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Post by Porscheguy on Jan 19, 2011 18:30:56 GMT -5
I'm learned that the lossless codec in iTunes called "Apple Lossless" isn't really lossless at all.
If I import a 600MB CD into iTunes it shows up as a 300MB file. Better than AAC, but not truly lossless. Grrrrrr.
Do I have this right? Is FLAC better?
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Post by jannick on Jan 19, 2011 18:43:09 GMT -5
The data is compressed, but in a mathematically lossless way. It's similar to when you use zip/rar files, all parts of the original content can be reconstructed from the compressed structure. The space saving is the reason that lossless codecs as FLAC or apple's variant are even used, otherwise you could just as well use wave files.
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Post by Porscheguy on Jan 19, 2011 18:47:02 GMT -5
The data is compressed, but in a mathematically lossless way. It's similar to when you use zip/rar files, all parts of the original content can be reconstructed from the compressed structure. The space saving is the reason that lossless codecs as FLAC or apple's variant are even used, otherwise you could just as well use wave files. Well, on some cd's I can hear "breathing". And to be fair, while not bad quality, the some CD's sound better than the iTunes lossless version. What say you?? |
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Post by Mischief on Jan 19, 2011 18:55:00 GMT -5
I won't use the Apple lossless, IMHO FLAC is better if your system is revealing enough.
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browe1967
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Post by browe1967 on Jan 19, 2011 19:07:43 GMT -5
I am new to an iPod. I just got a brand new gen 4 20g.
What the hell are you talking about? FLAC, Apple lossless.
Help a newbie!
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Post by jannick on Jan 19, 2011 19:12:24 GMT -5
The data is compressed, but in a mathematically lossless way. It's similar to when you use zip/rar files, all parts of the original content can be reconstructed from the compressed structure. The space saving is the reason that lossless codecs as FLAC or apple's variant are even used, otherwise you could just as well use wave files. Well, on some cd's I can hear "breathing". And to be fair, while not bad quality, the some CD's sound better than the iTunes lossless version.? Are you comparing iTunes based CD playback to iTunes apple-lossless playback? I won't use the Apple lossless, IMHO FLAC is better if your system is revealing enough. In what way is FLAC better? (except for the open/closed nature of the formats) |
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Post by Porscheguy on Jan 19, 2011 20:04:00 GMT -5
Well, on some cd's I can hear "breathing". And to be fair, while not bad quality, the some CD's sound better than the iTunes lossless version.? Are you comparing iTunes based CD playback to iTunes apple-lossless playback? I won't use the Apple lossless, IMHO FLAC is better if your system is revealing enough. In what way is FLAC better? (except for the open/closed nature of the formats) I've only found 2 iTunes songs that sort of "gate" very soft passages and it only happens once on each imported CD. If I play the CD itself, its fine. The only time it happens is: (This is all Sonos BTW), iTunes>Zone Bridge>Zone Player 90>input UMC-1>Zone 2>XPA-2. If I play the CD through the ERC-1>UMC-1>XPA-2 no problem. Whats weird is : iTunes>Zone Bridge>Sonos S5 wireless powered speaker, its fine.... Please splain this one :-) |
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Erwin.BE
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Post by Erwin.BE on Jan 19, 2011 20:08:03 GMT -5
The data is compressed, but in a mathematically lossless way. It's similar to when you use zip/rar files, all parts of the original content can be reconstructed from the compressed structure. The space saving is the reason that lossless codecs as FLAC or apple's variant are even used, otherwise you could just as well use wave files. Well, on some cd's I can hear "breathing". And to be fair, while not bad quality, the some CD's sound better than the iTunes lossless version. What say you?? Tell us how exactly you did the setup. EDIT: you told already...>> Are you wirelessly streaming with Sonos from a Mac? The Mac will reduce all "higher" formats to Apple Lossless if you do this, to ensure stability. Sonos is good, but not high-end. Don't mix-up Lossless and compressed: 1/ The standard for all is WAV. What goes in comes out. A 600MB CD results in a 600MB file on the computer (Mac or PC). If you display the bitrate in iTunes: it's 1411 kbps from a ripped CD, more from DVD's or high resolution downloads. Problem is you cannot "embed" metadata to it, so it's practically useless. 