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Post by timetogo on Dec 17, 2012 16:03:16 GMT -5
Does the UMC-200 have the noise gate also?
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Post by richardrc on Dec 19, 2012 9:16:38 GMT -5
Yes, the UMC-1 does mute when the signal drops below a (very) low level. Interestingly, even though the mute operates for both digital and analog signals, the mute circuitry itself is purely analog, but it is controlled by the processor in both cases. The processor "listens" to the signal, even when you are in direct mode and the signal you hear doesn't go through the processor on its way to you, and mutes the output when it determines that the signal has ceased - to cut off any "dead track" noise. Instances where there is legitimate music this close to the noise floor are few and far between. (The UMC-1 is, primarily, a surround sound processor, and in movies instances where you would want to clean up a slightly high noise floor exceed those where there is very low-level music playing.) Since you asked: 1) This function is rather buried in the UMC-1 firmware, so it is quite unlikely that it will be eliminated (or made adjustable) for the UMC-1. 2) The XMC-1 does NOT do it. Thanks for the explanation KeithL, the processor doing the analog switching could go someway to explaining the switching delay even by 1-2ms
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Post by justdhruv on Dec 19, 2012 14:03:31 GMT -5
That explains one symptom that I have been having.
I had a humm issue with my setup. The speakers were generating some humm which would increase substantially when when an audio source plugged into the UMC starts to send audio to the UMC. Only in my case the hum decreases after two seconds after I stop the audio source from playing.
Also the hum remained at the same level irrespective of the volume level.
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Post by rob80b on Jan 5, 2013 11:22:07 GMT -5
Yes, the UMC-1 does mute when the signal drops below a (very) low level. Interestingly, even though the mute operates for both digital and analog signals, the mute circuitry itself is purely analog, but it is controlled by the processor in both cases. The processor "listens" to the signal, even when you are in direct mode and the signal you hear doesn't go through the processor on its way to you, and mutes the output when it determines that the signal has ceased - to cut off any "dead track" noise. Instances where there is legitimate music this close to the noise floor are few and far between. (The UMC-1 is, primarily, a surround sound processor, and in movies instances where you would want to clean up a slightly high noise floor exceed those where there is very low-level music playing.) Since you asked: 1) This function is rather buried in the UMC-1 firmware, so it is quite unlikely that it will be eliminated (or made adjustable) for the UMC-1. 2) The XMC-1 does NOT do it. Yes, this issue is real and present in every firmware update I have tried. Always a little late during track changes (analog in, direct) or quiet passages. It is extremely annoying. I would like to see this "feature" made user adjustable either on/off or by time delay up to several seconds. Please don't implement it on the xmc-1! Hi Keith Thanks for the reply on this, curious if the UMC-200 suffers from the same fate as I prefer to listening at reference levels (all or nothing guy) so 75% of the time I’m forced to use my head-phone/zone 2 set-up for watching movies/music and the muting function is to me very obvious even during films. Another solution I guess would be to pick the XDA-2 and run an optical out from the ATV2 (Netflix and Music streaming) and BDP as obviously only stereo is required for personnel listening. Find it odd though that all inputs and outputs are affected by this muting feature. Robert
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Post by wizardofoz on Jan 6, 2013 10:27:44 GMT -5
Seems like emo is not the only one with auto muting
from the oppo 105 specs
Analog Audio Characteristics** Frequency Response: (RCA) 20Hz – 20kHz: ± 0.2dB, 20Hz – 96kHz: -1.5dB. (XLR) 20Hz – 20kHz: ± 0.3dB, 20Hz 96kHz: -1.5dB Signal-to-Noise Ratio: >130dB (A-weighted, auto-mute), >115dB (A-weighted, no auto-mute) THD+N: <0.0003% or -110dB (1kHz at 48k/24b, 0dBFS, 20kHz LPF), <0.0017% or -96dB (1kHz at 44.1k/16b, 0dBFS, 20kHz LPF) Output Level: 2.1 Vrms (RCA) or 4.2 Vrms (XLR) at 0dBFS Dynamic Range: >110dB Channel Separation: >110dB
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Post by srrndhound on Jan 6, 2013 13:25:49 GMT -5
Seems like emo is not the only one with auto muting from the oppo 105 specs The issue is not whether a product has auto-mute or not. It is whether the auto-mute improperly operates during valid program content.
