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Post by thepcguy on Oct 29, 2010 19:35:58 GMT -5
That audio critic article actually put me off testing for myself for a while. Life is busy, why waste time researching something that an article has harshly discredited when the author obviously writes well and with authority and who seems to have at least some truth and sense? Thankfully I was curious enough to discover for myself. With cables its easy really. Just show up at a fancy hifi showroom to hear their system with and without your own cheap as chips cable. If you can't hear a difference you are either truely blessed or in denial (yes, I believe even a partially deaf person can easily appreciate the difference). If you need a hand close your eyes, listen to 1 aspect at a time: e.g. the bass or the detail in the voice, etc. Soundstage depth and width is also easy to appreciate. While I will probably not change the wiring in my electronics the interconnects and spkr cable are vastly greater in material volume so isn't it 'reasonable' to assume they can affect the sound? I have a 'high end' cable and one which is 'low end' (about $300 per metre), the difference is remarkable between them and is easily spotted on a blind test.Amps do sound different. While I might not have been able to find 2 amps of differing price with identical specs (doesn't it strike you as odd that a cheap amp would have the same specs as an expensive one??), amps do sound very different even within the same price range. And of course a 128kps MP3 sounds very different to a SACD, and a PC speaker sounds different to a floorstander. But to say that everything else approximates to no difference is ridiculous IMHO. Of course there is snake oil and the law of diminishing returns, but investigate for yourself and you won't go wrong and may discover a very fascinating hobby. Please DON'T take my word for it ;D ;D Would you mind telling us how you conducted your BLIND TESTING?
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jimi
Minor Hero
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Post by jimi on Oct 29, 2010 20:54:39 GMT -5
its quite easy. Just get a friend to stick whatever cable in and swap a few times in the same system, then tell them which is which. All it takes is the will power not to peek. If testing between more expensive cables then I wouldn't dare say, I'm no expert. But between a cheap and an expensive one (assuming the expensive one is a bona fide decent cable) then its not hard. Must be objective about this sort of thing, spend money on stuff which is worth the difference. An expensive cable or tweak is not going to transform a low end system to a high end- in fact sometimes it can make it sound worse by emphasising all the faults. As I say, don't get bogged down on the details- go and try it only takes a short while to hear for yourself At the end of the day, music is about how it sounds to you. Though I'm a big fan of objective measurement but if it measured well and sounded bad then I still wouldn't go for something for obvious reasons. It looks like there has been some in roads into objective measurements of cables recently : blog.stereophile.com/rmaf2010/nordost_and_vertex_measurements/
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Post by thepcguy on Oct 29, 2010 20:57:43 GMT -5
its quite easy. Just get a friend to stick whatever cable in and swap a few times in the same system, then tell them which is which. All it takes is the will power not to peek. If testing between more expensive cables then I wouldn't dare say, I'm no expert. But between a cheap and an expensive one (assuming the expensive one is a bona fide decent cable) then its not hard. Must be objective about this sort of thing, spend money on stuff which is worth the difference. An expensive cable or tweak is not going to transform a low end system to a high end- in fact sometimes it can make it sound worse by emphasising all the faults. As I say, don't get bogged down on the details- go and try it only takes a short while to hear for yourself At the end of the day, music is about how it sounds to you. Though I'm a big fan of objective measurement but if it measured well and sounded bad then I still wouldn't go for something for obvious reasons. It looks like there has been some in roads into objective measurements of cables recently : blog.stereophile.com/rmaf2010/nordost_and_vertex_measurements/Were you able to identify 100%? If not what's your percentage?
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Post by rockguitar on Oct 29, 2010 21:36:06 GMT -5
So at the risk of being/going off topic here....anyone believe this (the red arrow point)? I have heard a LARGE difference between amplifiers (EMO vs. B&K) in the same room, same speakers, same processor, same recordings, etc. etc. If it wasn't the amps making the difference what was it? I certainly don't believe this. I've probably had 10 or more different solid state amps that I've tried in my system. They don't all sound the same, though some sound more similar than others. The thing is that the amps won't even measure exactly the same, even if they use all they measure flat frequency response for matching purposes. To elaborate, they use many different criteria to measure amps, not just frequency response, like the harmonic distortion, the IM distortion, etc. These other measureables are going to be different and you may be able to hear the difference if you listen over an extended amount of time. Amp class (class A, B, AB, H, D, G) as well, they all have a slightly different sound. To go back to the original posters question about modding their amps. On diyaudio.com, those guys tweak and discuss building amps like crazy. Many different components are characterized as having a different sound, e.g. carbon resistors sound different from metal film resistors. Comparing two different resistors of the same resistance but of different types, they are going to measure the same resistence, but they are not going to be identical in every other measureable quantity. Those tweakers will prefer one to the other. That being said, I will say that the differences in amps is far less than in speakers. The price for good performing amps is amazingly cheap nowadays compared to the days of yore.
