Joined: Mar 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 1,432 Location: Western Wisconsin
Re: We Don't need God to be good « Reply #223 on May 10, 2011, 6:57pm »
Non-belief is just that, it is not a belief. Atheism is not a belief, as much as some would like to define it as such, it just comes from a lack of scientific evidence in the support of the supernatural. Atheists see no credible empirical or scientific evidence for the supernatural and therefore reject the notion as one only originating from human ignorance. One does not have to believe in anything to accomplish that.
13.3" MacBook Air, 4GB RAM, 256GB SSD, iTunes/BitPerfect MacBook Air SuperDrive Western Digital My Book Essential 2TB USB HD Schiit Bifrost USB DAC Emotiva USP-1, ERC-1 and two UPA-1s Pro-Ject Xpression III and AT440MLa AKAI AT-2600 and Harman Kardon TD4400 Grado SR80i Magnepan MMG Magnestands Rythmik Audio F12
"If going to church makes you a christian, does going into a garage make you a car?"
I saw this online lol. Thought it was pretty funny
Being a christian, is your relationship to the person...Jesus Christ. Is he your Lord & Savior? Or, are you like those at his trial yelling: Away with Him! Away with Him! We will not have this Man to rule over us! Choose Christ & live.
Non-belief is just that, it is not a belief. Atheism is not a belief, as much as some would like to define it as such, it just comes from a lack of scientific evidence in the support of the supernatural. Atheists see no credible empirical or scientific evidence for the supernatural and therefore reject the notion as one only originating from human ignorance. One does not have to believe in anything to accomplish that.
If someone believes there is no god, that sounds like a belief to me lol
Belief is the psychological state in which an individual holds a proposition or premise to be true.
I choose God too. But to have all those excellent speakers and components connected to a receiver? I hope that you are not secretly building an ark! Get a separate pre/pro & power amp and enjoy the best of both worlds.
Blah Blah Blah......
I use it in straight mode. I know I should get another UPA1 and a UPA2 or a XPA3....etc and A UMC..... But I like what I have
Non-belief is just that, it is not a belief. Atheism is not a belief, as much as some would like to define it as such, it just comes from a lack of scientific evidence in the support of the supernatural. Atheists see no credible empirical or scientific evidence for the supernatural and therefore reject the notion as one only originating from human ignorance. One does not have to believe in anything to accomplish that.
Since science is the observance of the natural why would you say the supernatural must be proven by it also. It is as you say supernatural meaning more than natural therefore how could you expect science which is limited to the natural to prove it. Is this not also ignorance as you say?
Joined: Mar 2011 Gender: Male Posts: 653 Location: Rochester, NY
Re: We Don't need God to be good « Reply #230 on May 10, 2011, 8:31pm »
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The fact is, there should be NO CONCERN about goodness if there is no after life. For how will you be rewarded for your goodness.
What? I can't have morals because I don't believe in god? The whole point in being good is so that you can get a reward at the end? Seems like a pretty petty reason to be good. When a car crash happens in front of you and you rush to help it should be because it's the right thing to do...personally I don't wonder to myself as I'm running "I wonder what kind of reward I'm going to get for this". I'm sorry but morals do not equal religion, you can have either one without the other.
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Erwin, Darwin's Theory of Evolution is like swiss cheese; full of holes
The exact same statement applies towards religion as well. That except religion is one big hole instead of several smaller ones. "Because it just is" isn't a valid argument. Religion is circular logic at it's best
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Fossil records do not support the theory of evolution. For example, naturalists and evolutionists cannot explain the sudden appearance of dogs.
Huh? Discovery after discovery points to fossil records supporting evolution. Just because evidence hasn't been found yet for every single transition, doesn't mean they will never be found. I mean, excavating the entire planet could take a while. In the mean time...transitional fossils ARE being discovered.
As far as the dogs...I couldn't tell you, my canine knowledge is limited to the ancient breed of my Basenji. Science also cannot explain how Noah fit 2 of every animal on the planet into his ark, yet another mystical wonder.
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Take the big bang theory: A tremendous explosion created the planets and place them in perfect, precision order. It created water and it caused the introduction of life on earth only. These events have never been repeated! When last did we explode a huge building and it resulted in a city of apartment buildings? (BTW, where is all that radiation created from the big bang?). Think about Chernobyl and recenly in Japan and the radiation fall out and compare. . It is one of the reasons that the evolutionist have to assign these tremendous time periods to the creation of the earth and life forms. Buying time
I do not wish to offend. But, whether you believe in the Genesis creation or not, evolution is simply not a viable, alternative explanation for being here on earth.
