Re: XDA-1 with windows pc « Reply #20 on Apr 14, 2012, 12:27pm »
Maybe someone can explain this whole USB issue to me, because I don't see it. A USB bus is digital, it's not a "lossy" protocol, it's just 1's and 0's. If a USB bus can transfer data successfully from a computer to a usb harddrive (and pass all md5 checksums on both the copy and the original file), then I fail to see how there can be any issue at all when sending a sound signal to a usb "soundcard".
Maybe someone can explain this whole USB issue to me, because I don't see it. A USB bus is digital, it's not a "lossy" protocol, it's just 1's and 0's. If a USB bus can transfer data successfully from a computer to a usb harddrive (and pass all md5 checksums on both the copy and the original file), then I fail to see how there can be any issue at all when sending a sound signal to a usb "soundcard".
dude... You think it's that easy ehh...
Do you TRULY understand how electricity works bro!?! (no insult intended)
Do you develop software or understand any computer languages? (I guess not)
I bet you really don't... like 90% of the populous... and this is fine... you're a consumer not a software or hardware engineer. I'm sorry if I sound crass it's just it bugs me how Luddites simplify very complicated software and electrical engineering when they don't even understand how electricity is coming outa their wall sockets! Sorry bro it just annoys me to no end...
Here is a technical article on USB as it pertains to ENGINEERING
"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the darkness at Tannhäuser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time like tears in rain. Time to die." -Roy Batty
Re: XDA-1 with windows pc « Reply #22 on Apr 14, 2012, 4:32pm »
Solidsate; yes indeed, I am a professional software developer (java, scala, python a few web technologies etc), but I am not into hardware. My knowledge of software protocols is why I am asking the question... if I open up a tcp/ip connection to a host in china, the packets can be sent through 50 different routers and switches before it reaches the destination; some are high quality cisco routers, others come from best buy, some packets reach the destination ahead of others, doesn't matter, the protocol will handle the crappy hardware and guarantee that my packets are processed in china in the same order that I sent them.
That is why I'm asking how this USB stuff is any different; yes, the hardware may be flaky at times, but does the device not run sanity checks etc to make sure it is getting the correct data? My point is, that if a USB disk drive controller can receive and store data over a usb connection such that it is a perfect digital copy of the source file (and an md5 hash algorithm can prove this), then why can a USB soundcard (specifically the XDA-1) not communicate digitally in the same way?
Re: XDA-1 with windows pc « Reply #24 on Apr 14, 2012, 4:48pm »
Sorry for my tone copperpipe.
the time domain my friend...
TIME DOMAIN
Checkout section 5.12.4.1 Synchronization Type and Table 5-12 in the USB spec sheet/white paper.
Surely you've played online FPS games and experience "lag" ? Sure the packets that were received at the server didn't suffer packet loss yet as ping going up and jitter then input IE the mouse controls for say quake etc becomes erratic. Not the best analogy I can use but you get the idea.
Here is a great article from Apple about their USB audio driver.
"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the darkness at Tannhäuser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time like tears in rain. Time to die." -Roy Batty
"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the darkness at Tannhäuser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time like tears in rain. Time to die." -Roy Batty
KStar Guest
Re: XDA-1 with windows pc « Reply #26 on Apr 14, 2012, 5:02pm »
Exactemente; Time Warp Factor (Cortex), or Jitter (fundamental pitch distortion).
"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the darkness at Tannhäuser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time like tears in rain. Time to die." -Roy Batty
Re: XDA-1 with windows pc « Reply #28 on Apr 14, 2012, 6:00pm »
Honestly, I still don't see it... saying that the issue with the XDA-1 is due to the use of USB is like saying you get better audio / video from a SATA dvd drive than from an IDE dvd drive. The SATA / IDE / USB / Firewire / PCI / Thunderbolt / XYZ bus is not the issue...
I have a $600 motu soundcard that runs over USB or Firewire (it supports both busses but only one at a time). It has 10 audio output channels and as far as I know all 10 can be producing sound at the same time. The sound quality is phenomenal (probably due to the fact that it meant for the recording guys). I run it 30+ feet away from my computer with a powered hub somewhere in the middle, absolutely no issues.
I don't own an XDA-1 so I will comment no more on the issue, but I have a very hard time believing that the XDA-1 sounds different depending on a particular USB port that one plugs it into. If you're talking audio dropouts or latency, yes I can see that; but changing the color / tone / clarity of the actual sound coming out so that one would say "this port / computer sounds better / worse", nope, I don't by it...
