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Post by johndavidson on Aug 7, 2010 10:02:32 GMT -5
My question would be do you ever test at full power for 4 hours continuous on normal household circuits (15 and 20 amp circuit)? In short, no. Why would you run an amp at full power on all channels for 4 hours? What would this prove? What useful information could be derived from this when it is never used in this way? Music by nature is dynamic and not continuous so a 4 hour full power test would not result any useful data so what would be the point? "The UPA-5 delivers 125 watts of continuous power with all channels driven. That's the key word. 'Continuous' means...well, just that. Continuous. Not a peak rating. Not the rating the amp achieves while being pushed to its limits, putting out a distorted and muddy sound. Continuous power means the amplifier is in its comfort zone, doing what's its designed to do - giving you an exceptional theater and music experience without breaking a sweat." My point is how then can you make this claim? Sweeps that last only a few hundred mili seconds does not prove continuous output. My back ground is industrial electronics and controls. As stated continuous means just that continuous 24/7, with out interruption. I am not slamming Emotiva I am just asking have you preformed testing that would truly reflects you marketing literature?
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Aug 7, 2010 10:09:08 GMT -5
In short, no. Why would you run an amp at full power on all channels for 4 hours? What would this prove? What useful information could be derived from this when it is never used in this way? Music by nature is dynamic and not continuous so a 4 hour full power test would not result any useful data so what would be the point? "The UPA-5 delivers 125 watts of continuous power with all channels driven. That's the key word. 'Continuous' means...well, just that. Continuous. Not a peak rating. Not the rating the amp achieves while being pushed to its limits, putting out a distorted and muddy sound. Continuous power means the amplifier is in its comfort zone, doing what's its designed to do - giving you an exceptional theater and music experience without breaking a sweat." My point is how then can you make this claim? Sweeps that last only a few hundred mili seconds does not prove continuous output. My back ground is industrial electronics and controls. As stated continuous means just that continuous 24/7, with out interruption. I am not slamming Emotiva I am just asking have you preformed testing that would truly reflects you marketing literature? Then, with all due respect, like I said you must not understand what audio specifications mean. "Continuous" power rating of output ICs is absolutely determined using short signal cycles, and through the engineering done in things like thermal management design of the hardware.
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Post by johndavidson on Aug 7, 2010 10:15:17 GMT -5
"The UPA-5 delivers 125 watts of continuous power with all channels driven. That's the key word. 'Continuous' means...well, just that. Continuous. Not a peak rating. Not the rating the amp achieves while being pushed to its limits, putting out a distorted and muddy sound. Continuous power means the amplifier is in its comfort zone, doing what's its designed to do - giving you an exceptional theater and music experience without breaking a sweat." My point is how then can you make this claim? Sweeps that last only a few hundred mili seconds does not prove continuous output. My back ground is industrial electronics and controls. As stated continuous means just that continuous 24/7, with out interruption. I am not slamming Emotiva I am just asking have you preformed testing that would truly reflects you marketing literature? Then, with all due respect, like I said you must not understand what audio specifications mean. "Continuous" power rating of output ICs is absolutely determined using short signal cycles, and through the engineering done in things like thermal management design of the hardware. What is ICs?
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Aug 7, 2010 10:24:24 GMT -5
Then, with all due respect, like I said you must not understand what audio specifications mean. "Continuous" power rating of output ICs is absolutely determined using short signal cycles, and through the engineering done in things like thermal management design of the hardware. What is ICs? Integrated Circuits. The devices that create the output.
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Post by johndavidson on Aug 7, 2010 10:43:08 GMT -5
Integrated Circuits. The devices that create the output. In this case I think it is you who does not understand. ICs come in 2 flavors digital and linear. Digital IC power ratings are given based on the max frequency that can propagated and output fan-out. Linear ICs or based on continuous power out. At least this has been my understanding for years. I can always pull my data books out if you have one in mind? Then the other fact is that these amps are not ICs they may have some ICs in them. I don't know about Emotiva but it is not uncommon for some manufactures to use IC op-amps for their input stages. Also, on the product page of every Emotiva amp it states that the amp has a discrete output stage. And then there is the simple fact when you state continuous and then say that is exactly what you mean, I don't think anyone reading it would take it any other way. I hope you understand that the quote is form the Emotiva product page, I didn't write it.
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Aug 7, 2010 10:52:32 GMT -5
Integrated Circuits. The devices that create the output. In this case I think it is you who does not understand. ICs come in 2 flavors digital and linear. Digital IC power ratings are given based on the max frequency that can propagated and output fan-out. Linear ICs or based on continuous power out. At least this has been my understanding for years. I can always pull my data books out if you have one in mind? Then the other fact is that these amps are not ICs they may have some ICs in them. I don't know about Emotiva but it is not uncommon for some manufactures to use IC op-amps for their input stages. Also, on the product page of every Emotiva amp it states that the amp has a discrete output stage. And then there is the simple fact when you state continuous and then say that is exactly what you mean, I don't think anyone reading it would take it any other way. I hope you understand that the quote is form the Emotiva product page, I didn't write it. Yes yes yes, I know all that. I'm using the term ICs as a generic shorthand for whatever output device the amplifier uses, which is relatively common practice in the industry. I do not know what sort of ICs the XPA series uses although I suspect they are regulated MosFETs or some variant from that family. Have you ever tested audio amplifiers?