You cannot state that life was only created on Earth. How do you know? Was there a universal safari trip I missed? I did enjoy your simple attempt at comparisons though The "God created man" theory is simply not a viable explanation of how we came to be. (see how that works?)
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I believe in God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit and as such it is my job as a Christian to tell you about it.
I'm extremely tolerant of most religions, I have friends who are Muslim and christian. My girlfriend is from Thailand and is a Buddhist(not so much of a religion). The ones I'm not tolerant of are those that feel they have to make sure they tell me about it regardless of my wishes, not necessarily here as I click on this thread when I come here, but in every day life. As long as you keep your god out of my government and keep him to yourself, that's fine by me.
If someone believes there is no god, that sounds like a belief to me lol Belief is the psychological state in which an individual holds a proposition or premise to be true.
Again, I don't believe there is a god, which is the absence of belief. You are obviously missing the distinction between believing there is no god and not believing there is a god. I don't believe there is no god, I just don't see any evidence that there is a god. So, belief is not involved.
be·lief/biˈlçf/Noun 1. An acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists. 2. Mental acceptance of and conviction in the truth, actuality, or validity of something.
I do not accept that the statement "there is a god" is true or that a god exists. There is no mental acceptance of and conviction in the truth, actuality or validity of the existence of a god. So by definition I do not believe.
13.3" MacBook Air, 4GB RAM, 256GB SSD, iTunes/BitPerfect MacBook Air SuperDrive Western Digital My Book Essential 2TB USB HD Schiit Bifrost USB DAC Emotiva USP-1, ERC-1 and two UPA-1s Pro-Ject Xpression III and AT440MLa AKAI AT-2600 and Harman Kardon TD4400 Grado SR80i Magnepan MMG Magnestands Rythmik Audio F12
Joined: Mar 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 699 Location: Suwanee, GA
Re: We Don't need God to be good « Reply #232 on May 10, 2011, 9:56pm »
For the science buffs, there are old earth Christians too. Resources like www.reason.org apply astrophysics to the Bible and align science with scripture accordingly. If you are interested, but prefer a lawyers perspective. The Case for Christ and related books by Lee Strobel also look to make an argument for the Christian religion.
As for transitional fossils, I will look more into that, but I should think given the number of species we know of today that there would be a huge number of fossils demonstrating clear paths of radical macro-evolution of species vs what I believe Darwin's evidence revealed as more micro-evolution within species. But then, I will study more on that.
I was born a Hindu but I consider myself non-denominational since I believe that religion is the bane of mankind. I have had many teachers who have provided me with answers to my questions. Among them is Neville Goddard. Neville has an interesting interpretation for the Bible, one that I subscribe to. Essentially, he says that each one of us is God and that eventually we will all be united to the supreme Godhead that we each represent.
Google his name and you will find many sites that publish his lectures, in text and audio formats. Neville talked about the Law Of Attraction back in the 1930s.
"In response to questions about the fear of eternal hell and damnation that many have, Neville replied with a quote from Scripture, "’Not one shall be lost in all my holy mountain.’ You are God and how could God eternally condemn Himself?" Until we awaken and make this discovery, he said, we are privileged to use a Law, given by God, to "cushion the blows of life.”[6] The Law, stated succinctly is this, In Neville's words: "Imagining creates reality"
I read Kenneth Ring's "Lessons From The Light" recently which deals with NDE's(Near Death Experiences) and Goddard's theory/belief sounds like it's right on the money if the tens of thousands of NDE cases are to be believed.
Joined: Feb 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 645 Location: Wisconsin
Re: We Don't need God to be good « Reply #235 on May 11, 2011, 2:00am »
Someone should post a link to this thread in the "What Happened To This Forum" thread, because on any other forum I've ever frequented, lurked, or only happened upon, this would have devolved into a shooting war ten pages back.
Kudos to the Lounge! Just goes to show how audio is a civilizing influence upon society. Go forth and spread the word!
I have to say though, that I believe any god which can be crammed into a box is a rather small god. And why should God be "supernatural"? Is the world not full of wonders, is the universe not? (Yeah, I know, horrors too—gotta take the darkness with the light) It seems to me that the only thing separating our understanding of God from the natural is our own lack of knowledge.
God lives in sunsets and bees that cannot possibly fly and air filled with snowflakes and in human voices raised in song. And maybe even in my UPA-1's! I personally like the mystery of it all. The fact that it makes me feel small and insignificant doesn't bother me because awe is good.
