As Big Dan hinted to you: get real. You have to halve the power claims of most of the popular AVR's (since the numbers are mostly only true with one channel drivven) before comparing them to proper amps.
$400 is pocket money for a 500 Watt amp! Only Behringer is cheaper, but this is hardly audiophile stuff.
There are, IMO, 2 reasons to prefer separates: more power, yes, but also improving the sound quality by removing the hot amps from the (delicate) pre-amp section.
Get serious, the UPA-500 is not a 500 watt amp, you shouldn't put words in Dan's mouth, and he was referring to an Onkyo amp, not the receiver I mentioned(both my Onkyos can hit rated power at .1% THD with 5 channels driven).
Finally, you don't have to convert me on the beauty of separates, I'm already there with 2 systems. But the idea that typical heat of a receiver will affect SQ is not the main reason that separates can acheive better SQ.
Touchy, aren't we?
I - in return - have nothing against Onkyo: if I had to pick a new pre-pro today, the PR-SC5509 would be the likely choice since it has 9.2 DSX. But the specs I have seen about the power rating of Onkyo AVR's is always like this:
@ 6 ohm (a higher number than @ 8 ohm) @ 1kHz IEC, not RMS 1 channel drivven.
They don't do anything different vs the other popular brands of course.
If my budget was $1,000 I would be very tempted for Emotiva Ultra separates vs spending it on a new AVR. And you'd save in the long run, since an amp is good for a long time. A cunning plan from Big Dan!
You're welcome. Now, I don't know if the UPA-500 is actually rated at distortion at full power. From what I'm gathering it clearly states the great 0.01% figure is at 1 watt only. And says nothing about measuring it at full load. If you look at the other figures on the website, they make it clear that the XPA-2 does 0.1% THD fully driven. The same was the case with all the other amps.
But THD is notably absent from the mini-x. And with the UPA-500, the THD rating is @ 1 watt only. I wonder if the mini-x uses the same design as the UPA-500. I think that it's a lot to assume that THD is 0.1% fully driven unless it's clearly stated. All this would be made much clearer if they released a full blown spec sheet for both the UPA-500 and the mini-x.
I hate to point out this type of mistake, but Emotiva has reported the distortion levels at BOTH 1 Watt and at FULL RATED POWER.
Signal to Noise Ratio (8 Ohm load): > 106 dB at 1 watt (A-weighted) > 117 dB at rated power (A-weighted)
These are excellent SNR measurements, that very few AVR are able to match, if any. As a matter of fact, the UPA-500 has better SNR measurements than the XPA-5. Other than not having monstrous power output the UPA-500 is an exceptionally good power amp. There are many excellent speakers than can be driven far beyond reference levels with the UPA-500 while maintaining superb distortion level.
The Onkyo 509 reports its SNR at rated power to be 100 dB, which is 17 dB lower than the UPA-500's SNR.
That's good to know. I'm not that well versed in audio and I just assumed THD and SNR as being significantly different. As for the SNR rating compared to the X-series, I noticed that these use the words A-weighted. What difference does that make to the SNR rating? From my cursory reading it makes the A-weighted score equal to a lesser unweighted score. But anyway, I agree with you, when they release the audio precision data (I didn't know they did as the mini-x doesn't seem to have it) it will clear up a lot of my questions. Thanks for the response.
I - in return - have nothing against Onkyo: if I had to pick a new pre-pro today, the PR-SC5509 would be the likely choice since it has 9.2 DSX. But the specs I have seen about the power rating of Onkyo AVR's is always like this:
@ 6 ohm (a higher number than @ 8 ohm) @ 1kHz IEC, not RMS 1 channel drivven.
They don't do anything different vs the other popular brands of course.
If my budget was $1,000 I would be very tempted for Emotiva Ultra separates vs spending it on a new AVR. And you'd save in the long run, since an amp is good for a long time. A cunning plan from Big Dan!
