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Post by paintedklown on Jul 9, 2011 17:34:32 GMT -5
Hello gang. I have battled this "demon" many, many times...and just when I think I am about to figure it out...BAM! My system sounds off. Here is what I do know about subwoofer placement/setup, it's not much... To find the best spot in your room to place the subwoofer you sit the subwoofer in your main listening position while playing bass test tones. While this is happening, you crawl around on the floor until the bass sounds full and lush. This is the spot you will sit your sub. Place your sub in the spot you found with the "bass crawl". Now aim the sub in any given direction and play bass test tones. Sit in your main seating position and note the quality of the bass. Repeat this process, aiming the sub a different direction each time. North, south, east, and west. Take note of what direction sounded the best and aim your sub in that direction. Now that the subwoofer is in place, it is time to set the phase. What I do is set my main speakers to full range and put my head in between the subwoofer and one of the main speakers to listen. Now I adjust the volume of the sub until the speaker and sub have matching output levels. The Emo Ultra 12 subwoofer's phase control is at 50hz, so in this case we will play a bass tone at 50 hz and adjust the subwoofers phase until the bass sounds rich, and full, it becomes almost deeper sounding (to me anyway). Since I have two subs, I sit one on top of the other, facing the same direction. Now I will turn on the second subwoofer, and match it up to the first one. Then I run YPAO and pray it sounds correct, it never seems to.  Don't get me wrong here folks. It does sound good. Downright GREAT when playing bass heavy music (dance/rap) BUT, it always seems like the bass is too much, or bloated sounding when listening to "regular" music. At the same time, movies sound as if they do not have enough bass and I have to turn it up for them...Obviously, I am doing something wrong here. Can any of you audio experts help me get these set up properly?  It seriously bugs me that I just can't seem to nail down setting up my subs.     Any advice/help will be appreciated. Especially if it is things I can do without spending money or buying more gear/equipment.  P.S. If there is any additional equipment/tools/harware/software needed, then please list them along with your suggestion. Also please try to recommend products that can be easily found on the web or in stores. A link to said product would be perfect!  |
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Post by paintedklown on Jul 9, 2011 20:30:30 GMT -5
Get a new receiver or pre/pro with Audyssey MultEQ XT or XT32. I have considered going this route, actually. Is it really that good? Is it pretty accurate? I assume it will apply EQ to all seven channels and the subs as well, to create a flat frequency response? Or does it do something else? Any Audyssey users care to chime in with their experiences? Also, I have read that Audyssey will destroy your imaging and sound stage...any truth to that, or is it generally an all positive experience? All comments, tips, and/or suggestions are welcome.  |
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NorthStar
Seeker Of Truth
"And it stoned me to my soul" - Van Morrison
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Post by NorthStar on Jul 9, 2011 20:43:33 GMT -5
It will do for your subs what nobody else can do without external devices and measuring tools! For Movies it's great! For Music (Stereo), YMMV! But a lot of people prefer it over no EQ at all! And XT32 is THEE one! The Top Gun! ___________________________ Imaging? Are you imaginating my old thread?  |
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Post by paintedklown on Jul 9, 2011 21:59:42 GMT -5
Imaging? Are you imaginating my old thread? LOL, yeah. I actually am referring to that thread. It seemed to me that others agreed with you...unless my memory is fuzzy on that one. |
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NorthStar
Seeker Of Truth
"And it stoned me to my soul" - Van Morrison
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Post by NorthStar on Jul 9, 2011 22:29:46 GMT -5
Dave, it was obvious you were referring to my old thread regarding Audyssey engaged with Stereo only Music, as the main accent was on 'Imaging'. And it was deteriorating it!
Dave, your B&W 684s, how low can they go?
Also, what kind of music on average do you listen to?