"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the darkness at Tannhäuser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time like tears in rain. Time to die." -Roy Batty
"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the darkness at Tannhäuser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time like tears in rain. Time to die." -Roy Batty
KStar Guest
Re: XDA-1 with windows pc « Reply #31 on Apr 14, 2012, 11:38pm »
Wow solidstate, you are the full package!
By the way, it seems that you and I already met before. You're from Salt Spring Island right? And you meet other hacks in Victoria sometimes right?
By the way, it seems that you and I already met before. You're from Salt Spring Island right? And you meet other hacks in Victoria sometimes right?
Name's K. Remember, I unlock your door once?
WOW you're that guy I met in the parking lot and I gave you a bunch of speaker wire and banana plugs outta my work van? Remember it's the red `94 shortbox Astro with the white stripe no windows? I think I was purchasing a couple Panasonic TVs for an install from London Drugs at the time...
"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the darkness at Tannhäuser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time like tears in rain. Time to die." -Roy Batty
KStar Guest
Re: XDA-1 with windows pc « Reply #33 on Apr 15, 2012, 11:21am »
1. You are always posting the best technical info (very helpful to others). 2. I don't post, I read other's post. 3. I read for long enough to get to know people, and meeting them in person sometimes.
Joined: Nov 2011 Gender: Male Posts: 359 Location: Belgium
Re: XDA-1 with windows pc « Reply #34 on Apr 15, 2012, 2:43pm »
I don't know if people have heard differences between different USB-to-S/PDIF adapters or between the coaxial and optical inputs with the XDA-1 but I'm guessing the answer would be a definite yes. With optical S/PDIF, you have to keep in mind the fact optocouplers can slowly degrade over time. However, it's also obvious the electric noise coming from a computer will not traverse an optical fiber cable, although the clock used in the transmitter can still be affected by it nonetheless. So IMO you can benefit from using a USB-to-S/PDIF adapter that's galvanically isolated properly (i.e. preferrably one that blocks the electric noise well enough for it to no longer have any audible effect at all). I know there are separate adapters that will galvanically isolate a computer's USB port from whatever's plugged into it but then you'd be using two adapters (one to galvanically isolate the signal and another to convert it from USB to S/PDIF) versus only one adapter. Moreover, to avoid the problem called "transport jitter" you could choose an adapter that uses asynchronous USB rather than synchronous or rather than adaptive. Anyway, though, since it's an adapter that outputs S/PDIF, there will still be transport jitter between the S/PDIF transmitter in the adapter and the S/PDIF receiver in the DAC unit. The good news is a good quality S/PDIF transmitter combined with a good quality S/PDIF cable can significantly help to reduce this type of jitter. Some people connect the adapter directly to the DAC unit without using a S/PDIF cable in between, to minimize jitter even further as well as to be able to utilize a cheap USB extension cord instead of a relatively more expensive S/PDIF cable. With an asynchronous USB interface that's galvanically isolated properly, as long as the USB cable is correctly functioning with other highspeed USB devices such as an external USB harddrive, the USB cable being cheap should have no noticeable impact on sound quality whatsoever.
Re: XDA-1 with windows pc « Reply #35 on Apr 15, 2012, 2:44pm »
So you are the guy in the parking lot at London Drugs when I was purchasing TVs? I remember you helped me unlock my doors to get the TVs into the Van.
I remember giving you free speaker cable and banana plugs...
You are that guy right?
Hey thanks for the possitive support. At times I get harsh in informal internet forums and I really need to work on that. If you know of any potential business on Vancouver Island or even the coast generally I'm in need of work...
LOL
Things have been REALLY SLOW the last six months. All I've been doing is VSAT terminals and sat tv. No theater installs for almost a year!
