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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2010 7:56:29 GMT -5
These are all great responses. An interesting topic to say the least. I know they have products that attract me, as well as some that I wouldn't touch with a 10' pole, but we'll leave that alone. What surprises me somewhat, is that another co. hasn't sprung up within the industry by copying Emotiva's business model and started to offer their own dynamite equipment at competitive pricing. Great observation. Where's Emotiva's competition to drive prices (not quality) even further down to the floor? The only company that's somewhat close to Emo is Outlaw. Yet, Outlaw cannot touch Emo prices. "Build it and they would come". Emotiva built it and we came. If you're really into home theater, you probably already have one of their Amps. If you head over to www.blu-ray.com/community/, the majority of the Amps used are Emotiva. Even "rich" people (the ones with Bower and Wilkins Diamond series speakers) use Emo. So we know that they have the quality to compete with the Elites in the business. I would really like to see some competition. Maybe a company like Onkyo would buy Outlaw and drive down prices to where their Model 7900 would be $799. I can only dream.
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Erwin.BE
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Post by Erwin.BE on Sept 2, 2010 8:11:42 GMT -5
What surprises me somewhat, is that another co. hasn't sprung up within the industry by copying Emotiva's business model and started to offer their own dynamite equipment at competitive pricing. There's the Swedish XTZ buth I don't think they sell in USA. They have speakers and 2 channel equipment.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2010 14:54:52 GMT -5
As long as Outlaw has their amps built by ATI here in the states they will have a hard time matching Emotiva on price. They do make some real nice amps but to be honest in my set up the difference in sound quality did not match the increase in cost. They are a quality outfit though and their customer service was great when I purchased from them.
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Post by gman1234 on Sept 2, 2010 18:27:30 GMT -5
I believe elite high end items are "reversed priced" from what that elite market will bear. That price being set high and the high price almost being a marketing strategy to create demand from a market segment requiring the status that the high price promotes. It becomes far removed from established economic principles of supply and demand. We hear so much about the law of diminishing returns in this scenario, because the quality is not a function of engineering or materials. A company like Emotiva operates intelligently by goods and services being provided in the most efficient manner, resulting in a benchmark for value we have not yet seen in this industry. Over time the global economy will determine where items are manufactured, particularly companies operating under sound economic principles. There are many fine high end companies out there, but I believe they are simply not interested in laws of numbers. However, there are strength in numbers, and the cost sharing this provides results in true value that I am enjoying very much right now.
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Post by ausman on Sept 2, 2010 20:18:38 GMT -5
when you cut out the middlemen you also save some money, that being said, it is brand name image that sells highend gear like denon, yamaha or onkyo..
with emotiva you are buying skill of the product not the name brand that is associated with the company
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Post by Mr. Ben on Sept 2, 2010 20:40:52 GMT -5
Where's Emotiva's competition to drive prices (not quality) even further down to the floor? I'd consider the main competition to be the main receiver companies. Yamaha, Denon, Marantz, Onkyo, Pioneer, etc. Many of these are price competitive with Emotiva, even with the markup of using 3rd party retailers.
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Post by michaeljhuman on Sept 2, 2010 21:13:25 GMT -5
Some stuff I did not see people mention -
You mentioned Mark Levinson. Mark Levinson uses a much more expensive design than Emotiva. They use a regulated power supply for one thing. A regulated power supply is pretty much another amp. So it's like putting two amps in one box.
Besides using regulated power supplies, some amps are class A. This calls for massive power supplies and heat sinking. This costs more.
Some amps use more expensive components. Which may improve the sound. This is endlessly debated.
Not including class A amps, which could sound better by eliminating the crossover distortion of class AB amps, do any of these improvements make the amp sound better? Again, debatable. I won't pretend to know.
Here's what I think is worth thinking about though. In a number of blind tests, people could not tell amps apart reliably. Sometimes people who considered themselves golden eared audiophiles. Does that mean all amps sound the same? I don't think it proves that. It does prove that SOME amps sound VERY much alike.
