Ah, excuse me? Exactly how were you hooking up the HDMI cables?
Sorry, but I don't understand the question.
Sorry Rather, but it was a lousy attempt at a bad joke. You got a "pain in the rear" and I wondered where you had hooked up the other end of the HDMI cable?
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Joined: Jun 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 51 Location: Kansas
Re: Emotiva HDMI cable's « Reply #41 on Nov 7, 2009, 8:31pm »
Thanks guys for those links. There was some good info there and I feel like I learned a lot. Here is my take-away:
1. Although there are a host of physical characteristics (materials and manufacturing tolerances) of a cable that affect it, especially length, there is only one effect the cable can have on the signal. I thought it was a bit goofy that bluejeans cable in one place called it bandwidth limitation, but I guess that's technically true. Most of the time they call it bit-rounding, which makes more sense. As the binary signal switches from a 0 to a 1, the voltage on the wire jumps from it's minimum to maximum value. But a real circuit has inductance and a limited power supply, so it is not really an instant shift but a very steep ramp up. Also from a 0 to a 1, there is a similar ramp down. Now imagine switching from a 0 to a 1 and then back to a 0. If the ramp up doesn't have time to reach it's top before the ramp down begins, the signal never gets to the top and the 1 is never sent. Things that cause this are trying to pack the 1's and 0's too close together (there's your bandwidth limitation), or the ramps getting shallower. What makes the ramps shallow is increased inductance, which will go up with cable length and, to a lesser degree, those manufacturing tolerances and material choices. (On a side note, this is also what puts limits on the speed of your computer's processor and why overclocking works. If you increase the voltage pushing the signal, the ramp-up's get steeper. Therefor you can pack them in tighter.)
2. If the signal voltage reaches it's top, the data gets through. If it doesn't, than bits are lost. If you are at the very edge of what a cable can do in terms of bandwidth or inductance, than you can have some of the bits lost but not all, and still render a picture, although it will be filled with sparklies and obvious errors from the missing information. Short of that extreme case, there will be no change in the quality of the information being sent. This is the big difference with analog signals. With digital you either get no picture, a picture that is obviously broken, or a perfect picture. There is pretty-good-but-could-be-better possibility. That's why the Audioholics comparison listed everything as pass-fail. Either every 1 and 0 that when into the cable came out, or at least some didn't. This is the critical thing that I was looking for because it tells me there is no point in chasing upgradeitis when it comes to HDMI cables looking to find better PQ. In the physical universe in which we live, it's not possible.
3. And lastly, back to the Audioholics comparison, at short lengths like 6ft, which is my longest one, every single cable passed. They didn't test no-name cables from Wal-Mart, but if they did, I would expect them to pass as well. Anything will work at 6ft. At 25ft, the only things that passed 3.4 Gbit/sec were Monoprice ($40) and Monster ($400). That is very interesting! Any longer, and nothing passed. But as the article explains, all current HD signals only use 1.8 Gbit/sec. That allows twice as much time for ramps, so everything passed at that length, and most things passed even longer.
Thanks everyone for the input, this has been very educational for me. This brought back memories of college for me where we covered a lot of this stuff but I'd forgotten it since. If I knew back then that sitting in class watching the professor put equations on the blackboard would apply to my home theater interest years later, I may not have slept through class as much.
Thanks guys for those links. There was some good info there and I feel like I learned a lot. Here is my take-away:
1. Although there are a host of physical characteristics (materials and manufacturing tolerances) of a cable that affect it, especially length, there is only one effect the cable can have on the signal. I thought it was a bit goofy that bluejeans cable in one place called it bandwidth limitation, but I guess that's technically true. Most of the time they call it bit-rounding, which makes more sense. As the binary signal switches from a 0 to a 1, the voltage on the wire jumps from it's minimum to maximum value. But a real circuit has inductance and a limited power supply, so it is not really an instant shift but a very steep ramp up. Also from a 0 to a 1, there is a similar ramp down. Now imagine switching from a 0 to a 1 and then back to a 0. If the ramp up doesn't have time to reach it's top before the ramp down begins, the signal never gets to the top and the 1 is never sent. Things that cause this are trying to pack the 1's and 0's too close together (there's your bandwidth limitation), or the ramps getting shallower. What makes the ramps shallow is increased inductance, which will go up with cable length and, to a lesser degree, those manufacturing tolerances and material choices. (On a side note, this is also what puts limits on the speed of your computer's processor and why overclocking works. If you increase the voltage pushing the signal, the ramp-up's get steeper. Therefor you can pack them in tighter.)