I hear God when certain people pick up their instruments and play and that's all I need to know. The rest is philosophy or politics and has little to do with God.
I believe there is some kind of force behind things, but I don't think that force bears much resemblance to the Gods mankind has created in its own image, for its own purposes. So I guess I'd have to say I don't believe in "God". I do however, have faith that we are given life for some purpose, granted self-awareness and intelligence (though this is debatable in regards to some) and the ability to think abstractly to accomplish something greater than ourselves. What that purpose is remains a mystery and is each individual's responsibility to discover for him/herself.
I don't think less of anybody because of their beliefs unless those beliefs somehow harm others. Everyone must find their own path, and it seems to me that all paths have the same destination in mind, if enlightenment and not self-aggrandizement or personal comfort or personal reward is the goal.
What I don't understand is how some scientist can stare at a mile-long equation explaining how things work and not see a design. The math was there all along, it's part of the code that defines the program. Isn't it sort of arrogant to assume that, just because we stumbled upon a bit of that code, we invented it? Isn't it possible that there are forms of mathematics that we haven't discovered yet, that explain things we haven't discovered or can't even perceive yet?
Why is everyone so intent upon forcing the infinite into their limited perception of the finite? Is mankind really so puerile and insecure?
Oh yeah, and I believe that there is no such thing as too many speakers!
FLAC > J. River 18 > Wasapi > ART USB cable > ART Legato > BJC Coax > AVA Ultra DAC > USP-1 > UPA-1 (X2) > LSA-1 Signature Monitors Salk Songsub DSPeaker Anti-Mode 8033 DIY speaker stands DIY 4S11 Bi-wire speaker cables Blue Jeans interconnects XDA-1 for TV and movies
Even the atheist will boast of how good & moral he is, and lavish praise on himself for his academic achievement (his own theory).
The fact is, there should be NO CONCERN about goodness if there is no after life. For how will you be rewarded for your goodness. Evolution has no moral. No good or bad. With that thinking, the man who kills grandma in the hopes of getting money from her purse, is only doing what he thinks he needs to do to survive. And, evolution is a theory of the survival of the fittest.
Regarding your first sentence: I plead guilty as charged! But without "goodness" we would have simply not survived until now. Even if I admit I am a culturist (ie, IMO my own post-Christian atheism is the best way of life, period) and don't like islam one bit, I would help out a muslim woman when her car broke down. Just like local politician Filip Dewinter once did, and he is regarded an infamous racist. Helping is simply hardwired in our genes, be it for your neighbour who's house suffers from the Mississippi floods or Japanese folks who lost everything in the Tsunami. Because we feel the pain too to some degree. Psychopaths don't feel other people's pain, grandma or not, because they are ill. Altruism makes us feel good because it's nice to stick together to face difficulties.
Survival of the FITTEST means "the most adapted to it's environment", not the one with the most muscles or longest breath. It's not marathon legend Gebresellasie who defines the world. Bill Gates is. In recent hystory, elephant tusks got smaller. That's because the males with the largest tusks were killed more often by poachers. In that environment (with hunters) it is more "fit" to have smaller tusks and as a result, these animals produce more ofspring. No elephant ever intended to have smaller tusks, ofcourse!
Erwin, Darwin's Theory of Evolution is like swiss cheese; full of holes.
I used to be an atheist. Then over the years I leaned toward being agnostic and finally, in my late 20's, I could not help but acknowledge the existence of God. The problem that atheists have is that they cannot explain the variety of life forms on this planet. Darwin tried really hard, but no cigar.
The discovery and unraveling of DNA made the Theory bullet proof IMO. True, there are gaps in fossils. These fossils tend to get lost after a few millions of years. But sometimes, we find some missing links, always supporting the Theory. The entrance of man in the America's keeps getting pushed further back in time because of new fossil evidence.
In Belgium, we have known dogs for at least 31,700 years according to wikipedia:
Archaeological evidence suggests the latest dogs could have diverged from wolves was roughly 15,000 years ago, although it is possible they diverged much earlier.[21] In 2008, a team of international scientists released findings from an excavation at Goyet Cave in Belgium declaring a large, toothy canine existed 31,700 years ago and ate a diet of horse, musk ox and reindee
The fact scientist argue and don't agree on some matters is no disproof of the Theory. I don't see how the info in the "dogspelledforward" link you provided is proof that God put dog on Earth.