So when spending money, where do you want to spend it? On areas where more money is more likely to make a difference like speakers and accoustic room treatments? Or on amps, which are (usually) designed to produce audio with minimal distortion?
There is much to read on this topic if you ever get bored ( I have spent 100's of hours reading everything I could find, and I still find no clear proof either side of the debate is 100% correct.)
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Post by briank on Sept 2, 2010 21:14:41 GMT -5
I've only listened to receivers up to $2k and only in the store but I have yet to hear one that can compete with the USP-1 and UPA-1 combo at home. I also think it's funny that I'm using Emotiva gear and also using $600 a pair interconnects and $1200 a pair speaker cable. Although I did purchase these cables for less than retail, it still cracks me up. Gotta love Emotiva for bringing "HiFi" to the masses.
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Post by psbman on Sept 4, 2010 22:06:05 GMT -5
Emo has a man named Lonnie who is their "mad scientist" so-to-speak. He is the R&D team and is VERY skilled at what he does. Since Emo is does not have a team of engineers they are saving money there. Also, Emotiva began as an OEM manufacturer for larger, more expensive brands. What this means is the Emo "team" would design and build products, then those products would be housed in the "shell" of the other companies choosing and branded (and sold) as such. Having all of that experience in developing and manufacturing products certainly has helped them along. The factories used to build Emo products are part of the Emo company. Someone please correct me if I am wrong about this but I believe the factories are indeed owned by Big Dan and are utilized to manufacture not only Emo gear but the re-badged gear Emo develops and makes. Are you serious?? Emotiva is an OEM for more expensive brands? I had no idea that was the case.........please name one of those brands.
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Post by monkumonku on Sept 4, 2010 22:16:13 GMT -5
Emo has a man named Lonnie who is their "mad scientist" so-to-speak. He is the R&D team and is VERY skilled at what he does. Since Emo is does not have a team of engineers they are saving money there. Also, Emotiva began as an OEM manufacturer for larger, more expensive brands. What this means is the Emo "team" would design and build products, then those products would be housed in the "shell" of the other companies choosing and branded (and sold) as such. Having all of that experience in developing and manufacturing products certainly has helped them along. The factories used to build Emo products are part of the Emo company. Someone please correct me if I am wrong about this but I believe the factories are indeed owned by Big Dan and are utilized to manufacture not only Emo gear but the re-badged gear Emo develops and makes. Are you serious?? Emotiva is an OEM for more expensive brands? I had no idea that was the case.........please name one of those brands. Tonewinner, for one. ;D Okay, okay, at the risk of igniting WWIII I retract that. I just couldn't resist. ;D
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Sept 5, 2010 0:06:34 GMT -5
Emo has a man named Lonnie who is their "mad scientist" so-to-speak. He is the R&D team and is VERY skilled at what he does. Since Emo is does not have a team of engineers they are saving money there. Also, Emotiva began as an OEM manufacturer for larger, more expensive brands. What this means is the Emo "team" would design and build products, then those products would be housed in the "shell" of the other companies choosing and branded (and sold) as such. Having all of that experience in developing and manufacturing products certainly has helped them along. The factories used to build Emo products are part of the Emo company. Someone please correct me if I am wrong about this but I believe the factories are indeed owned by Big Dan and are utilized to manufacture not only Emo gear but the re-badged gear Emo develops and makes. Are you serious?? Emotiva is an OEM for more expensive brands? I had no idea that was the case.........please name one of those brands. It's been discussed many times... Emotiva is the "house brand" for Jade Designs, who also manufacture for Alesis, Samson, Parasound, Sherbourne, Hartke...also some Krell and Jamo stuff, among others. The Ultra subs appear to be from an earlier Martin Logan design.