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Post by paintedklown on Jul 10, 2011 0:00:55 GMT -5
Dave, it was obvious you were referring to my old thread regarding Audyssey engaged with Stereo only Music, as the main accent was on 'Imaging'. And it was deteriorating it! Dave, your B&W 684s, how low can they go? Also, what kind of music on average do you listen to? According to the B&W web site the 684s are rated -3db @ 44hz, and -6db @ 34hz. IMO, this is very accurate and I feel like they have what I would considerable "usable" (you can still hear it pretty well) down to 30hz. I know that is pretty good, but I want to be able to get all the way down to 20hz +/-3db. In my searching, not too many towers can achieve that. The ones that do cost more than I could EVER afford. www.focal.com/en/home-audio-loudspeakers/hifi-speakers/floorstanding-speakers/grande-utopia-em.phpThat's why I have the fascination with trying to learn how to properly integrate subs into a system. That way I don't have to give up on the dream of being able to accurately reproduce the human hearing range. ;D |
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Post by roadrunner on Jul 10, 2011 0:53:43 GMT -5
Dave Do you have a SPL meter? Have you been manually setting up your speakers? If the answer is yes, one of the most useful tools I have found for calibrating my system is available from Reference Recordings. It comes with written instructions on how to use the various cuts to improve every aspect of your system setup, including the sub woofer. ============================================================== XLO/ REFERENCE RECORDINGS TEST & BURN-IN CD "The Absolute Sound Super Disc List" This is THE step-by-step guide to setting up and fine-tuning your audio or home theatre system. Roger Skoff of XLO Electric (innovators in the field of cables and interconnects) and "Prof." Keith O. Johnson (audio guru and co-inventor of HDCD) lead you through a quick and easy system set-up. Included are tracks dealing with Balance, Wiring and Polarity, Speaker Placement, Soundstaging, Imaging and Depth, Absolute Phase, Component Demagnetization and Burn-In, PLUS a varied selection of RR jazz and classics to show off your fully-tweaked system! (Music includes: "Stormy Weather"; "Shiny Stockings"; GOULD: Derivations; JANACEK: Sinfonietta (excerpts); BIEBL: Ave Maria; WEINBERGER: Polka and Fugue) RX-1000 - 24K GOLD CD ONLY $29.98 ============================================================== Just click on the link below and you will be ready to order your copy. www.referencerecordings.com/SAMPLE.asp |
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Post by jlafrenz on Jul 10, 2011 11:44:37 GMT -5
You have too much bass because when you co-locate subs or stack them you gain upwards of 6db. Just reduce the gain on each sub a little.
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DYohn
Emo VIPs 
Posts: 18,487
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Post by DYohn on Jul 10, 2011 12:16:22 GMT -5
The best thing to start with is to use an SPL meter and not your ears to find the "best" subwoofer location and to set level and phase. The next most likely thing you can do is adjust main speaker toe-in while metering using full-spectrum noise, and add some room treatments in at least the first reflection points.
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Post by paintedklown on Jul 10, 2011 20:56:17 GMT -5
Roadrunner, Thanks for the link and info. To answer your question, no, I do not have an SPL meter. There are about a 1000 different options available, but it seems to me that the Radio Shack analog spl meter is the accepted standard (if there is a better option, can someone please enlighten me?). I have went to several different radio shack stores but never find any in stock. As far as actual system setup, I have attempted to keep a minimalist approach. Analog out from my CD player, into the multichannel inputs on my receiver (set to pure direct mode), analog out to my amps, speaker wire to my speakers. I like the clarity, detail, sound stage, etc I get when doing this...BUT, I am having some issues with sibilance and I would like deeper, bass. I have decided to try running my gear as a "regular Joe" would. Running the automatic calibration and using my BD player as a CD transport (HDMI into the receiver). It does help considerably with the sibilance (and I mean a LOT), but alas...my sub just doesn't seem to blend well and I feel as if I am losing resolution, detail, sound stage, etc...maybe it's all in my head. I am going to listen to my system set up as my Yamaha's YPAO has it for a few days, and see if I "adjust" to having a different sound. I do think I need an SPL meter though, and I would LOVE to know how to use/utilize REW. One thing, my Yamaha has a lot of different options for EQ adjustments, and they can be done for each of the seven full range channels. I would imagine that an experienced installer/tweaker with the proper gear and knowledge could "milk" better performance from my gear. What sucks though, is that you cannot EQ the sub/LFE channel at all. It just gives you several options from 40 to 200 hz for adjusting the crossover point. It's just knowing what adjusting band gain, frequency gain, Q gain, etc. all mean. I think ideally, if you knew what effect tweaking these parameters have on the sound, along with an accurate way to measure/monitor your changes (a real time analyzer perhaps) you could set everything properly, and have a really good sounding system. I think that is why so many experienced users on this forum love the UMC-1 so much. From what I have read on here, it seems infinitely adjustable/tweakable. Thanks again for the advice and suggestions all. |
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Post by jlafrenz on Jul 10, 2011 21:06:50 GMT -5
Have you tried having each of your subs in 2 different spots instead of stacked? This may help smooth out the frequency response and blend in better with your mains.