I moved the opposite direction in religion. When I was 10-12, we had to go to the church once or twice a week (Catholic school). I believed (in God), but found the Church Rites laughable and hopelesly dated. I stopped to go to the Church as soon as the obligation to go was gone (my parents didn't go either, so..). My mom died when I was 17 and I deeply hoped she went to heaven. By the time I was 22-25, I had become agnost. Aged round 35, I read some books (Dawkins, Darwin's "Origin of" and hystory books) and thought real deep. I concluded that all religions were just man-made instruments to serve the purpose of making other people behave to the benefit of some other people. I am 45 now, and my atheism is as firm as ever!
Not getting personal, just stating a fact. When people make arguments that are directly contradicted by science and say it's because their religion told them so, I have no use for them. There can be no debate nor meaningful conversation when it begins with "I know I am right because god/the bible/some preacher says so and no matter what evidence is presented I will reject it because it will cause me to question what I think is true." Young earthers, "intelligent designers," climate change deniers and many others always fall into that category.
So, as my better judgement told me to yesterday, I will now stay out of this thread. Indeed, since it comes up whenever I click into the forum, I'll likely stay out of this space altogether for a while.
Regarding evolution - this is my opinion: I see how one species of a guppy can become two because of mutations, survival of the fitter mutation, etc. and from those they can branch out into even more species. But the way I see it, a fish will always be a fish. There is no way, in even a trillion zillion years that a fish would ever become a human being. Each type of animal was created and they do not all of a sudden or even gradually over a million years transform into some other type of animal. We did not used to be an insect (although some people definitely seem like they have cockroaches in their ancestry). Like I said, that's my opinion and as far as I know, science has not disproven my belief.
I recommend this book: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ancestors-Tale-Pilgrimage-Dawn-Life/dp/0752873210 Yeah, I know the author, Richard Dawkins, is about the most (in-) famous atheist alive. But this book is not about religion. I have the dutch translation. He starts with the humanoids and the ape-men. He uses genetic evidence to date our mutual ancestor.
Here are some dates in the book (not complete, but I used the same order), all in millions of years ago (MY):
MUTUAL ANCESTOR:
Chimpansee: 6 MY (Bonobo and normal Chimp split up 2 MY) Gorilla: 7 MY Urangutan: 14 Gibbons: 18 Eurasian monkees: 25 New-world monkees of the America's: 40 Lemures: 63 Rodents & rabbits: 75 Bats, Cats, Dogs, Horses, Rhino's, Pigs, Deer, Whales, Sealions: 85 (I am not saying that Bats and Cats are very closely related, just that 25 million generations ago (85MY), we share a common ancestor with both Cats and Bats) Elephants, etc: 105 Kangaroo, Opossum: 140 Duckbill: 180 (the Australian mamal that uses eggs to procreate) Sauropsides: 310 (Dino's, Lizzards, Crocs, Snakes, Ducks, reptiles and birds in general) Amfibia: 340 (Frogs) Lungfish: 417 (what do you do if the water you live in and where you breath via your gills keeps getting muddier and dryer? Maybe try to hide in a muddy hole and survive by also breathing a bit via your mouth. In the long run (MY), you develop lungs and can stay out of the water for longer periods, maybe to return to it only to procreate) Salmon, Piranha, Eel and most of the fish: 440 Sharks: 460 Starfish: ? est over 500 MY Insects: ? est 590 MY (I am not saying man evolved from mosquito, but both evolved from some common wormy shaped animal) Jellifish, Corals: ? Spunges: ? (these survive by passively letting the seawater flow through their "body", but they are animals nonetheless) Funghi: ? (this means man is more related to fungus than fungus is to plants) Amoebe: these multiply by spliting up rather than mate Plants Microbia Bacteria mix with cells using photosynthesis: maybe 2 billion years ago? Heavy debates here! Archea: early bacteria, Life!
I never finished that book, I stopped after the insects, but I have put it in reach and read on later. Evolution just happens by itself, result is determined by the evironment. Give it time and almost anything can happen. A small hippo-like beast evolved into whale while it's cousin got fat and kept on being a hippo. Some mice are more closely related to elephants than to other mice. That's because a mouse is such a basic mamal prototype that it can evolve into an elephant. An elephant doesn't evolve into a giraffe, though.
TIME IS KEY
Humans have 25 years for each generation, but earlier ancestor animals will had much shorter generations, so evolution (adaptation to the environment) goes faster.
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. It is one of the reasons that the evolutionist have to assign these tremendous time periods to the creation of the earth and life forms. Buying time 
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