I concur with your thoughts on current Onkyo AVRs, and most other brands have similar ratings and performance from their amp sections.
If my budget was 1000, I'd do what I just did, bought an Outlaw amp for 850, and next spring or so I'll look to spend around 1500 on a pre pro. The Emo, Outlaw and perhaps Marantz will have new units that are sorted out by then.
BTW, the new amp has breathed new life into my system with my Onkyo 876 now doing pre amp duties only. The sound is cleaner with more accurate bass, something that I wasn't expecting. I've heard that higher damping factor specs gives better control of bass, and the Outlaw amp is at 400 while the Onkyo is 50. Don't know if it's true, but the sound is definitely improved.
I wish the Emotiva amps were rated for Damping factor.
Joined: May 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 5,374 Location: NORTH CAROLINA
Re: UPA-500 « Reply #245 on May 10, 2012, 8:43pm »
Actually, Damping Factor has very little meaning in rating audio equipment. To begin with there are no established standards for calculating the Damping Factor. Once the factor goes beyond a certain point, how do you interpret what it means?
You say the amp you bought has a damping factor of 400 and you wiished Emotiva provide the Damping Factor for their amps. Did you notice the new UPA-500 has a damping factor of 500? Does that mean it is a better amp than the $850 power amp you just bought? There are many meaning factors for evaluating the quality of a power amp; and one of the least important is damping factor.
Re: UPA-500 « Reply #246 on May 10, 2012, 10:08pm »
Thanks for the sermon on damping factor, but that's actually a pretty good number for the little Emo amp. How about crosstalk? I'm getting interested in this stupid amp!
Thanks for the sermon on damping factor, but that's actually a pretty good number for the little Emo amp. How about crosstalk? I'm getting interested in this stupid amp!
That was no sermon but a very accurate assessment of damping factor. Some brands (like Rotel if I remember correctly) tend to make a big deal out of a spec that the very large majority of amp experts agree has no effect on amp performance when it is in the 50-100 range or more.
We have gone thru this before and I have listed numerous very high priced and highly regarded amps that have lower or similar damping figures than Emo. Most knowledgeable folks forget the damping factor rant. Some read one comment that it affects bass performance audibly and go to the extreme in proselytizing damping factors.
Other: Outlaw LFM-1 Plus sub, Gramma, SMS-1, Panny 50" 1080P Plasma, Oppo 83, Panny DMR-E85HS, Sony STR DA4ES, Furman Elite -15 DMi, Technics SL-QD33/Shure -M91HE, Mirage Omni S-8 sub
Thanks for the sermon on damping factor, but that's actually a pretty good number for the little Emo amp. How about crosstalk? I'm getting interested in this stupid amp!
That was no sermon but a very accurate assessment of damping factor. Some brands (like Rotel if I remember correctly) tend to make a big deal out of a spec that the very large majority of amp experts agree has no effect on amp performance when it is in the 50-100 range or more.
We have gone thru this before and I have listed numerous very high priced and highly regarded amps that have lower or similar damping figures than Emo. Most knowledgeable folks forget the damping factor rant. Some read one comment that it affects bass performance audibly and go to the extreme in proselytizing damping factors.
Amen!
Another post by a member who is "not acting like a healthy individual here" (quote from DYohn, PhD)
Well that was even more sermonizing than RR! And you are assuming that when one calls another post sermon that they are calling it untrue. Not true. It means that one is heavy handedly declaring one's belief's on a matter.
I well know how damping factor is regarded folks. If I was Davey, here's where I'd say something like, "Get a life. Stop whining." But since I refrain from treating people like that, I'll say that I beg to differ.
On just about every spec, there can be disagreement on its importance in the overall picture. I believe the current theory is that anything over 50 is overkill, or so I've read. But there are other theories that say it's more important than that. Digital amps have reputations for amazing bass control and their Damping factor can be 2000 or more. But of course other qualities of the amp comes into play.