2. If the signal voltage reaches it's top, the data gets through. If it doesn't, than bits are lost. If you are at the very edge of what a cable can do in terms of bandwidth or inductance, than you can have some of the bits lost but not all, and still render a picture, although it will be filled with sparklies and obvious errors from the missing information. Short of that extreme case, there will be no change in the quality of the information being sent. This is the big difference with analog signals. With digital you either get no picture, a picture that is obviously broken, or a perfect picture. There is pretty-good-but-could-be-better possibility. That's why the Audioholics comparison listed everything as pass-fail. Either every 1 and 0 that when into the cable came out, or at least some didn't. This is the critical thing that I was looking for because it tells me there is no point in chasing upgradeitis when it comes to HDMI cables looking to find better PQ. In the physical universe in which we live, it's not possible.
3. And lastly, back to the Audioholics comparison, at short lengths like 6ft, which is my longest one, every single cable passed. They didn't test no-name cables from Wal-Mart, but if they did, I would expect them to pass as well. Anything will work at 6ft. At 25ft, the only things that passed 3.4 Gbit/sec were Monoprice ($40) and Monster ($400). That is very interesting! Any longer, and nothing passed. But as the article explains, all current HD signals only use 1.8 Gbit/sec. That allows twice as much time for ramps, so everything passed at that length, and most things passed even longer.
Thanks everyone for the input, this has been very educational for me. This brought back memories of college for me where we covered a lot of this stuff but I'd forgotten it since. If I knew back then that sitting in class watching the professor put equations on the blackboard would apply to my home theater interest years later, I may not have slept through class as much.
Thank you for the synopsis - I actually understood what you wrote, too, so great job! Now assuming that is true, about a digital cable either passing no video signal or a broken up one or a perfect picture, what you are saying is that if it does pass video, the color will not vary from cable to cable? That is, the shade of blue from cable A will be exactly the same shade as on cable B on all of the pixels that successfully are transmitted from one end of the cable to the other?
Joined: Jun 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 51 Location: Kansas
Re: Emotiva HDMI cable's « Reply #43 on Nov 7, 2009, 10:51pm »
That is my best understanding based on the information I have. The cable cannot change the color blue. The display certainly can as it decodes it and interprets it, but not the cable. If there is a problem with the cable and bits are getting dropped, that it would not show up as a different hue, it would show up as gibberish. So that makes it difficult to understand rather's observation about warmer colors with the Emo cable. Obvious questions would be to ask whether he's absolutely sure that he used the same HDMI input on the TV in both cases (different inputs could have separate display setting options). And did he try switching back and forth between the two cables (did the very act of changing it cause something in the TV or in the player to reset?). If it's not either of those things then I'm out of ideas, but I don't see how it could be up to the cable. There must be some other factor we're not taking into account.
And as for the problems experienced by stillearning, they definitely sound like the dropped bits described in those articles. He's never said how long a run it is between his source and the projector, but it seems it must be a fairly long one in order to see those things. In which case which brand can make a difference, as shown by Audioholics. In his place, I would test it by bringing the source and display close together temporarily and using a cheap 6-ft cable. If that works without errors, then the solution to his problem must be some combination of re-positioning things to use shorter runs and using a higher-quality cable that is able to go further without dropping bits. Also the Audioholics article talks at the end about signal boosters that might be the perfect thing for him if he can't close the distance. If, on the other hand, he is still seeing those errors at only 6 feet, then there is a major problem with either the source or the display in how it encodes or decodes the data, and no cable will help him.