"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the darkness at Tannhäuser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time like tears in rain. Time to die." -Roy Batty
I don't know if people have heard differences between different USB-to-S/PDIF adapters or between the coaxial and optical inputs with the XDA-1 but I'm guessing the answer would be a definite yes. With optical S/PDIF, you have to keep in mind the fact optocouplers can slowly degrade over time. However, it's also obvious the electric noise coming from a computer will not traverse an optical fiber cable, although the clock used in the transmitter can still be affected by it nonetheless. So IMO you can benefit from using a USB-to-S/PDIF adapter that's galvanically isolated properly (i.e. preferrably one that blocks the electric noise well enough for it to no longer have any audible effect at all). I know there are separate adapters that will galvanically isolate a computer's USB port from whatever's plugged into it but then you'd be using two adapters (one to galvanically isolate the signal and another to convert it from USB to S/PDIF) versus only one adapter. Moreover, to avoid the problem called "transport jitter" you could choose an adapter that uses asynchronous USB rather than synchronous or rather than adaptive. Anyway, though, since it's an adapter that outputs S/PDIF, there will still be transport jitter between the S/PDIF transmitter in the adapter and the S/PDIF receiver in the DAC unit. The good news is a good quality S/PDIF transmitter combined with a good quality S/PDIF cable can significantly help to reduce this type of jitter. Some people connect the adapter directly to the DAC unit without using a S/PDIF cable in between, to minimize jitter even further as well as to be able to utilize a cheap USB extension cord instead of a relatively more expensive S/PDIF cable. With an asynchronous USB interface that's galvanically isolated properly, as long as the USB cable is correctly functioning with other highspeed USB devices such as an external USB harddrive, the USB cable being cheap should have no noticeable impact on sound quality whatsoever.
Great post!
To really make the XDA-1 shine I'd get one of Kingwa's new Tenor based USB adapters and a piece of Belden 1694A coax with a Taversoe RCA. Total cost is under $200 bucks to really bring the XDA-1 into it's own when using USB.
"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the darkness at Tannhäuser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time like tears in rain. Time to die." -Roy Batty
KStar Guest
Re: XDA-1 with windows pc « Reply #37 on Apr 16, 2012, 12:46am »
So you are the guy in the parking lot at London Drugs when I was purchasing TVs? I remember you helped me unlock my doors to get the TVs into the Van.
I remember giving you free speaker cable and banana plugs...
You are that guy right?
Ya ya ya big deal.
Quote:
Hey thanks for the possitive support. At times I get harsh and I really need to work on that. If you know of any potential business on Vancouver Island or even the coast generally I'm in need of work...
LOL
You're welcome; I like you, you're a nice guy in my book. Anything else you can do other than electronic stuff? 'Cause there ain't no future in this.
Quote:
Things have been REALLY SLOW the last six months. All I've been doing is VSAT terminals and sat tv. No theater installs for almost a year!
Like I said, learn a new trade. Perhaps office building window's cleaning? Driving a cab, a bus, driving goods across the States, Canada, and Alaska? You need a Class 1 driver's licence. Just set a new goal yourself and go get it! You can do and be anything you want; only your own imagination is the limit. Happiness is first, paying the bills is secondary.
Re: XDA-1 with windows pc « Reply #38 on Apr 16, 2012, 7:28am »
Thanks for links to those informative articles; I read 2 of them, but they do not prove what you are claiming (at least not that I can see). All they are saying is that different implementations will sound different, and I agree 100% that not every usb audio device is equal to another device; it depends on the quality of DAC etc etc.
However, my point is that the color / clarity of the sound coming out will not change depending on what port you plug it into in the computer. If a usb device sounds poor, it will always sound poor, regardless of what computer / port you plug it into. Audio drop outs, or latency is a different matter, yes I agree, that can definitely be caused by a port that is on the way out... if the usb device has trouble "talking" to the host then that is one symptom that can show up.
That is why I keep mentioning the example of a harddrive. When you plug in a usb harddrive into a bad usb port, you may find that your bandwidth on the device goes down... it takes longer to transfer the same data. BUT!! If you look at the data that was transferred, there is no bad data on the drive... the quality of the "payload" (where paylod = files in the case of a usb drive, or sound in the case of a usb soundcard) will not be affected by this. In the case of a bad usb port, the slow transfer in file copies would probably manifest itself as audio dropouts in a usb soundcard.
As I mentioned in a previous post, I've had experience with this myself... I have a digital sampler setup on my computer, and the motu is more than 30 feet away connected via usb. At first I was getting the latency / dropout errors, but that was resolved when plugging a powered hub somewhere in the middle of the cable so now it is only 15 feet before the signal is boosted back up again. Never once did I have "color / clarity" issues, the quality of the sound remained 100% the same the entire time, the only thing that happened was at times I would get no signal at all (dropouts), or I would get spikes in CPU usage (which showed up in the audio as latency).
On another forum specifically for this digital sampler (which will remain unmentioned), we deal with tracking down these types of problems all the time; bad motherboards with 200 millisecond latency (which is not acceptable in sampler usage, anything over 10 ms becomes very noticable); I've never ever seen it mentioned that simply swapping the usb port or purchasing a new usb card would have any effect on the sound quality (other than latency and dropouts)... of course that is not proof in itself, but it does make me think that the issue is simply not there...
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