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Post by owtuv on Sept 5, 2010 8:57:30 GMT -5
Are you serious?? Emotiva is an OEM for more expensive brands? I had no idea that was the case.........please name one of those brands. It's been discussed many times... Emotiva is the "house brand" for Jade Designs, who also manufacture for Alesis, Samson, Parasound, Sherbourne, Hartke...also some Krell and Jamo stuff, among others. The Ultra subs appear to be from an earlier Martin Logan design. You canĀ“t be serious. I thought it was common knowledge now that Emotiva sells rebadged products designed and manufactured by Tonewinner, a Chinese OEM. Ole Willy Tuv
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Post by crazyhorse on Sept 5, 2010 10:00:57 GMT -5
wow...you know this forum is funny. You have the people that swear by these amps and then anyone who says otherwise or has a problem is "bashing" emo, yet people constantly will say that there is no point in buying a higher end amp, or that its just "marketing" that makes their prices higher ect.
Its getting old and even though your not coming out and saying "well Krell is expensive and is just a name" its still bashing it and its getting annoying.
There is more that goes into making an amp than just parts and selling it. You also have research, the type of amp your making, manf. cost, storage cost ect ect. And I'm sorry you would be hardpress to find the same type of caps, power supplies ect that are in a Krell than you would find in an Emo amp. If you don't believe me take them to a repair shop and have them dissect both amps and let you know. There is a lower cost on emo products for a reason, not everything is going to be "high quality"
Also when comparing higher end amps you are also comparing different kind of amps as well. Krell is normally a class A that can easily double down in power all the way to 1 ohm stable. Emo on most of their amps, save maybe their mono block can not do this. They are also a class A/B and is a different design and require different parts and different designs. Cost can equate to that.
Also please people, get over the fact that others would like to spend more money than you on something. Its life, and it does happen. People are always so upset to see someone spent more money on an amp than what they have in their system. Is that bad to do, no, its what they wanted to spend their money on, yet everyone has to say they were dumb, or that their Emo amp is just as good as that Krell. Also think about what your hooking up to the whole thing, and what your usage is.
Ever think that HT people may like the amp because they are more focused on something else rather than doing really critical listening that they would normally in 2 channel? Emo is a entry level amp, and is targeted at that price point. There is always room for growth and expansion. Sure you might be happy with what you have, but others may not be and want to try different things. The attitude around here is that your dumb if you do want anything besides emo, as with post like this and people saying there is no reason to spend more, Emo is great.
Regardless, if someone is truly interested in why higher cost, please also speak to the manf. of the amp or you could even take a tour of a McIntosh facility and see for yourself. Thats right here in the US, but I'm sure that people here would rather say someone is dumb for buying it rather than try to understand what goes into making their amps.
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kse
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Post by kse on Sept 5, 2010 10:08:59 GMT -5
^^^^^^^^^^^ I love it.
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Chris
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Post by Chris on Sept 5, 2010 11:06:58 GMT -5
wow...you know this forum is funny. You have the people that swear by these amps and then anyone who says otherwise or has a problem is "bashing" emo, yet people constantly will say that there is no point in buying a higher end amp, or that its just "marketing" that makes their prices higher ect. Its getting old and even though your not coming out and saying "well Krell is expensive and is just a name" its still bashing it and its getting annoying. There is more that goes into making an amp than just parts and selling it. You also have research, the type of amp your making, manf. cost, storage cost ect ect. And I'm sorry you would be hardpress to find the same type of caps, power supplies ect that are in a Krell than you would find in an Emo amp. If you don't believe me take them to a repair shop and have them dissect both amps and let you know. There is a lower cost on emo products for a reason, not everything is going to be "high quality" Also when comparing higher end amps you are also comparing different kind of amps as well. Krell is normally a class A that can easily double down in power all the way to 1 ohm stable. Emo on most of their amps, save maybe their mono block can not do this. They are also a class A/B and is a different design and require different parts and different designs. Cost can equate to that. Also please people, get over the fact that others would like to spend more money than you on something. Its life, and it does happen. People are always so upset to see someone spent more money on an amp than what they have in their system. Is that bad to