Sorry Rather, but it was a lousy attempt at a bad joke. You got a "pain in the rear" and I wondered where you had hooked up the other end of the HDMI cable?
oooohhhhhh . . NOW I get it . .. [imitates frank caliendo imitating george w bush] very funny
The cable cannot change the color blue. The display certainly can as it decodes it and interprets it, but not the cable. If there is a problem with the cable and bits are getting dropped, that it would not show up as a different hue, it would show up as gibberish. So that makes it difficult to understand rather's observation about warmer colors with the Emo cable.
That's kind of correct, but not entirely so. You are not guaranteed a "perfect" picture or sound unless the data is both complete and in time. Digital-to-analog conversion (whether we're talking audio or video, the same idea applies) plows forward with whatever bits are available. If the bits all arrive correctly, but not at exactly the right rate, they will still be reconstructed into an analog waveform, but those timing errors (known as jitter) will distort that waveform. Capacitance is one way a cable can affect this, absorbing and then releasing part of the energy of the signal, delaying and blurring the arrival of individual 1's and 0's. Also, impedance mismatches can cause portions of the signal to be reflected back toward the source, further muddling things.
That's how the cable can "change the color blue", however slightly. If the timing is off, it will make a difference (even if it's a minor one).
The cable cannot change the color blue. The display certainly can as it decodes it and interprets it, but not the cable. If there is a problem with the cable and bits are getting dropped, that it would not show up as a different hue, it would show up as gibberish. So that makes it difficult to understand rather's observation about warmer colors with the Emo cable.
That's kind of correct, but not entirely so. You are not guaranteed a "perfect" picture or sound unless the data is both complete and in time. Digital-to-analog conversion (whether we're talking audio or video, the same idea applies) plows forward with whatever bits are available. If the bits all arrive correctly, but not at exactly the right rate, they will still be reconstructed into an analog waveform, but those timing errors (known as jitter) will distort that waveform. Capacitance is one way a cable can affect this, absorbing and then releasing part of the energy of the signal, delaying and blurring the arrival of individual 1's and 0's. Also, impedance mismatches can cause portions of the signal to be reflected back toward the source, further muddling things.
That's how the cable can "change the color blue", however slightly. If the timing is off, it will make a difference (even if it's a minor one).
Joined: Jun 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 51 Location: Kansas
Re: Emotiva HDMI cable's « Reply #48 on Nov 8, 2009, 11:42am »
Jitter is another one of those things I would like to learn more about sometime. What you say brings up a couple of questions. One of the 4 main twisted pairs in an HDMI cable is dedicated to the "clock channel". I haven't seen anything that explains what the clock information is for, but might it be the extra time-domain information necessary to prevent jitter? I don't know, perhaps the HDMI designers were not that clever. And also, in a digital display like DLP or LCD, is there even an analog conversion step where the waveform can get distorted by errors in the time domain? If the logic to turn pixels on and off individually is inherently digital, I would expect a digital-digital translation. But then, I have even less knowledge of what goes on inside an LCD screen than I have about jitter. But if you want to know anything about airplanes, I'm your man.
The cable cannot change the color blue. The display certainly can as it decodes it and interprets it, but not the cable. If there is a problem with the cable and bits are getting dropped, that it would not show up as a different hue, it would show up as gibberish. So that makes it difficult to understand rather's observation about warmer colors with the Emo cable.
That's kind of correct, but not entirely so. You are not guaranteed a "perfect" picture or sound unless the data is both complete and in time. Digital-to-analog conversion (whether we're talking audio or video, the same idea applies) plows forward with whatever bits are available. If the bits all arrive correctly, but not at exactly the right rate, they will still be reconstructed into an analog waveform, but those timing errors (known as jitter) will distort that waveform. Capacitance is one way a cable can affect this, absorbing and then releasing part of the energy of the signal, delaying and blurring the arrival of individual 1's and 0's. Also, impedance mismatches can cause portions of the signal to be reflected back toward the source, further muddling things.