Anyway, I will repeat myself. I wish Emotiva would list the damping factor of their amps.(the UPA-500 is the only one I've seen. Interesting that they release the spec for this amp, but not the others.) I also wish they would release the spec for crosstalk. The old UPA series multi channel amps had pedestrian crosstalk numbers. Will the new UPA's have better crosstalk?
Joined: Oct 2011 Gender: Male Posts: 60 Location: Woodward Ave
Re: UPA-500 « Reply #255 on May 11, 2012, 7:49am »
I'm somewhat confused about the specs and I am hoping some of the amplifier gurus on this forum can help me understand this better.
When I first looked at the pictures of the UPA-500 I was making some assumptions on the power supply of the unit, since the specs were not yet released. The back said 450W max, so I assumed this meant approx a 350-400VA transformer. The specs list 0.85kVA. Aren't these two things related? Again I am not an expert so I am wondering if I am off track in my assumption. Can the transformer be bigger than the Max power rating?
I am also confused by the 45,000 uF per supply rail. I see 4-10000uf caps in the picture. Does this mean each rail shares these caps?
Sorry for the dumb questions just trying to understand better.
Joined: Jan 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 5,860 Location: Columbia, MO
Re: UPA-500 « Reply #256 on May 11, 2012, 7:52am »
All the personal attacks, calling people out, etc needs to stop immediately in both of the UPA-500 threads. We are all adults here and I don't feel like babysitting. Lets keep this fun and informative, but if it strays from that, both of these threads will get locked down.
![[Home]](http://emotiva.com/images/lounge/homeBtn.jpg "[Home]")
![[New Topics]](http://emotiva.com/images/lounge/newBtn.jpg "[New Topics]")
![[Help]](http://emotiva.com/images/lounge/helpBtn.jpg "[Help]")
![[Search]](http://emotiva.com/images/lounge/searchBtn.jpg "[Search]")
![[Login]](http://emotiva.com/images/lounge/loginBtn.jpg "[Login]")
![[Register]](http://emotiva.com/images/lounge/registerBtn.jpg "[Register]")
![[Search This Thread]](http://images.proboards.com/search2.gif "[Search This Thread]")
![[Share Topic]](http://images.proboards.com/new/buttons/share.png "[Share Topic]")
![[Print]](http://images.proboards.com/buttons/print.gif "[Print]")
Author
![[avatar]](http://lh3.ggpht.com/_V4NyIonn8R8/TF_f9MLEjBE/AAAAAAAAAJg/b_yjTczfTWc/s64-c/NewAlbum908101258.jpg "[avatar]")
![[homepage]](http://images.proboards.com/buttons/www_sm.gif "[homepage]")
Logged
![[avatar]](http://images.proboards.com/avatars/boyandmower.gif "[avatar]")
![[avatar]](http://images.proboards.com/avatars/devil.gif "[avatar]")
![[avatar]](http://i489.photobucket.com/albums/rr258/knuckleheadjones/lounge_blue_martini.jpg "[avatar]")
![[avatar]](http://home.comcast.net/~bootman/files/mr.inredible.gif "[avatar]")
![[avatar]](http://i474.photobucket.com/albums/rr101/chuckienut/3db72830-cb31-447b-b7a3-4f870d63641e_zps95f069c3.jpg "[avatar]")
![[image]](http://i474.photobucket.com/albums/rr101/chuckienut/XL_MC2KW_front1-1.jpg "[image]")
![[avatar]](http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/mcla_butt_helmet_2012-3.jpg "[avatar]")
![[avatar]](http://home.comcast.net/~geebolt/vp1.jpg "[avatar]")
![[avatar]](http://distilleryimage3.s3.amazonaws.com/583deb0a829b11e1af7612313813f8e8_7.jpg "[avatar]")
![[avatar]](http://www.ebcsgvchoir.com/Images/yojimboavatar.jpg "[avatar]"){kind=avatar}
![[avatar]](http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i368/stiehl11/IMGP6912.jpg "[avatar]")