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jimi
Minor Hero
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Post by jimi on Oct 30, 2010 6:48:34 GMT -5
its quite easy. Just get a friend to stick whatever cable in and swap a few times in the same system, then tell them which is which. All it takes is the will power not to peek. If testing between more expensive cables then I wouldn't dare say, I'm no expert. But between a cheap and an expensive one (assuming the expensive one is a bona fide decent cable) then its not hard. Must be objective about this sort of thing, spend money on stuff which is worth the difference. An expensive cable or tweak is not going to transform a low end system to a high end- in fact sometimes it can make it sound worse by emphasising all the faults. As I say, don't get bogged down on the details- go and try it only takes a short while to hear for yourself At the end of the day, music is about how it sounds to you. Though I'm a big fan of objective measurement but if it measured well and sounded bad then I still wouldn't go for something for obvious reasons. It looks like there has been some in roads into objective measurements of cables recently : blog.stereophile.com/rmaf2010/nordost_and_vertex_measurements/Were you able to identify 100%? If not what's your percentage? Sorry for belabouring the point a bit but ask yourself: Why would anyone want to spend money on something they can only appreciate x% of the time? Have to be certain of a definite improvement, otherwise why bother?! Please share your experience, dude..
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Post by johndavidson on Oct 30, 2010 7:12:23 GMT -5
So at the risk of being/going off topic here....anyone believe this (the red arrow point)? I have heard a LARGE difference between amplifiers (EMO vs. B&K) in the same room, same speakers, same processor, same recordings, etc. etc. If it wasn't the amps making the difference what was it? I certainly don't believe this. I've probably had 10 or more different solid state amps that I've tried in my system. They don't all sound the same, though some sound more similar than others. The thing is that the amps won't even measure exactly the same, even if they use all they measure flat frequency response for matching purposes. To elaborate, they use many different criteria to measure amps, not just frequency response, like the harmonic distortion, the IM distortion, etc. These other measureables are going to be different and you may be able to hear the difference if you listen over an extended amount of time. Amp class (class A, B, AB, H, D, G) as well, they all have a slightly different sound. To go back to the original posters question about modding their amps. On diyaudio.com, those guys tweak and discuss building amps like crazy. Many different components are characterized as having a different sound, e.g. carbon resistors sound different from metal film resistors. Comparing two different resistors of the same resistance but of different types, they are going to measure the same resistence, but they are not going to be identical in every other measureable quantity. Those tweakers will prefer one to the other. That being said, I will say that the differences in amps is far less than in speakers. The price for good performing amps is amazingly cheap nowadays compared to the days of yore. I have to ask how would the 2 resistors in you example mearsure differently?
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Post by rockguitar on Oct 30, 2010 7:49:59 GMT -5
I haven't done the measurements myself or looked into it in any great detail. I would have to think in electrical terms, that they may have a slightly different transient response to a signal or slightly different "distortion" characteristics. Carbon does not have an induced magnetic field, but some metals do, so certain metal film resistors have a small induced magnetic field or inductance. These differences are in all likelihood small but should be measurable with equipment of sufficient sensitivity. Carbon composite resistors are also reputed to be noisy in certain applications, so that should be measureable. Also the sensitivity of certain components to EMI/RFI may also be audible and measurable. Lastly, the differences may also be mechanical in nature in that due to the different construction techniques their different responses to acoustic vibrations may cause them to vibrate and induce a slightly different output.
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Post by johndavidson on Oct 30, 2010 10:13:24 GMT -5
I haven't done the measurements myself or looked into it in any great detail. I would have to think in electrical terms, that they may have a slightly different transient response to a signal or slightly different "distortion" characteristics. Carbon does not have an induced magnetic field, but some metals do, so certain metal film resistors have a small induced magnetic field or inductance. These differences are in all likelihood small but should be measurable with equipment of sufficient sensitivity. Carbon composite resistors are also reputed to be noisy in certain applications, so that should be measureable. Also the sensitivity of certain components to EMI/RFI may also be audible and measurable. Lastly, the differences may also be mechanical in nature in that due to the different construction techniques their different responses to acoustic vibrations may cause them to vibrate and induce a slightly different output. Within the audio range none of the properties you comment on would be measurably different. Different resistor types are used based on wattage dissipation, frequency, circuit board mounting and density, thermal stability and manufacturing ease. Other than some wire wound types, resistor will not display any reactive characteristics until well above the audio range. Transients are a results of these reactive characteristic as a purely resistive element does not display any transient delays. Also, RF interference requires a high impedance circuits not really found in audio amplifiers. The highest impedance circuit in a amp is the input circuit which usually run in the 50k ohm range. That long cable that is suppling the source signal is by fay more likely to induce RF noise in your system that a 7mm long resistor and it is not usually a problem. You should try to measure these different types of resistors and let us know what you find. Just playing around on the bench I have never been able to measure any difference until getting close to the mega hertz range.