do, no, its what they wanted to spend their money on, yet everyone has to say they were dumb, or that their Emo amp is just as good as that Krell. Also think about what your hooking up to the whole thing, and what your usage is. Ever think that HT people may like the amp because they are more focused on something else rather than doing really critical listening that they would normally in 2 channel? Emo is a entry level amp, and is targeted at that price point. There is always room for growth and expansion. Sure you might be happy with what you have, but others may not be and want to try different things. The attitude around here is that your dumb if you do want anything besides emo, as with post like this and people saying there is no reason to spend more, Emo is great. Regardless, if someone is truly interested in why higher cost, please also speak to the manf. of the amp or you could even take a tour of a McIntosh facility and see for yourself. Thats right here in the US, but I'm sure that people here would rather say someone is dumb for buying it rather than try to understand what goes into making their amps. Interesting diatribe. While some of your points have merit and the folks at Emotiva would probably agree I think the general tenor of your points is that the more bucks you pay the better the product period. This where I strongly disagree. Let's take one of your points about Krell being stable down to 1 ohm. I happen to own one of the type of speakers that actually goes to 1 ohm at 20khz - Martin Logan Vantage ESL. Electrostatic speakers tend to be difficult loads for amplifiers to drive. I have a test music track that I use to test this phenomenon. I own a "high-end" amp made by a high-end company that is two channel only and cost me about $1,000. When I play my test track at a modest volume (say 80 db) and I reach a certain point this so called high-end just shut down! It goes into protect mode because of the low impedence load produced by this speaker combination. Otherwise this high-end amp is just peachy. I then acquired an Emotiva amp XPA-5 amp that has five channels and costs about $700. I play my torture track again and the XPA-5 doesn't bat an eyelash. Round one to the XPA-5! You mention parts quality. It would not surprise me that some parts in the Emotiva amps are not so called state of the art of audiophile approved. I would bet though that the parts that matter the most to actual sound and performance of the amp are very near or at top tier. I personally can live without mil-spec this and that and toggle switches milled from solid bricks of tibeten bell remnants or whatever is the flavor of the month. I think the genius of the Emotiva amps is their successful balancing of what parts do make a true difference in the end performance of the product. I find this a bit more impressive than just throwing boatloads of money at a problem regardless of the law of diminishing returns. You mention visiting high-end manufacturers. Conrad Johnson is near where I live. I've spent some time talking with Lew Johnson. Terribly nice guy. First rate products. Pretty expensive but not at the outrageous level. Certified high-end. I have been an audiophile hobbyist since my teens. I am now 50. I have built Hafler amps and PS Audio preamps. While they were kits and I was simply doing point to point soldering, I still had to comprehend the basics of what I was doing. These home built kits worked the first time I turned them on and still run well decades later! I believe in the law of diminishing returns in this audio hobby. Once a certain performance threshold is reached cost wise, throwing additional dollars at the problem will make very little difference in further performance improvements. People spend money on all sorts of seeming outrageous things for outrageous sums of money. The watch market is one example. People will spend thousands of dollars on a timepiece (high-end term!) with the same functionality of $5 watch. I get it that the expensive watch is jewelry but the core functionality is no different between the two and the $5 watch is probably more accurate (digital) but who is counting! I believe much of what goes for high-end audio is infected by Ego and one-up-manship. There are legitimate products that are real breakthrough designs and are quite dear in price. There are also revolutionary products that cost very little and deliver amazing performance. Pick you poison but be aware of the heavy psychological manipulation that goes on as well. -CB
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Post by kodgman on Sept 5, 2010 11:19:07 GMT -5
True internet direct & over seas assemble are the two biggest cost saving-that's a no-brainer. (Honestly if Emotiva was not priced so well - I would pay more to by American)
What we don't see is very high end internal capacitors & such- they do make a difference (how big?), but it's a matter of personal taste-if you what Mundorf capacitors, ect. your going to pay more.
I use Emotiva amps & have been told buy other self proclaimed audiophiles that Emotiva is a cheap amp & not up to standard of my other gear. I look at the facts - specs, power handling, ect. & it's hard to agrue that they are not on par with amps costing much more $$!
I think in a blind test "snobby audiophiles" would be hard pressed to pick out difference in sound quality between Emotiva & much more expensive brands.
