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Post by jjmatrix on Aug 20, 2012 21:30:52 GMT -5
I've been thinking about this for while as it pertains to my particular case (I have 1 UMC-1 and 2 x UPA-1s not working any more). For me, as I live in Canada, shipping the amps back it almost not worth it and it's a hassle for sure; while I'm not an Electronic Technician, I can certainly troubleshoot an amplifier with a proper diagram.
I think that an agreement in which is stipulated that any changes/replacements done not by Emotiva will void the warranty is more than adequate, and I don't think any customers will have any issues with that.
What do you think?
PS 1 - I've already asked, but the answer was somehow evasive. They "may" be willing to send a diagram, but only for the sub-board that may be causing the issue, if identified with some certainty.
PS 2 - Drawing the diagram shouldn't be a big issue for any one inclined to spend the time; I just think that it's fair that a complete diagram should included with the Manual.
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Post by Chuck Elliot on Aug 20, 2012 21:53:56 GMT -5
I'm kind of torn on this. Although I would very much like to have a schematic for every piece of equipment that I own, I understand the concept of protecting the intellectual property of a company.
Another reason this is a issue for me is that my company seals our electronics in epoxy to prevent reverse engineering. That and encoding of firmware updates to protect from the same.
I've had experience with my previous company's designs stolen by an Indian sub-contractor.
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Post by jjmatrix on Aug 20, 2012 22:48:18 GMT -5
I understand your point of view; I think my problem is that I believe that I own the device, and for my own personal use, schematics should be included.
As for stealing, I don't really think a power amplifier is such a complicated device that requires a crazy level of protection. Besides, as I said, as it is it can be easily reversed engineered.
I absolutely respect the money and effort companies like Emotiva put into a product; I also agree that if company X comes up with a copy of UPA-1 for example, they should be fines/punished/taken out of business.
To be clear, I'm only advocating fair use.
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Post by Chuck Elliot on Aug 20, 2012 22:58:49 GMT -5
I understand exactly what you're saying too!
I was only trying to point out that I understand if company decides not to provide schematics.
There have been companies that roll both ways. Apple/IBM is the classic. The technical manual that came with the original PC had full schematics and code listings for the BIOS. Apple has always been pretty closed.
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Post by GreenKiwi on Aug 20, 2012 23:25:13 GMT -5
I think that it is great if they do provide information, particularly to help individuals where shipping is prohibitively expensive.
I can understand both sides and think that the best is actually having someone help through the debugging process to get to the problem rather than giving schematics and having users wonder off trying to "fix" a bug and really really mess things up.
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Post by garbulky on Aug 20, 2012 23:32:30 GMT -5
Well, I have to say that if I ran a company, then I would not provide it. It may highlight any design/cost cutting flaws and compromises etc more easily than if the circuit diagram was not provided. It would hurt business more than the rewards that could be reaped by the diy'ers buying the amp. Also if the amp was very expensive, showing much cheap nearly identical amps with diagrams that compare to it would hurt business even further.
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Post by wizardofoz on Aug 21, 2012 0:14:28 GMT -5
Well I am surprised you can't get some help from emo on the 2 upa-1s not working... I have had several glitches and emo has always sent me parts to replace anything that was determined to be the issue...I have also done many such replacements on others equipment under the same send out of replacements boards etc here in Singapore. Not sure that canada would be any different if you asked.
you havent detailed what the issue is with your UPA-1's ... Ive had a couple with faulty front panels...one panel came as a replacement with a similar issue but a second replacement was good as gold.
Emo has never questioned the issue or sending of parts and I find this a most effective means of repairs.
This sets Emotiva apart in my mind as a world class supporter of their brand and customers when things break.
Most recently was an XPA3 with a broken RCA... they were on it in a day and I asked if they could possibly send 3 RCA's instead of just the one...no issue at all and 3 arrived by mail. THAT IS SERVICE!!!
Having the Amp diagrams would be handy perhaps once any warranty has expired, but I would think its probably not cost effective for them to be repaired as they have sent out out a complete amp module on several occasions to be replaced. A comment to me from Emotiva on the matter was that its not worth the repair time to send it back and do component level parts replacements...just toss it. so I do just that.
If you are up for DIY repairs then good luck to you... I am but where the manufacturer is so open to help restore their products to working in the most cost effective way then I see no need to include a diagram. If they support the units after the 5 year warranty then that's great but I would say in this day and age if you get 5 years form an amp that's a good run IMHO
ALL THAT SAID...