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Post by johndavidson on Aug 7, 2010 11:00:26 GMT -5
In this case I think it is you who does not understand. ICs come in 2 flavors digital and linear. Digital IC power ratings are given based on the max frequency that can propagated and output fan-out. Linear ICs or based on continuous power out. At least this has been my understanding for years. I can always pull my data books out if you have one in mind? Then the other fact is that these amps are not ICs they may have some ICs in them. I don't know about Emotiva but it is not uncommon for some manufactures to use IC op-amps for their input stages. Also, on the product page of every Emotiva amp it states that the amp has a discrete output stage. And then there is the simple fact when you state continuous and then say that is exactly what you mean, I don't think anyone reading it would take it any other way. I hope you understand that the quote is form the Emotiva product page, I didn't write it. Yes yes yes, I know all that. I'm using the term ICs as a generic shorthand for whatever output device the amplifier uses, which is relatively common practice in the industry. I do not know what sort of ICs the XPA series uses although I suspect they are regulated MosFETs or some variant from that family. Have you ever tested audio amplifiers? I have but it has been many years. The term IC is not commonly use to describe discrete components at least not in the 30 years I have been working in electronics. Maybe you can share your experiences.
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RSavage
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Post by RSavage on Aug 7, 2010 11:09:59 GMT -5
Maybe you can share your experiences. Oh geez....I hope the next line isn't : OK clear off the table and unzip Is there ANY other industry/hobby where there is more chest puffing and dick comparing than this one?
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Aug 7, 2010 11:12:39 GMT -5
I've been working in audio design on and off since 1973 and always used "ICs" and "devices" pretty much interchangably. Sorry about that.
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Aug 7, 2010 11:15:50 GMT -5
Maybe you can share your experiences. Oh geez....I hope the next line isn't : OK clear off the table and unzip Is there ANY other industry/hobby where there is more chest puffing and dick comparing than this one? ;D ;D
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Post by johndavidson on Aug 7, 2010 11:35:12 GMT -5
Oh geez....I hope the next line isn't : OK clear off the table and unzip Is there ANY other industry/hobby where there is more chest puffing and dick comparing than this one? ;D ;D Chose you weapons we meet dawn!!!! ;D I am taking it friendly I hope everyone else is.
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Post by wattsup on Aug 7, 2010 11:48:17 GMT -5
Maybe you can share your experiences. Oh geez....I hope the next line isn't : OK clear off the table and unzip Is there ANY other industry/hobby where there is more chest puffing and dick comparing than this one? Uh, the porn industry maybe?
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Post by wattsup on Aug 7, 2010 11:57:11 GMT -5
My question would be do you ever test at full power for 4 hours continuous on normal household circuits (15 and 20 amp circuit)? In short, no. Why would you run an amp at full power on all channels for 4 hours? What would this prove? What useful information could be derived from this when it is never used in this way? Music by nature is dynamic and not continuous so a 4 hour full power test would not result any useful data so what would be the point? Being a 'lay person' I gotta say this would be the definitive answer for me. In order to have any hope that specifications will be compariable and thus useful for the consumer it is important to have standards for obtaining the testing data... the criteria for how a test is to be run needs to be specified and so I am assuming here that the FTC is also a standards organization as well?... I don't actually know.
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Post by roadrunner on Aug 7, 2010 14:03:22 GMT -5
I am surprised to no one has pointed out that Emotiva publishes the performance of their amps at the bottom of each Product Page. The PDF file results for both a 4 Ohm and 8 Ohm load are provided for your use. The graphs show the results from a randomly select amplifier from the warehouse stock for each model of amp that Emotiva sells. These files will tell you far more about the performance of the amps than the "static" numbers provided by most other vendors.
If you have not already viewed those PDF results, this is where you should concentrate your efforts when attempting to understand how well a particular beand and model performs. It would be great if more vendors provided similar test result for you to use in doing a meaningful comparison between competing products. When you study the published PDF results you will find that Emotiva routinely publishes very conservative specifications.
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Post by johndavidson on Aug 7, 2010 14:42:47 GMT -5
I am surprised to no one has pointed out that Emotiva publishes the performance of their amps at the bottom of each Product Page. The PDF file results for both a 4 Ohm and 8 Ohm load are provided for your use. The graphs show the results from a randomly select amplifier from the warehouse stock for each model of amp that Emotiva sells. These files will tell you far more about the performance of the amps than the "static" numbers provided by most other vendors. If you have not already viewed those PDF results, this is where you should concentrate your efforts when attempting to understand how well a particular beand and model performs. It would be great if more vendors provided similar test result for you to use in doing a meaningful comparison between competing products. When you study the published PDF results you will find that Emotiva routinely publishes very conservative specifications. I have viewed these and all but the XPA-1 show broadband sweeps at less than full power. The test that give sweep times are for a few hundred mili seconds. None of these test IMHO show what these amp can do ACD continuously. So if you claim in your marketing literature that these amps can provide these power outputs continuously where is the empirical data to show this? And if it can why not test it long term on the bench to back up you claim?