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Post by rob80b on Jan 13, 2013 8:57:03 GMT -5
Seems like emo is not the only one with auto muting from the oppo 105 specs The issue is not whether a product has auto-mute or not. It is whether the auto-mute improperly operates during valid program content. Pianissimo (very soft ) passages during on a number of CDs has become nerve racking as they are totally unlistenable, especially piano pieces were complete sections of the music are muted, non existent. As Keith has mentioned “(The UMC-1 is, primarily, a surround sound processor, and in movies instances where you would want to clean up a slightly high noise floor exceed those where there is very low-level music playing.) “ which in my books is definitely a no no or unacceptable. And as I noted earlier this is also noticeable during movies, wish I was aware of this prior to getting the UMC-1. Robert
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Post by rob80b on Jan 13, 2013 12:11:27 GMT -5
What’s curious is that the muting has not been widely noted on the forums so I’m wondering if some of the units have a much lower threshold, also it may be just my imagination but the muting appears to be more prevalent recently. Originally I was just going for an XDA-1 for music streaming and movies off the Apple TV2 and thought I’d kill two birds with one stone by going with the UMC-1 to add 5.1 capability, so the only solution would be to add the XDA as I mentioned and run it to my Bryston BP25 or another AV processor without the mute function. The other thing Keith mentioned was that the muting takes place in the analogue realm so maybe the circuit can be bypassed, having not looked at the actual circuit board there might be an actual potentiometer to adjust the gate threshold. FYI I also came across similar occurrences with TVs and Smart phones. code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=35861www.avsforum.com/t/1404471/vizio-analog-and-optical-audio-out-goes-out-when-scene-is-quiet
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Post by rob80b on Jan 15, 2013 11:53:57 GMT -5
Hi Guys
Just a follow up. Swapped the cables from the Zone 2 output to the REC out and it appears not to be affected by the aggressive noise gate so hopefully that will solve the problem, although I do miss the gain added with zone 2 out for running my inefficient AKG 701s. Thought I could use the “mix out” but it is not a fixed output as indicated in the manual but controlled by the volume of the UMC-1 so that the speakers and the headphones are both on at the same time.
Robert
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KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 9,976
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Post by KeithL on Jan 15, 2013 18:04:38 GMT -5
Muting occurs in the analog domain, but it is controlled by the processor (the processor sends an on/off signal to the analog circuitry). There is no way to adjust the level, and it should always happen at the same level (although that may very depending on other settings such as trims and EQ). The reason the muting hasn't been "widely noted" is that it works as intended - and only cuts in at levels way below where the music has usually transitioned to noise. But, to answer the question as asked - it is NOT configurable or user-adjustable. What’s curious is that the muting has not been widely noted on the forums so I’m wondering if some of the units have a much lower threshold, also it may be just my imagination but the muting appears to be more prevalent recently. Originally I was just going for an XDA-1 for music streaming and movies off the Apple TV2 and thought I’d kill two birds with one stone by going with the UMC-1 to add 5.1 capability, so the only solution would be to add the XDA as I mentioned and run it to my Bryston BP25 or another AV processor without the mute function. The other thing Keith mentioned was that the muting takes place in the analogue realm so maybe the circuit can be bypassed, having not looked at the actual circuit board there might be an actual potentiometer to adjust the gate threshold. FYI I also came across similar occurrences with TVs and Smart phones. code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=35861www.avsforum.com/t/1404471/vizio-analog-and-optical-audio-out-goes-out-when-scene-is-quiet
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Post by rob80b on Jan 16, 2013 20:21:21 GMT -5
One more follow up , sorry guys...... but good news for the UMC-1.
Thought I’d transfer some of the offending classical CDs which are affected by aggressive muting to my iMac for streaming, well the results were very good sound wise with zero dropouts. Hadn’t really tested this aspect as I’ve only in the past digitized my pop music which does not have the dynamic range from very quite to loud as far as music goes. So I’d have to say there is an incompatibility with the Bryston BCD-1 and the UMC-1s analogue input, one possible reason is that the Bryston has a higher than usual output which somehow increased the sensitivity of the noise gate to trigger at a higher than normal level therefore truncating the quieter passages. (And just to clarify for those who may of thought the CD player was at fault, using the Bryton BCD-1 with the Bryston BP25P pre-amp there were zero problems.) Anyway I have a USP-1 on the way so that should eliminate the problem when listening to CDs and I’m really curious to see how it stands up with the Bryston BP25P especially with vinyl.
For reference: two CDs that were aggressively affected were “Karlheinz Stockhausen bass clarinet & piano” on MDG 2007 and “Ligeti “ 20th Century Classics on Deutcshe Grammophone 1983, there were more but these two stand out.
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Post by garbulky on Jan 16, 2013 20:42:21 GMT -5
One more follow up , sorry guys...... but good news for the UMC-1. Thought I’d transfer some of the offending classical CDs which are affected by aggressive muting to my iMac for streaming, well the results were very good sound wise with zero dropouts. Hadn’t really tested this aspect as I’ve only in the past digitized my pop music which does not have the dynamic range from very quite to loud as far as music goes. So I’d have to say there is an incompatibility with the Bryston BCD-1 and the UMC-1s analogue input, one possible reason is that the Bryston has a higher than usual output which somehow increased the sensitivity of the noise gate to trigger at a higher than normal level therefore truncating the quieter passages. (And just to clarify for those who may of thought the CD player was at fault, using the Bryton BCD-1 with the Bryston BP25P pre-amp there were zero problems.) Anyway I have a USP-1 on the way so that should eliminate the problem when listening to CDs and I’m really curious to see how it stands up with the Bryston BP25P especially with vinyl. For reference: two CDs that were aggressively affected were “Karlheinz Stockhausen bass clarinet & piano” on MDG 2007 and “Ligeti “ 20th Century Classics on Deutcshe Grammophone 1983, there were more but these two stand out. You are also comparing an analog output to the UMC-1 from your CD to a digital output to the UMC-1. Since these are two different kind of signals they may be being processed differently with the noise gate affecting analog and not digital?