That's how the cable can "change the color blue", however slightly. If the timing is off, it will make a difference (even if it's a minor one).
Theoretically true, but the amount of jitter necessary to cause an appreciable affect on an HDMI signal is extreme. Much more so than the subtle differences between cables of similar length. Any problems that extreme in signaling is going to manifest with handshake issues long before any picture is seen.
Joined: Oct 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 212 Location: Brampton, Ontario, Canada
Re: Emotiva HDMI cable's « Reply #50 on Nov 8, 2009, 4:46pm »
Lot's of great info/link's here!
I gotta go against "the grain" here because i DID see a noticeable difference between cable's and they were all 2m or less I guess it is one of those thing's you have to experience for yourself
I'm looking forward to my Emo cable's which should hopefully be here sometime next week
This effect of using the Emotiva cable reminded me of a warm setting......Because of this unexpected turn of events, Its a real pain in the rear.....
Ah, excuse me? Exactly how were you hooking up the HDMI cables?
BTW, I also own the Oppo 83 and currently have it hooked up with the OEM HDMI cable which looks identical to the Monoprice and the PQ looks stunning on Blu-Ray. I have a long HDMI cable (4m) being shipped for hook up to my Panny plasma. I will definitely be interested if I see the same improvement with the Emo HDMI.
I already have a .5m Emo HDMI which I will use between the Oppo 83 and the XMC-1. The only question I have about it is whether the flat design will be any advantage? It seems that one cannot flex it sideways if needed in a tight corner (without giving it a half twist), whereas the round HDMI cables can flex in any direction. Has anyone found any problems with the flatness? Thanks.
The flat design is supposed to be better over longer distances.
The only question I have about it is whether the flat design will be any advantage? It seems that one cannot flex it sideways if needed in a tight corner (without giving it a half twist), whereas the round HDMI cables can flex in any direction. Has anyone found any problems with the flatness? Thanks.
The flat design is supposed to be better over longer distances.
Thanks jlafrenz. Mine should arrive tomorrow and I'll check it out.
The One Who Dies With The Most Emo Toys Wins! Disclaimer: This poster is not responsible for any insults either directly or indirectly directed at any other Emotiva Lounge idiots unless specifically directed at said idiot.
Joined: Feb 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 212 Location: Saipan
Re: Emotiva HDMI cable's « Reply #53 on Nov 10, 2009, 5:57pm »
So those of you with the Emo cable, how tight is the connection. It seems to me that the connection could be the weak link in the chain for some of us.
I would think that if data can be lost, then the data that creates color could as well. If the TV is using RGB leds and some of those fire wrong you will get different hues but my brain says it would be inconsistant if it's a data transfer issue.
I'm kind of a tard so set me strait.
dreadpiratemarc, thanks for the lesson in English even I could understand.
Hey guy's! I'm in need of some HDMI cable's and have been checking out the Emotiva's (damn sexy lookin' ) and was curious if anyone here is using them? If so what are your impression's? I would need them to be able to do complete lossless audio/video, they need to be capable of at least 10.2gps, 12bit & x.v colour, DTS HD master, etc, etc...
Please don't say all HDMI's are the same because they are not I have tried a bunch including Rosewill's from Newegg, some low line monster cable stuff that i got from Futureshop and various "no name" brand's from local Pc store's and was not satisfied with any of them as they all exhibitted some type of "glitch" So far by trying to save money on HDMI cable's i have spent more than i should have! All because i thought all HDMI's are created equal
Plus i think they would look great with my other Emo cable's
Thank's
In terms of sound and video quality ALL HDMI cables are the same. All they do is transmit 1's and 0's. In terms of how rugged they are is another story. I run Philips myself from Walmart and they have worked flawless. Nice rugged jacket cheap price.