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Post by paintedklown on Jul 10, 2011 21:14:43 GMT -5
Have you tried having each of your subs in 2 different spots instead of stacked? This may help smooth out the frequency response and blend in better with your mains. I have to admit that I have not. From my understanding, having your subs in two separate locations is extremely helpful in obtaining a smooth low end, but (embarrassingly) I have to confess that I wasn't sure about how to properly place the second sub in the room. That's why I picked one good spot and stacked 'em! ;D |
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Post by jlafrenz on Jul 10, 2011 21:38:11 GMT -5
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NorthStar
Seeker Of Truth
"And it stoned me to my soul" - Van Morrison
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Post by NorthStar on Jul 10, 2011 22:31:21 GMT -5
Yeah Dave, the analog Rat Shack meter is thee one, the tool to have in your Home Theater toolbox. Only $50, can't beat that!
And yes too to two (too-too-too ;D) separately positioned subs for best overall balance in your room.
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Post by Nemesis.ie on Jul 11, 2011 7:52:49 GMT -5
Sorry to get to the party late, but I hope I can add "something". I may have missed some of the points questions, but here goes: Regarding Audyssey XT32 (or otherwise) I believe it's a "set it and forget it" thing, so for the question of bass sounding right in movies and music, IMO you need to put a house curve on your sub to addresss this. To do that you need manual EQ, well some system that allows a house curve, it would be nice to be able to enter a HC into your processor. To this end, I use a MiniDSP, I have the sub set with a 12db rise (logarithmic) from 120Hz down to 14Hz. This seems to provide full but not overpowering bass for music while at the low end, lots of slam and shake for HT. This is likely room and personal preference/hearing dependent to some extent, a lot of folks like the "6db from 90 down to 30 Hard Knee HC" and indeed that is pretty good for music but does not boost the 30 and down region enough for HT slam IME. If you have e.g. a MiniDSP, you can play with this as much as you like, applying your own HC at the same time as smoothing out the response - win-win. I really would encourge folks to buy a calibrated mic and gear to connect up REW (Behringer UAC202 is brilliant and cheap) and measure their room, it's the only way to really know what you are hearing and how changes affect the sound etc. A measurement kit (without the computer) is likely under $150 including a mic stand and the basic MiniDSP (which is fine for sub use) is under $150 inc. shipping. So, for $300 (plus a computer) you have the tools to massage your bass. How many % of your audio spend is that? Likely a fairly low number and a bargain when you hear what it will do for you. |
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Post by roadrunner on Jul 11, 2011 12:34:11 GMT -5
Dave A good place to read about how to use the SPL meter and how to place multiple subs is to check out SVS Sound's web site. They also sell Ovation Software's Avia DVD software to walk you through the various steps to set up an entire HT system. SVS sells the Radio Shack analog SPL for $44. The web site also has an excellent FAQ section that will answer many of your Questions and recommend software, music and DVDs to assist you in fine tuning your speakers/subs. Click the link below to see the RS Meter. svsound.com/questions-faqs.cfm#meterHave fun. I also highly recommend the CD from Reference Recording that I mentioned in one of my posts above this one. It is geared to calibrating your speakers and sub woofers. The AVIA DVD includes setting up and performing in-depth adjustments to the video as well as the audio. There are also Blu-ray discs for doing setup for the whole HT. The Disney Set Up disc is supposed to be one of the best and easyist to use. |
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NorthStar
Seeker Of Truth
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Post by NorthStar on Jul 11, 2011 13:56:44 GMT -5
Nemesis, with Audyssey MultEQ Pro you have access to certain parameters and different house curves. You can modify a house curve up to a certain point.
- And you can choose a different one to your own taste and room!
* Because you are using a PC, they are stored in it and can be recalled. And modified.
______________
And Dave, with the Rat Schack meter, don't forget the 'Compensation Chart'!
{That is for adjusting, compensating the levels at low frequencies because of the meter's inaccuracies at this audio frequency range.}
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Post by Nemesis.ie on Jul 14, 2011 11:19:07 GMT -5
Nemesis, with Audyssey MultEQ Pro you have access to certain parameters and different house curves. You can modify a house curve up to a certain point. - And you can choose a different one to your own taste and room! * Because you are using a PC, they are stored in it and can be recalled. And modified. True, but it a) costs lots of $$$ that could buy something else and b) you still have to play with it manually so you could get some other gear for that. The best might be XT32 (or Trinnov) in your processor AND a manual EQ system for your subs. |
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Post by jackfish on Oct 4, 2011 11:26:45 GMT -5
For $100 you can get an Elemental Designs eQ.2 and easily acoustically shape a sub to your room, even with suboptimal placement.
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Descry
Minor Hero
Music keeps my sanity
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Post by Descry on Nov 26, 2012 20:58:11 GMT -5
This option is FREE
Go to soundoctor.com read his white papers And follow the set up instructions to the tee.
If your not happy after this then think about investing in more equipment but if you don't get the basics correct it will never sound "correct"
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