2/ AIFF is a Apple format, also uncompressed 1411 kbps from CD. But the beauty is you can embed metadata such as cover art to it. Just go to iTunes preferences, CD import settings, set to AIFF. Done! If you download other formats such as WAV: open them with XLD, which is a free download (though I donated €10). Go to Computer Audiophile to find out about the settings. I even use this to rip my CD's straight to AIFF! You can always turn ALAC into AIFF with 100% bitperfect result! Try the difference with them both, but you will not hear this via Sonos, IMO. 3/ALAC (Apple Lossless) is indeed compressed, but lossless nonetheless. It's just math and computers are rather good with that sh**... When a digital track/file has 8 "ones" in a row, it does not write: 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1 but: 8*1, which saves space! Bitrate varies between 330 and 1,150 kbps in my experience. 4/ FLAC: see ALAC, but "free", not Apple. Difference is you can set the compression level yourself. 5/ AAC & MP3: lossy and compressed, as you know, avoid if possible. Internet radio and DAB use something between 48 and 160 kbps. Sounds "digital"! Though 256 kbps from iTunes is acceptable if there's no other option. |
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Erwin.BE
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Post by Erwin.BE on Jan 19, 2011 20:22:01 GMT -5
Here's the free XLD download: tmkk.pv.land.to/xld/index_e.htmlAll knowledge for the settings: www.computeraudiophile.com/Real geek wannabe's go straight to: www.computeraudiophile.com/content/Computer-Audiophile-CD-Ripping-Strategy-and-MethodologyBTW: Some say (even professionals!) they don't like ALAC or AIFF because it ties them to Apple. Not! Just use XLD to convert to FLAC or WAV or MP3... If you can't decide about some of the settings, just PM me and I will give you mine. The beauty of XLD is that it tells whether the rip was perfect or not. A rip takes as long as iTunes, between 5 and 15 minutes for a CD. I always search Discogs for a better album cover afterwards and to check all the metadata. Call me anal. Just ripped 23 Traditional Japanese albums. I love them drums. |
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Post by Mischief on Jan 19, 2011 21:00:00 GMT -5
Well, on some cd's I can hear "breathing". And to be fair, while not bad quality, the some CD's sound better than the iTunes lossless version.? Are you comparing iTunes based CD playback to iTunes apple-lossless playback? I won't use the Apple lossless, IMHO FLAC is better if your system is revealing enough. In what way is FLAC better? (except for the open/closed nature of the formats) To me, on my main system (no difference on other systems I have tested) the FLAC file is more open and detailed. I also notice a tendency for Apple lossless files to be error prone, small skips and missing split seconds which are audible even on my iPods. This is ripping on the same computer at the highest possible rates. EAC vs iTunes. |
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Erwin.BE
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Post by Erwin.BE on Jan 19, 2011 21:57:39 GMT -5
I am new to an iPod. I just got a brand new gen 4 20g. What the hell are you talking about? FLAC, Apple lossless. Help a newbie! First: We got several iPods but I don't know that much about them as some others. I use an iTouch for remote, a iPod classic for my wife's little music system and my doughter uses a nano to play on a Logitech compact speaker and on the bus. iPod is Apple. So look at the Apple formats. FLAC is not supported. MP3 is the exception, this will play. You read the post on the various formats? These will play: WAV, AIFF, ALAC, AAC, MP3. Capacity is limited, 20 GB are about 50 CD's in Lossless format, but much more in the lossy AAC (128 to 320 kbps) If you use the digital output, the best option would be ALAC (Apple Lossless) to preserve all the SQ (some say only WAV will do, but there's not proof for that), while not waisting space. I don't even know if you can output digital straight to XDA-1? Anyways: you gotta see the iPods as devices to take your music away from your Mac and house: car, work, travel, etc. Why would you use them at home if you can stream with an Apple Express or the Apple TV or Sonos? Or better, put your Mac on top of your HiFi and go wired: optical or USB. Even if you save all your music in Itunes using ALAC or AIFF, you can synch your iPod in 128 kbps AAC. You won't hear it different with cheap earphones. |
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Post by Mr. Ben on Jan 20, 2011 9:52:23 GMT -5
It should be easy enough to test this. Rip a track from a CD as a .wav file. Then convert it to apple lossless, and convert it back again to wav. If the first wav has the same bytes as the second wav (ignoring any tags that itunes may have added), then apple lossless is really lossless.