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Post by rob80b on Jan 16, 2013 22:12:47 GMT -5
You are also comparing an analog output to the UMC-1 from your CD to a digital output to the UMC-1. Since these are two different kind of signals they may be being processed differently with the noise gate affecting analog and not digital? True but as Keith mentioned Yes, the UMC-1 does mute when the signal drops below a (very) low level. Interestingly, even though the mute operates for both digital and analog signals, the mute circuitry itself is purely analog, but it is controlled by the processor in both cases. The processor "listens" to the signal, even when you are in direct mode and the signal you hear doesn't go through the processor on its way to you, and mutes the output when it determines that the signal has ceased - to cut off any "dead track" noise. Instances where there is legitimate music this close to the noise floor are few and far between. (The UMC-1 is, primarily, a surround sound processor, and in movies instances where you would want to clean up a slightly high noise floor exceed those where there is very low-level music playing.) Since you asked: 1) This function is rather buried in the UMC-1 firmware, so it is quite unlikely that it will be eliminated (or made adjustable) for the UMC-1. 2) The XMC-1 does NOT do it. And as I mentioned previously I noticed it occasionally while streaming movies from Netflix.
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Post by Farhoof on Jun 25, 2013 15:12:35 GMT -5
Good to see this topic is still alive (sort of) and others have noticed the problems. I'm not the only crazy one out there ;-) I still doubt the noise gate is working as intended (wrong batch then maybe?). I know the numbers and it should be active at around -140dB below standard consumer ref. level (which is fine). When measuring it was closer to -60dB. Speaking of movies, I was actually (pre)mixing a movie, but had to stop after the first minute (mixing at Dolby level 5, about where dvd/bluray should be).
I've sold my unit, I can't check or reproduce anything. The XMC-1 would be the perfect upgrade for me, but somehow it feels like trading in one issue for some other. I just don't trust it, and without any retailers testing means buying.
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Post by monkumonku on Jun 25, 2013 22:31:22 GMT -5
Yes, the UMC-1 does mute when the signal drops below a (very) low level. Interestingly, even though the mute operates for both digital and analog signals, the mute circuitry itself is purely analog, but it is controlled by the processor in both cases. The processor "listens" to the signal, even when you are in direct mode and the signal you hear doesn't go through the processor on its way to you, and mutes the output when it determines that the signal has ceased - to cut off any "dead track" noise. Instances where there is legitimate music this close to the noise floor are few and far between. (The UMC-1 is, primarily, a surround sound processor, and in movies instances where you would want to clean up a slightly high noise floor exceed those where there is very low-level music playing.) Since you asked: 1) This function is rather buried in the UMC-1 firmware, so it is quite unlikely that it will be eliminated (or made adjustable) for the UMC-1. 2) The XMC-1 does NOT do it. "Yes, the UMC-1 does mute when the signal drops below a (very) low level." This is on the ADC inputs? Why the hell would you guys implement that? Doesn't make any engineering sense what so ever. First figure out how to send SPI/I2S from your TDMS to your DSP then DACs without sync machine gunning first for god's sake.
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Post by solidstate on Jun 26, 2013 16:05:25 GMT -5
I wasn't paying attention to the fact it was a multi chan analog source as it makes so sense to feed the processor an analog signal if it has to go through an ADC for DSP processing.
I'm way to assumptive it seems because I just figure people know better than to feed the unit a multi chan analog signal.
Even if the source has a decent converter et al the ADC and subsequent DSP processing and DAC would null anything upstream in terms of DAC in the transport unless the processor's 5.1 analog ins had no conversion and a nice analog signal path.
Sorry for my assumptive ignorance guys.
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Post by rob80b on Jun 26, 2013 16:17:27 GMT -5
I wasn't paying attention to the fact it was a multi chan analog source as it makes so sense to feed the processor an analog signal if it has to go through an ADC for DSP processing........ ............. In my case it was for convenience and non critical listening of CDs, for critical stereo listening I was at the time running my Bryston BP25P preamp with a separate cable routing for amp and sub, I subsequently picked up a USP-1, problem (inconvenience)solved.
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Post by Farhoof on Jul 25, 2013 17:23:40 GMT -5
You are forgiven ;-) In my case it's a cabling issue. My audio interface doesn't output HDMI, and is 100ft. further down the hall. But I have some spare HD-SDI coax cables, going to try 8x AES digital to HD-SDI converter (even embed video with SDI), and convert SDI to HDMI on the other end and input into a Marantz. It would have worked on the Emotiva, but the SDI converter wasn't available back then.
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