Joined: Aug 2011 Gender: Male Posts: 2,322 Location: Directly above center of Earth
How eager should I be to buy the XMC-1? « Thread Started on Apr 7, 2012, 5:16am »
I'm considering replacing my existing Rotel AV preamp with the new XMC-1. Arguments in favor of the switch are:
The sooner I sell the Rotel, the more it'll be worth The XMC will have features that the Rotel doesn't including room correction & better DACs If I have the XMC-1, then I don't need my XDA-1 any more & can use that sale to offset the cost of the XMC-1
Arguments against the switch include:
The first edition of any electronic equipment is far more likely to have design flaws than the second edition The reliability of the first generation is typically less than subsequent generations. This is the most complex product that Emotiva has ever offered; a single error in manufacturing can ruin the function - Does Emotiva have the engineering and manufacturing capability to pull off a product of this complexity? Should Emotiva need to promptly change the model to a newer version that actually works, will I get stuck with a lemon? I know that Emotiva isn't prone to rapid model changes, but as I said in the previous point (also applicable here), this is the most complex product that Emotiva has ever offered.
How reliable was the UMC-1 compared to more established brands? This may or may not be a predictor of the success of the XMC-1.
Joined: Apr 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 144 Location: Australia
Re: How eager should I be to buy the XMC-1? « Reply #2 on Apr 7, 2012, 7:04am »
I think there will be alot of wait and see with the XMC-1. If it is relatively bug free though (as I'm predicting:) Emotiva will struggle to keep up supply with the demand. It looks that good. Whilst I have been very happy with my UMC-1 overall, I know that early bugs did sour the relationship a little for many, so predicting a few fence sitters early on.
Joined: Oct 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 2,771 Location: Indianapolis,IN (Broad Ripple)
Re: How eager should I be to buy the XMC-1? « Reply #3 on Apr 7, 2012, 7:08am »
From what I have read the Umc was not even close to being reliable compared to "any" brand. In fact some people are still having issues!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Polk RtiA9 mains swan diva R3 surrounds Av123 X-voce center Av123 MFW-15 sub eD A5-350 sub Pioneer elite vsx-33 Emotiva xpa-5 50" panny plasma 100" electric Elite screen Epson 8350 Pj Belkin Pf60 10 ATS acoustic panels Harmony one Yeah its a hodgepodge of speakers, Im in the works of getting all new stuff at all times
Joined: Jun 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 4,750 Location: Boca Raton, FL
Re: How eager should I be to buy the XMC-1? « Reply #4 on Apr 7, 2012, 7:10am »
Emotiva has made it very clear on a number of occasions that their products are not for everyone. You have cited a number of reasons why you are unsure if you should get an XMC-1. You, and you only, can answer your questions intelligently. We can only speculate. My best advice to you would be; that you do exactly as you did when you got the Rotel.
Re: How eager should I be to buy the XMC-1? « Reply #6 on Apr 7, 2012, 7:28am »
I would not let the value of my existing equipment be a factor...it's not likely to drop enough in the next few months to make a big difference. And, if you are concerned about initial bugs and that would be something you are not willing to work through, I'd hold.
I plan to hold myself, but it's more a matter of "I'm not in a hurry and I had an expensive spring!"
Joined: Jul 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 5,077 Location: 10-OC
Re: How eager should I be to buy the XMC-1? « Reply #8 on Apr 7, 2012, 8:51am »
2 years in and we're still in the "first edition" of the UMC-1. It's had several firmware changes but what is being sold today is basically the same hardware that was sold when I go mine 2 years ago. I'm not aware of Emotiva having a recall or anything like that on any of its products. While I know all too well that a reel of parts can be misloaded into the stitcher I have not heard of any issues with Emotiva products. In the event that there is a hardware problem Emotiva has a 5 year warranty against manufacturing defects. Chances are that if there is a hardware issue, it will manifest itself within that time and you'll be able to have it repaired or replaced at no cost to you. That's one of the best warranties in the business. As far as upgrading to a second version; there will be a second edition of the UMC coming later this year with a new video board to handle 3D. Owners of the first edition will be taken care of by sending their first edition in for an upgrade, however, at the owner's expense.