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Post by Porscheguy on Jan 20, 2011 10:28:21 GMT -5
It should be easy enough to test this. Rip a track from a CD as a .wav file. Then convert it to apple lossless, and convert it back again to wav. If the first wav has the same bytes as the second wav (ignoring any tags that itunes may have added), then apple lossless is really lossless. Let me see, 5674 songs. That should take me........ forever  |
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Post by bigred7078 on Jan 20, 2011 10:42:33 GMT -5
ALAC is just fine to me and suits my needs perfectly. I've never been able to hear a difference between it and .FLAC
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Post by Mischief on Jan 20, 2011 10:57:59 GMT -5
ALAC is just fine to me and suits my needs perfectly. I've never been able to hear a difference between it and .FLAC I think this will likely be the case for most people. I think using iTunes to do the ripping is likely the culprit for me. Using something like EAC ensures the best possible rip as it shows you the accuracy. |
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Post by Mr. Ben on Jan 20, 2011 15:20:39 GMT -5
It should be easy enough to test this. Rip a track from a CD as a .wav file. Then convert it to apple lossless, and convert it back again to wav. If the first wav has the same bytes as the second wav (ignoring any tags that itunes may have added), then apple lossless is really lossless. Let me see, 5674 songs. That should take me........ forever You only have to do it once, for one song.  |
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browe1967
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Post by browe1967 on Jan 22, 2011 22:57:50 GMT -5
Ok. so I ripped all my music to apple loss-less in iTunes. How do I convert it to AAC or whatever to shrink it down?
If I shrink it down, will the quality degrade?
The reason I ask is I use it in a dock on my receiver for home listening use.
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Erwin.BE
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Post by Erwin.BE on Jan 23, 2011 9:20:13 GMT -5
Ok. so I ripped all my music to apple loss-less in iTunes. How do I convert it to AAC or whatever to shrink it down? If I shrink it down, will the quality degrade? The reason I ask is I use it in a dock on my receiver for home listening use. Do not convert to AAC. But when you hook up the iPod with iTunes to load up tracks, you will have the option to use 128 kbps AAC version. Which is fine for those little speaker docks or the earphones kids use. Your iTunes Lossless library will not be affected in any way if you do this. |
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browe1967
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Post by browe1967 on Jan 24, 2011 8:44:54 GMT -5
Thanks. how bad will the sound quality degrade?
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Erwin.BE
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Post by Erwin.BE on Jan 24, 2011 10:46:04 GMT -5
Thanks. how bad will the sound quality degrade? On a set with good speakers, AAC 128 kbps will sound something like DAB or Satellite radio, ie "digital"! It will be better to hear if you cranck the volume. The dynamic range is superior to FM radio, but there's a holow, metallic sound that FM radio does not show. If it is the purpose of the iPod to be used as a transport to feed a medium level set, I do recommend to make a AAC 320 kbps second iTunes version. You have to go to the import settings and set it to AAC 320 kbps. This allows you to "make a version for AAC" while keeping the ALAC album if you select the tracks.. Don't forget to set it back to ALAC afterwards. Even for an excellent system, the iPod can be a good transport, but you need to keep it in ALAC, thus limiting the amount of tracks. Although a iPod classic is good for many tracks. It's of little use for me in the house, since we stream wireless ALAC anyway. My Ipod classic 80 MB sits on top of my wife's cheap stereo. It's filled with ALAC, but less than 10% of my collection. |
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