In terms of sound and video quality ALL HDMI cables are the same. All they do is transmit 1's and 0's. In terms of how rugged they are is another story. I run Philips myself from Walmart and they have worked flawless. Nice rugged jacket cheap price.
Thank you for telling me what difference's i have seen/heard/experienced for myself on my system, in my home over the past 6 month's.
If you feel there is no difference in SQ/PQ between HDMI's, or any cable for that matter then more power to ya!
I hope the postman is quick to deliver i'd like to get everything back up and running soon time
In terms of sound and video quality ALL HDMI cables are the same. All they do is transmit 1's and 0's. In terms of how rugged they are is another story. I run Philips myself from Walmart and they have worked flawless. Nice rugged jacket cheap price.
Thank you for telling me what difference's i have seen/heard/experienced for myself on my system, in my home over the past 6 month's.
If you feel there is no difference in SQ/PQ between HDMI's, or any cable for that matter then more power to ya!
I hope the postman is quick to deliver i'd like to get everything back up and running soon time
There isn't a real professional audio/video engineer that would be caught dead buying all these overpriced aftermarket HDMI cables that claim sound and video improvements. The notion is a joke. The only reason the pros spend more money on cables is not audio/video quality (copper is copper), its mechanical quality. They need cables to stand up to the rigors of the road, which is a far cry from the calm of a home theater system. Regarding HDMI cables, if there are a problem in your video or audio, you will know it. The thing about digital that is very different from analog is that it does not fail gracefully. The moment there's a problem, you'll know - it's obvious. If you don't see speckles all over your screen or sound drops and it works, you’re fine. The math behind the decoding of digital signals does not allow for any slight degradation in picture or audio quality like lack of sharpness or not as much color depth or detail in the sound. If the BER (bit error rate) becomes too great, you start getting sparkles on screen and sound drops. If it gets greater still the signal will lose sync and it won't work. If you have a sufficient BER, no more "bandwidth" or anything will give you a better audio or picture quality, period. If you want to upgrade your HDMI cables for the sake of a higher quality mechanical or more aesthetically pleasing cable then by all means do so, but if you think your going to get better PQ or SQ, then just like the magic santa power cables its a proven myth.
Again if someone wants to try and disprove this notion, I would be willing to put up and bet $10k of my own money against your hard earned cash and fly you in from wheverever your located on my dime and do a blind audio/video comparision test between properly functioning HDMI cables to prove its impossible to tell the difference.
Joined: May 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 2,285 Location: N. California
Re: Emotiva HDMI cable's « Reply #58 on Nov 11, 2009, 10:39am »
While it is undoubtedly true that some audio and video cables can introduce changes to a signal, in every case I've ever seen that change is negative: an attenuation of bandwidth, loss of bits, an introduction of an outside interference signal or noise, or a crossover-like filtering effect. These changes to the original signal are generically referred to as distortion or losses, and while some people find some of these effects pleasing to their ears it defeats the real purpose of an interconnect cable which is to pass the signal from one component to another unaltered. Engineers like myself advocate that the "best" cables are those which accomplish this feat, and do so in a EMI shielded, well-built and mechanically robust package. That's really all that matters from an engineering perspective...
While it is undoubtedly true that some audio and video cables can introduce changes to a signal, in every case I've ever seen that change is negative...
I'd certainly agree with that. The "best" cable for the job is the one that has no perceptible effect on the signal.
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I guess it is one of those thing's you have to experience for yourself 
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) and was curious if anyone here is using them? If so what are your impression's? I would need them to be able to do complete lossless audio/video, they need to be capable of at least 10.2gps, 12bit & x.v colour, DTS HD master, etc, etc...
I have tried a bunch including Rosewill's from Newegg, some low line monster cable stuff that i got from Futureshop and various "no name" brand's from local Pc store's and was not satisfied with any of them as they all exhibitted some type of "glitch" 
So far by trying to save money on HDMI cable's i have spent more than i should have! All because i thought all HDMI's are created equal 
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