Maybe after a product is discontinued or past a certain point in its life cycle they could make circuits or a service manual available to download. That I would find helpful. Especially if they also provided an updated parts substitution for things like transistors used.
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Post by sharkman on Aug 21, 2012 1:09:42 GMT -5
I live in canada and have purchased 3 Emotiva components. I think the thread starter should step up and pay The Man.
You bought 2 amps and a processor that would have cost you around 3000 had you bought them from any other manufacturer. So you saved 1700 or so going in. Now there are warranty claims to make and this is what you should have been prepared to do worst case scenario. So spend a little of that money you saved initially, and protect that investment you made.
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Post by garbulky on Aug 21, 2012 3:32:11 GMT -5
I disagree Sharkman. Three of his components are broken! That's not good. However, emotiva shouldn't be made to send him a circuit diagram. They have a service model and that's what they are obligated to provide not design secrets. However, if I was them (and I'm not) - considering all his emotiva components busted - , I would give him some sort of discount or free shipping of some sort on his boxes.
Then he would likely report how nice they were because of his special situation and brownie points would be won for emotiva and the sales they would make off the reputation will be far greater than shipping him some boxes.
Instead what we have is a sad post right here of multiple failures for reasons unknown and international customers left alienated due to shipping costs on return policies.
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hemster
Global Moderator 
Particle Manufacturer
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Post by hemster on Aug 21, 2012 4:49:59 GMT -5
Wiring diagrams are not usually included with most of the appliances I own. Likely most users won't be able to put them to good use. There is no circuit diagram supplied with my TV for instance. Or my Oppo. Or my VW...
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Post by jjmatrix on Aug 21, 2012 6:41:55 GMT -5
@ wizardofoz: I never said that Emo was unwilling to help. We are in the middle of at least trying to get it to work, but it's a slow process. I agree that they seem open for discussions, which is great; one of the reasons I picked this brand was all the nice feedback I've seen in regards to their customer service. I'm not disappointed, I'm just curious what you guys think. sharkman: I understand a man's "junk" may be another's treasure. But from there to state that these components are worth $3000 is a little bit of a stretch to be honest. Also, it's not about the money; I am willing to pay The Man when it makes sense; I just think that schematics would be a nice touch. hemster: bryston.com/PDF/Schematics/3B-8BST_SCHEMATICS.pdf for example :-). Some do, some don't. |
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sorbe
Sensei
"Don't cross the streams..."
Posts: 673
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Post by sorbe on Aug 21, 2012 7:02:03 GMT -5
As far as I can tell, Emotiva bends over backward to help customers with warranty issues. They already seem to be all about helping build a satisfied user base.
Asking them to give away schematics to their products would mostly help their competition since 99.99% of the customers could not make good use of them. Also, it's a lot like asking a software company to give away their source code that they developed. I would not expect it of them -- nor would I ask it of them.
This is really an individual warranty support issue, there is no need to give away trade secrets.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2012 10:45:36 GMT -5
Yes, supply the schematic with manual.
Amplifiers, and most electronics are pretty generic, with few "trade secrets". If the maker thinks they really have soming special, they can ink out the part numbers or get vague in that part of the schematic.
I've done a lot of electronic repair and service. With a schematic troubleshooting is trivial. Without a schematic you can waste hours trying to figure out what is going on, making repair non-economic.
Ten years from now, if your amplifier dies, you can spend $100 freighting it back to EMO, if you've still got the box, it they are still in business, if they service out-of-warrenty amps. Or you can drive it over to the local technician with the schematic, and he'll replace the blown $3 transistor after 15 minutes of troubleshooting.
You can get plans and service manuals for almost anything; cars, airplanes, Hewlett-Packard test equipment. Why not an amplifier? With some businesses, a condition of sale is that service manuals must be supplied.
I was able to download the schematics for my Bryston Amp and Adcom preamp, off the internet from their websites.
Sincerely
/blair,
Canadian...