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Post by eljaycanuck on Aug 7, 2010 14:43:44 GMT -5
This thread has piqued my curiosity, so I took a look at the 8-ohm PDF for the UPA-5. This is what I read: - Pg. 1: Looks like equipment info. - Pg. 2: Reference levels at rated power output (not sure what the results indicate) - Pg. 3: RMS level and gain using 1KHz frequency - Pg. 4: THD+N ratio using 1KHz frequency - Pg. 5: An 800ms sweep from 10Hz to 20KHz - Pg. 6: Relative level / deviation using 1KHz frequency - Pg. 7: S/N ratio using 1KHz frequency - Pg. 8: THD vs. power using 1KHz frequency - Pg. 9: Response across bandwidth, 20Hz-20KHz, 31 points - Pg. 10: THD+N ratio (no test criteria) Aside from perhaps the test on Pg. 9 (but why "31 points"?), I don't see in there anything that indicates: - "Full power with all channels driven across the entire frequency spectrum." or - "125 watts of continuous power with all channels driven. ... Continuous. Not a peak rating. Not the rating the amp achieves while being pushed to its limits, putting out a distorted and muddy sound. Continuous power means the amplifier is in its comfort zone ... " Since I may not be seeing things correctly, any clarification would be appreciated. Thanks!
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topcat
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Post by topcat on Aug 7, 2010 16:06:24 GMT -5
I am surprised to no one has pointed out that Emotiva publishes the performance of their amps at the bottom of each Product Page. The PDF file results for both a 4 Ohm and 8 Ohm load are provided for your use. The graphs show the results from a randomly select amplifier from the warehouse stock for each model of amp that Emotiva sells. These files will tell you far more about the performance of the amps than the "static" numbers provided by most other vendors. If you have not already viewed those PDF results, this is where you should concentrate your efforts when attempting to understand how well a particular beand and model performs. It would be great if more vendors provided similar test result for you to use in doing a meaningful comparison between competing products. When you study the published PDF results you will find that Emotiva routinely publishes very conservative specifications. I have viewed these and all but the XPA-1 show broadband sweeps at less than full power. The test that give sweep times are for a few hundred mili seconds. None of these test IMHO show what these amp can do ACD continuously. So if you claim in your marketing literature that these amps can provide these power outputs continuously where is the empirical data to show this? And if it can why not test it long term on the bench to back up you claim? The term "continuous power" has a common description as noted below. Feature Feature Description RMS (Continuous) Power The amount of continuous power, measured in watts, that an amplifier produces is called RMS power. The higher the RMS figure, the louder and cleaner your music sounds. When choosing an amplifier, the RMS rating is the power rating you should pay most attention to. Also, keep in mind that some manufacturers calculate the RMS power ratings of their amplifiers at different input voltages. For example, an amplifier rated at 100 watts RMS at 12 volts can produce considerably more power than an amp rated at 100 watts RMS at the more typical 14.4 volts.
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Post by johndavidson on Aug 7, 2010 17:54:14 GMT -5
I have viewed these and all but the XPA-1 show broadband sweeps at less than full power. The test that give sweep times are for a few hundred mili seconds. None of these test IMHO show what these amp can do ACD continuously. So if you claim in your marketing literature that these amps can provide these power outputs continuously where is the empirical data to show this? And if it can why not test it long term on the bench to back up you claim? The term "continuous power" has a common description as noted below. Feature Feature Description RMS (Continuous) Power The amount of continuous power, measured in watts, that an amplifier produces is called RMS power. The higher the RMS figure, the louder and cleaner your music sounds. When choosing an amplifier, the RMS rating is the power rating you should pay most attention to. Also, keep in mind that some manufacturers calculate the RMS power ratings of their amplifiers at different input voltages. For example, an amplifier rated at 100 watts RMS at 12 volts can produce considerably more power than an amp rated at 100 watts RMS at the more typical 14.4 volts. Where did this come from? Power is a function of voltage times current. You can produce the exact same power at two different voltage levels as long as the current changes. As the examples you give the current would need to be 8.3 amps @ 12 volts or 6.94amps @14.4 volts. Both equal 100 watts. Since power is measured in watts how is one more than the other? This an honest questions. I am not try to be argumentative.
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RSavage
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Post by RSavage on Aug 7, 2010 19:51:06 GMT -5
Since power is measured in watts how is one more than the other? This an honest questions. I am not try to be argumentative. Oh come on......EVERYONE knows that 12v watts are much more powerful than 14v watts....don't they? Well at least on the internet they are. LOL.......I love this place
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Post by johndavidson on Aug 7, 2010 20:09:14 GMT -5
Since power is measured in watts how is one more than the other? This an honest questions. I am not try to be argumentative. Oh come on......EVERYONE knows that 12v watts are much more powerful than 14v watts....don't they? Well at least on the internet they are. LOL.......I love this place Yeah, you do have to love it don't you!
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