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repdetect
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Oppo bdp-83SE analog VS umc-1
« Thread Started on Aug 20, 2011, 10:36am »

Did a search but could not find any mention of this.

Has anyone compared the analog output of the oppo-83SE to the UMC-1?
I have an SE and don't know if there is any difference in sound and if it's worth getting the UMC-1 to replace an Outlaw 990, especially since I only use the 990 as an analog passthrough for the SE.

I am now running the 83SE analog outs into the Outlaw 990.

Has anyone compared the oppo 83se hdmi out into the UMC-1 to the Oppo analog out?

What's the thinking on any difference between the Cirrus & Sabre chipsets?

On the fence on getting a UMC-1. A bit concerned about ongoing bugs, but since I am not hooked up to a cable/sat box and run hdmi directly to my display, I think I will be ok.

Also, if I send a signal. either 2ch or MCH, to the UMC-1 analog inputs, is there any processing I can do to that analog signal in the UMC-1 without digitizing it, i.e. remaining in theanalog domain?

Thanks in advance.

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doc1963
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Re: Oppo bdp-83SE analog VS umc-1
« Reply #1 on Aug 21, 2011, 8:52am »

Aug 20, 2011, 10:36am, repdetect wrote:

I have an SE and don't know if there is any difference in sound and if it's worth getting the UMC-1 to replace an Outlaw 990, especially since I only use the 990 as an analog passthrough for the SE..... I am now running the 83SE analog outs into the Outlaw 990.

I don't know if you realize this, but the 990 is NOT a true analog pass through. The 990 re-digitizes the analog inputs (including the 7.1 inputs) to apply bass management.

This additional AD/DA conversion totally negates any benefit of the superior Sabre DACs of the BDP-83.

I've previously owned the 990 (which my UMC-1 replaced) and 83SE (replaced by a BDP-93) combination. Actually, I bought the 83 before the SE version was released. Once the "SE" was announced, and an upgrade path was offered, I jumped on it.

Much to my surprise, I heard very little difference and thought that the "SE" upgrade was a total waste of money. It wasn't until I purchased a USP-1 (my first Emotiva purchase) that I realized how wrong I was. I luckily had access to a "standard" 83 for comparison, and yes, there's a huge difference between the two (83 vs. 83SE) that was totally veiled by the 990.

I did contact Outlaw regarding the analog path of the 990 and they would have you believe the the ADC used in the 990 is "good enough" to not reveal a difference. That is not true in this case. The difference was quite apparent. With Outlaw processors prior to the 990, the analog paths were always "straight wire" and utilized analog bass management. With the 990, Outlaw chose a different design approach which, to me, could have remained as it was.

The UMC-1 does incorporate "true" analog paths on ALL analog inputs using the "Direct" mode. The 7.1 analog input is "Direct" by default and no processing is possible (by design) using that input. Processing is possible on the remaining 2-channel analog inputs ("Stereo" for example if you want to induce bass management for a 2.1 channel mix), but an AD/DA conversion would be required.

Aug 20, 2011, 10:36am, repdetect wrote:

Has anyone compared the analog output of the oppo-83SE to the UMC-1?..... Has anyone compared the oppo 83se hdmi out into the UMC-1 to the Oppo analog out?

Yes, In my testing between the UMC-1 (using a coax connection from the 83SE) and the 83SE (connected either through my USP-1 or through an analog connection of the UMC-1 itself), I found that while the Sabre DACs of the 83SE had a "very slight" performance edge, the difference was not so great that it would quantify the $400 difference in price between a standard 83 connected to a UMC-1 (using the 83 as a transport and allowing the UMC-1 to perform the processing and conversion) and an 83SE via analog.

Since I already owned the 83SE, that was a moot point, but "if" I had to do it again, I'd be perfectly happy with a UMC-1/BDP-83 combo and not feel that I was missing anything.

I'm not saying that my 83SE wasn't a damn fine player, what I'm saying that the UMC-1 was (and is) that good!!!

Aug 20, 2011, 10:36am, repdetect wrote:

What's the thinking on any difference between the Cirrus & Sabre chipsets?

Refer to the above as it's not always quite as simple as that...

It's more a matter of how a particular chipset is implemented and "fine tuned".

It is well know by those of us here on the Forum that the UMC-1 is a spectacular performer when it comes to the reproduction of music. Emotiva has taken a very good Cirrus DAC and groomed it to be very "musical" where others have not.

Aug 20, 2011, 10:36am, repdetect wrote:

On the fence on getting a UMC-1. A bit concerned about ongoing bugs, but since I am not hooked up to a cable/sat box and run hdmi directly to my display, I think I will be ok.

Well, for starters, with that configuration, I don't see as where you'd have a problem. I'm assuming that you would connect the 7.1 analog outs of the 83 to the 7.1 inputs of the UMC-1. To me, that wouldn't be your best option for several "beneficial" reasons. The lack-luster bass management of the BDP-83 being my biggest area of concern.

To ease your fear of the "bugs" (of which I don't think you'd encounter anyway considering you don't use a cable box or DVR), please see this post...

http://emotivalounge.proboards.com/index....ay&thread=19396

Aug 20, 2011, 10:36am, repdetect wrote:

Also, if I send a signal. either 2ch or MCH, to the UMC-1 analog inputs, is there any processing I can do to that analog signal in the UMC-1 without digitizing it, i.e. remaining in the analog domain?

No, the UMC-1 (or any other current processor) performs processing (DSP), post processing (EQ and "room correction") and bass management in the digital domain and therefore must convert the incoming analog signal to digital. This includes your current Outlaw 990.