So, should you wait for a second generation of the XMC-1? That will likely come a long way (or never) down the road. There's always a risk with early adoption of any new product or technology. The question is how capable are you of handling headaches and do you have a plan B? I know that if I get the XMC-1 I won't be selling my UMC-1 any time soon simply because if there are issues (like the growing pains both the UMC and Emotiva went through 2 years ago) I've always got a working backup while the issues get worked out.
Joined: Jul 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 89 Location: Cleveland, Ohio
Re: How eager should I be to buy the XMC-1? « Reply #9 on Apr 7, 2012, 9:20am »
Wait until XMC-1 is released to those not on the waiting list. By then, reviews will be posted as to its sound quality compared to other top processors and HDMI reliability. More importantly, you can A/B test it with your Rotel - and ask yourself if it is worth the difference in SQ with your equipment in your listening environment.
The benefit of dealing with Emotiva is excellent customer service, a 30 day free trial, and most importantly, a lot of sound for the dollar.
Sad to say, but looking at the price of used Rotel processors in Audiogon, you already are going to take a loss. It's not going to be that much more if you wait. And if you decide to go in another direction, other used processors you may wish to try will likewise be that less expensive.
If the Emotiva XMC-1 is not available, for example, till late in the year for you, are you willing to be without quality Rotel sound until then? I sure wouldn't. My advice would be to play it by Hoyle and wait.
From what I have read the Umc was not even close to being reliable compared to "any" brand. In fact some people are still having issues!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I had issues that the last firmware fixed. From what I have read since that firmware release has been mostly user error, or not fully understanding their unit, issues with other products, etc.
Anything that wasn't related to that were hardware issues that were fixed if the units were sent back in.
The umc (or the xmc) are not newbie HT products. If this is your first taste in HT (not "you" the poster specifically the collective "you") and you do NOT want to tinker, look elsewhere. But if you are a tweaker at heart, once dialed in it will be VERY hard to get better sound elsewhere.
So the question becomes, are you willing to actually play with it? Because if you want plug and play, please get an AVR instead.
I'm considering replacing my existing Rotel AV preamp with the new XMC-1. Arguments in favor of the switch are:
The sooner I sell the Rotel, the more it'll be worth The XMC will have features that the Rotel doesn't including room correction & better DACs If I have the XMC-1, then I don't need my XDA-1 any more & can use that sale to offset the cost of the XMC-1
Arguments against the switch include:
The first edition of any electronic equipment is far more likely to have design flaws than the second edition The reliability of the first generation is typically less than subsequent generations. This is the most complex product that Emotiva has ever offered; a single error in manufacturing can ruin the function - Does Emotiva have the engineering and manufacturing capability to pull off a product of this complexity? Should Emotiva need to promptly change the model to a newer version that actually works, will I get stuck with a lemon? I know that Emotiva isn't prone to rapid model changes, but as I said in the previous point (also applicable here), this is the most complex product that Emotiva has ever offered.
How reliable was the UMC-1 compared to more established brands? This may or may not be a predictor of the success of the XMC-1.
Informed opinions appreciated.
What Rotel model do you have? I'm curious as I follow the threads on Club Rotel. I've demoed both the 1570 & 1572 and they both, sound quality wise, make the latest Onkyo/Integra models sound stale(this is no slight to these processors, just my personal opinion), though the Rotels seem to have there own significant problems not to mention no Room Equalization Software. Personally being on the initial XMC-1 sign up list, I will be purchasing straight away. I do agree with Bootman's assessment though, if you aren't a tweeker and need that "Plug n Play" bells & whistles feature laden receiver then one of the mass marketed receiver manufacturers would be the way to go.
Joined: May 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 5,375 Location: NORTH CAROLINA
Re: How eager should I be to buy the XMC-1? « Reply #13 on Apr 7, 2012, 5:09pm »
The architecture of the XMC-1 will make fixing problems far easier than it was with the UMC-1. FW upgrades will be very similar to that of updating the Oppo 93/95. On top of that, all the functions can be modified or new functions added via software in the TI Arm9 microprocessor. No more complicated, multi-stepped procedures will be need to perform FW upgrades.