With that said a few thing that I really wish Emotiva would address is the very CHEAP BINDING POST & CHEAP XLR INPUTS both are really are poor quality period!
On a purly cosmetic front I would like to see needle meters as opposed to the out-dated blue dots! I think if you added McIntosh like meters they amps would look 100% better & appeal to more consumers (even the snubby people) I would gladly pay an extra $100 to have have those 3 things improved - Emotiva would still be an excellent bargain.
Add those things & Emotiva would get a a solid A. IMO Emotiva is a solid C+/B-.
Kodg:)
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Post by johndavidson on Sept 5, 2010 11:35:50 GMT -5
wow...you know this forum is funny. You have the people that swear by these amps and then anyone who says otherwise or has a problem is "bashing" emo, yet people constantly will say that there is no point in buying a higher end amp, or that its just "marketing" that makes their prices higher ect. Its getting old and even though your not coming out and saying "well Krell is expensive and is just a name" its still bashing it and its getting annoying. There is more that goes into making an amp than just parts and selling it. You also have research, the type of amp your making, manf. cost, storage cost ect ect. And I'm sorry you would be hardpress to find the same type of caps, power supplies ect that are in a Krell than you would find in an Emo amp. If you don't believe me take them to a repair shop and have them dissect both amps and let you know. There is a lower cost on emo products for a reason, not everything is going to be "high quality" Also when comparing higher end amps you are also comparing different kind of amps as well. Krell is normally a class A that can easily double down in power all the way to 1 ohm stable. Emo on most of their amps, save maybe their mono block can not do this. They are also a class A/B and is a different design and require different parts and different designs. Cost can equate to that. Also please people, get over the fact that others would like to spend more money than you on something. Its life, and it does happen. People are always so upset to see someone spent more money on an amp than what they have in their system. Is that bad to do, no, its what they wanted to spend their money on, yet everyone has to say they were dumb, or that their Emo amp is just as good as that Krell. Also think about what your hooking up to the whole thing, and what your usage is. Ever think that HT people may like the amp because they are more focused on something else rather than doing really critical listening that they would normally in 2 channel? Emo is a entry level amp, and is targeted at that price point. There is always room for growth and expansion. Sure you might be happy with what you have, but others may not be and want to try different things. The attitude around here is that your dumb if you do want anything besides emo, as with post like this and people saying there is no reason to spend more, Emo is great. Regardless, if someone is truly interested in why higher cost, please also speak to the manf. of the amp or you could even take a tour of a McIntosh facility and see for yourself. Thats right here in the US, but I'm sure that people here would rather say someone is dumb for buying it rather than try to understand what goes into making their amps. Interesting diatribe. While some of your points have merit and the folks at Emotiva would probably agree I think the general tenor of your points is that the more bucks you pay the better the product period. This where I strongly disagree. Let's take one of your points about Krell being stable down to 1 ohm. I happen to own one of the type of speakers that actually goes to 1 ohm at 20khz - Martin Logan Vantage ESL. Electrostatic speakers tend to be difficult loads for amplifiers to drive. I have a test music track that I use to test this phenomenon. I own a "high-end" amp made by a high-end company that is two channel only and cost me about $1,000. When I play my test track at a modest volume (say 80 db) and I reach a certain point this so called high-end just shut down! It goes into protect mode because of the low impedence load produced by this speaker combination. Otherwise this high-end amp is just peachy. I then acquired an Emotiva amp XPA-5 amp that has five channels and costs about $700. I play my torture track again and the XPA-5 doesn't bat an eyelash. Round one to the XPA-5! You mention parts quality. It would not surprise me that some parts in the Emotiva amps are not so called state of the art of audiophile approved. I would bet though that the parts that matter the most to actual sound and performance of the amp are very near or at top tier. I personally can live without mil-spec this and that and toggle switches milled from solid bricks of tibeten bell remnants or whatever is the flavor of the month. I think the genius of the Emotiva amps is their successful balancing of what parts do make a true difference in the end performance of the product. I find this a bit more impressive than just throwing boatloads of money at a problem regardless of the law of diminishing