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Post by sharkman on Aug 21, 2012 11:36:20 GMT -5
sharkman: I understand a man's "junk" may be another's treasure. But from there to state that these components are worth $3000 is a little bit of a stretch to be honest. Also, it's not about the money; I am willing to pay The Man when it makes sense; I just think that schematics would be a nice touch. The reason I suggested around 3000 was because mono block amps are not cheap. Try to find one for under 1000 bucks. Same with processors, you will not find anything under 1000 new. That's just the market place as it stands. So if you had bought another brand you would have spent at least that much. It is alarming that all three units are defective though, and Emo will surely take that into account when dealing with you. Are you that confident that you could fix th based off a diagram? If you screw up then no more warranty and five years is worth a lot. It's your money, but I'd deal with Emo instead on a shipping discount, do you know how much it would cost? Where in Canada do you live? Also could you describe what happened and how all 3 products became, as you put it, "not working"? |
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Post by jackfish on Aug 21, 2012 11:40:46 GMT -5
Back in the day, most hifi equipment came with schematics and service manuals were also available. Couldn't hurt to provide one on request.
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Post by GreenKiwi on Aug 21, 2012 11:56:23 GMT -5
Well, I think that there is "still being serviced" and "out of service life". I'm much more in support of schematic availability once models are out of service life. But again, I just appreciate anything offered.
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Post by jjmatrix on Aug 21, 2012 21:19:06 GMT -5
...It is alarming that all three units are defective though, and Emo will surely take that into account when dealing with you. Are you that confident that you could fix th based off a diagram? If you screw up then no more warranty and five years is worth a lot.... ...Also could you describe what happened and how all 3 products became, as you put it, "not working"? Sorry... I don't know why I didn't post this before: All three pieces died during a lightning storm; I wasn't home, but my father in law was. No physical signs on the roof, outside walls etc. Just about 12 electronic devices got zapped. FACTS 1. The audio equipment was off. 2. They were plugged into a dedicated 20 AMP line, via a Monster surge protector. 3. 4 other device plugged into the same outlet survived: 70" Sharp Quattron, Sony Playstation (the old "fat" one), a cassette deck and a Carver preamp which was on!!. 4. My Axiom M80 speakers got zapped as well; one has the lows out, while the other, interestingly enough... the mids and the highs. 5. All fuses are OK. BEHAVIOUR UMC-1: turns on, reads "Loading..." on the front panel and the dots are moving as it's loading. after 5 seconds it shuts off, and on again. Rinde and repeat. I talked to Emo about it; they said it may be a firmware issue, so try loading the DSP codes and the latest firmware, which I did. Same results, and this is where the UMC-1 troubleshooting communications stopped. UPA-1 "A": turns on (the panel anyway) but no click from the relays and no sound (or any voltage by that matter coming out). UPA-1 "B": turns on, sound comes on, but it turns itself off in 3-4 seconds, entering in fault mode (power button goes to amber, and the LED is blinking red. If I press the power button again, the same thing happens. PS I agree with the fact that monoblocks are expensive. |
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sorbe
Sensei
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Posts: 673
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Post by sorbe on Aug 21, 2012 21:37:39 GMT -5
You didn't say exactly which "Monster surge protector" you had, but I noticed this on their website for one of them: www.monstercable.com/productdisplay.asp?pin=5013 ("Read more information") This assumes you have the right 'paperwork' and they don't try to weasel out of paying of course...  |
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Post by anonymous on Aug 23, 2012 11:35:27 GMT -5
Lighting damage is pure random and it doesn't matter if the unit was on or off.
You just had some bad luck and the Monster unit did nothing but act as a power strip.
Go after the warranty.
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hemster
Global Moderator
Particle Manufacturer
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Post by hemster on Aug 23, 2012 16:11:58 GMT -5
@ wizardofoz: I never said that Emo was unwilling to help. We are in the middle of at least trying to get it to work, but it's a slow process. I agree that they seem open for discussions, which is great; one of the reasons I picked this brand was all the nice feedback I've seen in regards to their customer service. I'm not disappointed, I'm just curious what you guys think. sharkman: I understand a man's "junk" may be another's treasure. But from there to state that these components are worth $3000 is a little bit of a stretch to be honest. Also, it's not about the money; I am willing to pay The Man when it makes sense; I just think that schematics would be a nice touch. hemster: bryston.com/PDF/Schematics/3B-8BST_SCHEMATICS.pdf for example :-). Some do, some don't.Thanks for the link. Good to know that Bryston publish their schematics. However, I still think it's a case of " a select few do, most don't". Given that not many consumers would have use for this (I certainly would!) then it would be fine by me if the circuit diagrams were either supplied upon request or placed on a web site. |
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