The raw processing power of the DSP and the Microprocessor have so much excess capacity it will take years to outgrow the base system's ability to meet future design changes. It will take a long time to obsolete the XMC-1.
Joined: Aug 2011 Gender: Male Posts: 2,322 Location: Directly above center of Earth
Re: How eager should I be to buy the XMC-1? « Reply #14 on Apr 7, 2012, 6:43pm »
Hi - OP here again -
To answer subsequent questions, I bought my Rotel RSP-1066 used, so it is already completely depreciated. The upgrade, for me is more of a "quantum step" involving not one but all of the following components:
From the Rotel to a new preamp/processor From my existing 1024x768 business projector with S-video input only to a new HD projector with HDMI inputs From my existing DVD player to a new Blu-Ray networked player with HDMI outputs (probably an Oppo)
The projector model is yet to be determined. The Blu-Ray will probably be the $500 Oppo model.
I don't mind tinkering with the pre/pro for better performance, but I also don't want features that completely fail due to design flaws. My alternative to the XMC-1 would probably be a used Rotel 1570. The Rotel designs aren't the cutting edge (in either price or performance), but are good values for the money, particularly in the used market.
An AVR will not be suitable for me since none are muscular enough to drive my main speakers (Theil 3.6 models). Because I have the Theils and because my wife profoundly hates subsonics, I don't use a subwoofer. Because I have no option to run wiring, and because my room is not deep enough, I don't use rear channels. I basically have a 3.0 system with a Definitive Technology center channel. This is a superb system for music, and an adequate system for movies. It is not state-of-the-art for either, but I can live with that.
If I decide against the XMC-1, I'll probably go to the newer Rotel soon. If I decide in favor, I'll just use the existing 1066 until the new pre arrives. Cost really isn't that great an issue to me.
The raw processing power of the DSP and the Microprocessor have so much excess capacity it will take years to outgrow the base system's ability to meet future design changes. It will take a long time to obsolete the XMC-1.
RR,
I appreciate your enthusiasm towards the upgrade-ability of the XMC-1. But unless you have a crystal ball you do not know what is in the future as far as features, new audio codecs and much more. These new features whatever they are might take much more processing power than even the XMC-1 will have. So to say the XMC-1 will take years to out grow and a long time to be obsolete is quite a stretch IMO.
The other factor is in the future if new features are added to AVR/prepros will Emotiva feel the need to invest the time and money to upgrade the XMC-1? I'm not saying they would abandon the XMC-1. But if they continue to offer new prepro models why would they want to offer upgrades for an older platform. I remember AVRs from Onkyo that were modular platforms that were supposed to be "future proof". But Onkyo never followed up with upgrades for these products.
Denon 4311 (in preamp mode), Boston Acoustics A7200 amp (Sherwood A-965 clone), Oppo BDP-103, Consonance CD120, Panasonic TC-P60GT50 plasma, Panamax 5100EX, Salk Song Towers, Song Center and ADS 300C surrounds with a Rythmik F12SE.
Thanks for posting the link to the NAD upgradable MDC modules. I'm not up on NAD's most current AVR/prepros and was thinking of past products that I thought were not offered module upgrades. I could be mistaken on the older products as well and will edit my earlier post.
Denon 4311 (in preamp mode), Boston Acoustics A7200 amp (Sherwood A-965 clone), Oppo BDP-103, Consonance CD120, Panasonic TC-P60GT50 plasma, Panamax 5100EX, Salk Song Towers, Song Center and ADS 300C surrounds with a Rythmik F12SE.
To answer subsequent questions, I bought my Rotel RSP-1066 used, so it is already completely depreciated. The upgrade, for me is more of a "quantum step" involving not one but all of the following components:
From the Rotel to a new preamp/processor From my existing 1024x768 business projector with S-video input only to a new HD projector with HDMI inputs From my existing DVD player to a new Blu-Ray networked player with HDMI outputs (probably an Oppo)
The projector model is yet to be determined. The Blu-Ray will probably be the $500 Oppo model.