returns. You mention visiting high-end manufacturers. Conrad Johnson is near where I live. I've spent some time talking with Lew Johnson. Terribly nice guy. First rate products. Pretty expensive but not at the outrageous level. Certified high-end. I have been an audiophile hobbyist since my teens. I am now 50. I have built Hafler amps and PS Audio preamps. While they were kits and I was simply doing point to point soldering, I still had to comprehend the basics of what I was doing. These home built kits worked the first time I turned them on and still run well decades later! I believe in the law of diminishing returns in this audio hobby. Once a certain performance threshold is reached cost wise, throwing additional dollars at the problem will make very little difference in further performance improvements. People spend money on all sorts of seeming outrageous things for outrageous sums of money. The watch market is one example. People will spend thousands of dollars on a timepiece (high-end term!) with the same functionality of $5 watch. I get it that the expensive watch is jewelry but the core functionality is no different between the two and the $5 watch is probably more accurate (digital) but who is counting! I believe much of what goes for high-end audio is infected by Ego and one-up-manship. There are legitimate products that are real breakthrough designs and are quite dear in price. There are also revolutionary products that cost very little and deliver amazing performance. Pick you poison but be aware of the heavy psychological manipulation that goes on as well. -CB I think both of you make good valid points. I also think there are exceptions to all. In the end a person must feel good about their purchase. I believe Emotiva makes a good quality amp that rides close to the threshold of diminishing returns that has been mentioned. In most home systems spending more will get you very little additional SQ if any IMHO. However if someone choses to spend more they should not get called out and bashed over the head. I do believe there are valid reasons to spend more if one choses to do so. Several have posted very good reasons as to why one amp might cost more than another.
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RPA-1 man
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Post by RPA-1 man on Sept 5, 2010 12:17:29 GMT -5
Many of us like our Emo gear and the majority of us have no problem if others don't like Emotiva gear. There are a few here that are fanatical and that's ok as well. There are members here who have compared Emo to more expensive gear and have stated that there is a difference in sound and build quality but not enough to justify the huge price differences. There is nothing wrong with that either. It all comes down to what we are looking to get out of our systems.
It is a 2 way street. There are many who don't like Emotiva just because of the price point. Making dumb statements like "It's entry level gear" based on the price. If you take it to a repair shop how the heck can they tell by looking at the components if it's lower quality. Because a capacitor is yellow instead of brown makes it junk? Because it doesn't say ELNA or NICHICON on the casing makes it junk? My RPA-1 has Toshiba transistors in it. Is it junk because they're not Motorola? I don't think so. If Emotiva was sold at boutique audio stores there would be a lot less crapping on it because you can bet your (insert word of choice here) it would cost a lot more than it does. Excuse me but entry level gear is crap you get at Best Buy and other stores of the like.
I enjoy my Emotiva gear but don't push it on people. I just get sick of threads where people say it's entry level or crap based on price or supposed poor component quality.
Carry on with you unjustified statements. I'm going to listen to some tunes on my Emotiva, yes I said Emotiva, gear. By the way I also enjoy listening to music on my other non Emotiva gear.
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Chris
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Post by Chris on Sept 5, 2010 18:02:18 GMT -5
I think it would be very useful for those interested in the topics raised in this thread to listen/watch the Home Theater Geeks podcast that featured an interview with the former "enfant terrible" of amplifier design - Bob Carver. twit.tv/htg29I encourage one to watch if possible because Carver shows off some interesting items in his lab. The interview also covers the infamous amp challenge where Carver successfully emulated the sound of an existing high-end amplifier with his own amp using null difference testing. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_CarverBob Carver is truly one who thinks outside the box and I can't recommend this podcast enough. As I reflect on this topic more, I think that many high-end amplifiers are a result of "tuning" and voicing by their designers and reflects their personal biases and proclivities. At this level, using terms like best, better, worse, state of the art, etc. are fairly meaningless adjectives that again reflect these biases. Just my personal bias! ;-) -CB
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