You'd need bass management to be performed in the analog domain, and in the current age of digital room correction (Audyssey, EmoQ, etc...), you'd be hard pressed to find a current processor that employed that.

For 2-channel, you "could" do what I (and many others) have done and also incorporate a USP-1 along with the UMC-1. The USP-1 is a pure analog 2 channel preamp which does employ analog bass management for 2.1 incorporation of a subwoofer. It also has an "HT Bypass" feature that allows it to co-habitate transparently within a multipurpose audio environment.

In addition to trying to address your specific questions, I'll add that there are many other benefits to upgrading to the UMC-1.

One of the many great things about the UMC-1 is that you can configure several different inputs using the same source. For example, you can configure an input using your 83 for watching video using HDMI. Configure another input using your 83 for listening to music via a digital input (coax or optical) with processing. Configure another input using your 83 to listen to SACD or DVD Audio CDs using the 7.1 analog inputs.... and so on.... you get the idea.

On the video side, you already have a highly regarded video processor built right into your 83 and you can continue to utilize that while still utilizing the UMC-1 merely as a video switch, and a superb sounding audio processor, by just setting the UMC-1 to software "pass-through".

I, having utilized the same exact hardware configuration that you currently own, would have no reservation (all things considered) recommending the UMC-1 as a replacement for your 990. I think that you would be very pleasantly surprised. It is an outstanding sonic performer at an outstanding price!

Sorry to have been so long winded, but I hope this helps...

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repdetect
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Re: Oppo bdp-83SE analog VS umc-1
« Reply #2 on Aug 21, 2011, 11:56am »

Doc1963 I can't thank you enough for your in depth reply. Very much appreciated.

Your answers have enabled me to make a decision, and the UMC-1 at $499 has made it even easier.

I also didn't hear any difference in the SE version ( I went the same upgrade path as you) for bass managed MCH but did hear a subtle but consistent difference with 2 CH analog (no bass management thus no re-digitizing).

One note on your 1st comment-

"I don't know if you realize this, but the 990 is NOT a true analog pass through. The 990 re-digitizes the analog inputs (including the 7.1 inputs) to apply bass management.".

What you above say is true but there is one exception (isn't that always the case!) , which of course applies to my setup.
If you set all speakers to LARGE there is no digitizing in the 990, allowing analog passthrough, but then no bass management either.

I have listened to my system with bass management and without, and with my setup I prefer and run all my speakers LARGE, especially for hi-res music sources (SACD etc. ), and bass managed only for movies.

Since my L&R are full range (to 22Hz) and my center is good to 40Hz, and the rear CH's rarely see anything below 80Hz, LARGE all around has sounded fine.

In any case, I am anxious to compare the analog pass through of the UMC-1 and Oppo to the HDMI output of the Oppo into UMC-1.

"Sorry to have been so long winded, but I hope this helps..."

Not at all, the thoughtfulness reflected in your reply is what makes the Emotiva such a great forum.

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Tarheel72
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Re: Oppo bdp-83SE analog VS umc-1
« Reply #3 on Aug 27, 2011, 9:42am »

I prefer the DAC in my bluray player and have always used the analog outputs. And the UMC-1 does nothing to the analog input signal, except you do have the ability to control the input levels of the various channels. However, what I discovered after I got the UMC-1 was that unlike my previous receivers you can only lower the channel levels, there is no way to increase them. And if you use analog inputs you know that you have to adjust the .1 input approximately 10db to correct for sub level on the track. DSP does this automatically but when you bypass the digital stream you lose this ability. The only solution I could find, other than having to reset the sub level every time I viewed a bluray, was to lower the level of every channel in the bluray bass management by 10db, except the sub, which remains at zero. Then in the UMC-1 I boost the analog input level by a factor of 10, thereby offsetting the changes and effectively raising all channels to zero, but raising the sub by 10db. That seems to work and eliminates the need to adjust the sub each time I watch a bluray.

Bass management is tricky on the UMC-1. As I understand it, when you do the tone test it sets the level for the .1 signal but that changes in real life because any signal below the crossover point on the other channels is also sent to the sub. So you may have to tweak it in the setup menu to account for this, even from source to source. I wish they would fix this with a FW upgrade and add the ability to raise the sub level as well as lower it in the setup menu. I think most if not all other high end units offer this. Even my cheap receivers did.

« Last Edit: Aug 27, 2011, 9:44am by Tarheel72 »

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repdetect
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Re: Oppo bdp-83SE analog VS umc-1
« Reply #4 on Aug 27, 2011, 11:33am »

Tarheel72

Thanks for your comments.

I preferred the analog outs on my 83SE after extended comparisons of it to the oppo's digital outs via coax, I couldn't use HDMI at the time (Outlaw 990).

After receiving my umc-1 I naturally set it up in analog mode and listened for about 2 hours,liked the sound but I didn't hear any difference between the oppo's analog out (Direct) and the umc-1.

As a lark, I hooked up HDMI from the Oppo to the umc-1 and listened to CD, SACD's DVD-Audio and some HD blu-ray music.
I was blown away by the improvement in sound quality compared to the Oppo's analog.

I remember when Oppo first introduced the 83 SE they said if you will be using HDMI for audio, don't bother with the SE upgrade. I snickered at the time. "yeah right, HDMI is going to sound better than these Sabre chips."

Well, it does sound better to my ears, and it isn't a subtle difference. And when you add EQ'ing ability to the improved sound... well it's adios analog for this guy.

I paid less for the umc-1 ($500) than my Outlaw 990 several years ago ($600). Unbelievable value.

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