I don't mind tinkering with the pre/pro for better performance, but I also don't want features that completely fail due to design flaws. My alternative to the XMC-1 would probably be a used Rotel 1570. The Rotel designs aren't the cutting edge (in either price or performance), but are good values for the money, particularly in the used market.
An AVR will not be suitable for me since none are muscular enough to drive my main speakers (Theil 3.6 models). Because I have the Theils and because my wife profoundly hates subsonics, I don't use a subwoofer. Because I have no option to run wiring, and because my room is not deep enough, I don't use rear channels. I basically have a 3.0 system with a Definitive Technology center channel. This is a superb system for music, and an adequate system for movies. It is not state-of-the-art for either, but I can live with that.
If I decide against the XMC-1, I'll probably go to the newer Rotel soon. If I decide in favor, I'll just use the existing 1066 until the new pre arrives. Cost really isn't that great an issue to me.
Simple 3.0 system. I like it!
Are you sure you want room correction with a simple (and very nice) system like that?
How is your 2ch sound now? ..and can your current Rotel can handle a multi channel pcm signal now?
If so, you don't need a new prepro to listen to HDaudio tracks off blurays and the highend Oppo has killer DACs so you have that option. Just a thought....
The raw processing power of the DSP and the Microprocessor have so much excess capacity it will take years to outgrow the base system's ability to meet future design changes. It will take a long time to obsolete the XMC-1.
RR,
I appreciate your enthusiasm towards the upgrade-ability of the XMC-1. But unless you have a crystal ball you do not know what is in the future as far as features, new audio codecs and much more. These new features whatever they are might take much more processing power than even the XMC-1 will have. So to say the XMC-1 will take years to out grow and a long time to be obsolete is quite a stretch IMO.
The other factor is in the future if new features are added to AVR/prepros will Emotiva feel the need to invest the time and money to upgrade the XMC-1?
Bill
Bill,
No, I don't have a crystal ball, but I do have 47 years experience in this hobby to draw from in making educated guesses. I also was Manager of Internal Consulting for one of the world's largest Bank Holding Companies, in which a good deal of my job involved keeping the bank technologically ahead of the competition. This required living on the "bleeding edge" of rapidly changing data processing technology.
I am not just making wild guesses as to what Emotiva's intent is with the development of the XMC-1, as you seem to infer in your post. Emotiva states on their product page for the XMC-1:
"Based on a powerful and flexible DSP architecture controlled by an advanced ARM processor running custom Linux software, the XMC-1 provides a flexible and expandable platform that will make it current and technologically relevant for years to come. We are also committed to continuously developing and expanding the capabilities and features of the XMC-1 over time with our ongoing Enhancement Program. The Emotiva XMC-1 – The promise, fulfilled."
Video Capabilities
"HDMI v1.4-Bit Perfect Switching with Video Processing Bypass – 4K compatible. Color OSD overlays and setup menus with no interruption or degradation of the native video, variable transparency. Dual Analog Device ADV7623 video switches for true "Bit-Perfect" HDMI switching."
As you can see, Emotiva clearly states their posture in going forward with the XMC-1. In conversations I had with Emotiva's engineers during Emofest 2011, the video capabilities of the hardware in the XMC-1 will be 4K compatible when shipped and can be updated to handle 8K via software. How many years do you think it will take for 8K video to be released and then how many more years before it would be obsolete? I would not consider my saying it would take years to obsolete the XMC-1 " is quite a stretch IMO." as you stated in your post. Personally, I would say that my statement was a logical conclusion.
The industry is currently viewing 1080P video to be state of the art. It is likely to take several more years before 4K video becomes a standard and it is highly debatable if the industry will ever move on to an 8K standard. Emotiva has got the "meat and potatoes" anticipated and covered for the foreseeable future. They have never been a proponent of the "bells and whistles" features in their products and it is not likely they ever will be. Tact appears to have the room correction/equalization nut covered. I am very comfortable with the direction Emotiva has taken with the XMC-1.
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