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Post by monkumonku on Oct 30, 2010 10:26:50 GMT -5
Were you able to identify 100%? If not what's your percentage? Sorry for belabouring the point a bit but ask yourself: Why would anyone want to spend money on something they can only appreciate x% of the time? Have to be certain of a definite improvement, otherwise why bother?! Please share your experience, dude.. The thing is there are so many other factors influencing sound that one component might sound better than another on certain recordings, but vice versa on other recordings (such as how for example there is no "best" speaker or headphone because of this plus personal preference, etc.). That said, I agree with the principle of your argument - for the same recording, a person should be able to detect the difference in cables or equipment 100% of the time and easily discern the difference. Otherwise like you said, what is the point of spending money on something you can only appreciate x% of the time?
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jimi
Minor Hero
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Post by jimi on Oct 30, 2010 12:03:57 GMT -5
The thing is there are so many other factors influencing sound that one component might sound better than another on certain recordings, but vice versa on other recordings (such as how for example there is no "best" speaker or headphone because of this plus personal preference, etc.). That said, I agree with the principle of your argument - for the same recording, a person should be able to detect the difference in cables or equipment 100% of the time and easily discern the difference. Otherwise like you said, what is the point of spending money on something you can only appreciate x% of the time? I'm not quite sure what you mean by your first paragraph. Talking in theory and generalising is difficult without a host of caveats. I think I kinda agree with you. Some kind of balance is important where you draw that particular line is personal preference/ budget Better cables are more revealing so if your source is not good then its faults will also be more evident despite the other benefits to the sound. Once the 'max' has been reached with a system its important to address any 'irritants' e.g. a sharp treble which may be a consequence of revealing too much. Certainly a well setup cheaper system can sound nicer than a poorly setup or matched high end system. That's why I'm often quite happy with my Shure IEMs playing AIFF on my iPhone when I'm out and about as a lightweight portable set. It may not be the last thing in hifi, but it's very enjoyable without any jarring faults. Personal factors are of course important but its all mixed in with other variables such as the recording, room acoustics, etc. Who doesn't like more detail, wider and deeper soundstage, well projected voices, luscious highs and deep bass, etc? I find that decent 'high-end' setups tend to share these (and more) same attributes and blur the differences found in lower end systems e.g. between tubes and solid state. Don't get me wrong, my setup is very modest compared to most people's and I'm still very much a newbie. I haven't even begun to explore stuff like power cords for example (really don't understand how they can possibly make much difference- but its going to be fun testing). Now that I've quite happily derailed my own thread, I can guess that many haven't modded their Emos because of warranty worries and because they feel it will not make much difference. Though rockguitar may not have stated the best example (I'm no electronics guy), opamps and capacitors, etc are supposed to have all their own sound characteristics and this is well known in the diy world. I wish I knew more about this stuff as I would have started swapping bits out of my XPA1s already- I like what I have but I just want a little more refinement and, well, just more ;D
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Post by roflcatdown on Oct 30, 2010 14:46:45 GMT -5
its quite easy. Just get a friend to stick whatever cable in and swap a few times in the same system, then tell them which is which. All it takes is the will power not to peek. If testing between more expensive cables then I wouldn't dare say, I'm no expert. But between a cheap and an expensive one (assuming the expensive one is a bona fide decent cable) then its not hard. Must be objective about this sort of thing, spend money on stuff which is worth the difference. An expensive cable or tweak is not going to transform a low end system to a high end- in fact sometimes it can make it sound worse by emphasising all the faults. As I say, don't get bogged down on the details- go and try it only takes a short while to hear for yourself At the end of the day, music is about how it sounds to you. Though I'm a big fan of objective measurement but if it measured well and sounded bad then I still wouldn't go for something for obvious reasons. It looks like there has been some in roads into objective measurements of cables recently : blog.stereophile.com/rmaf2010/nordost_and_vertex_measurements/It's quite easy eh? How many trials were used, over how long of a time period. What was used to determine the randomness of which cable was inserted which time? Was the same segment of audio track used repeatedly for each test? Blind testing isn't actually as easy as you claim it is. Doing a simple one-off test to see if you can tell a difference is crap. The article you're referencing provides no details of their methodology, the data collected, who they had review it from an outside perspective, what device the power cord was replaced on, what the original gauge of the cable was vs the audiophile cable, cable lengths used, etc... Quoting a "scientific" study from someone who wants to sell you something isn't a good way to convince people.
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Post by rockguitar on Oct 30, 2010 21:20:38 GMT -5
I haven't done the measurements myself or looked into it in any great detail. I would have to think in electrical terms, that they may have a slightly different transient response to a signal or slightly different "distortion" characteristics. Carbon does not have an induced magnetic field, but some metals do, so certain metal film resistors have a small induced magnetic field or inductance. These differences are in all likelihood small but should be measurable with equipment of sufficient sensitivity. Carbon composite resistors are also reputed to be noisy in certain applications, so that should be measureable. Also the sensitivity of certain components to EMI/RFI may also be audible and measurable. Lastly, the differences may also be mechanical in nature in that due to the different construction techniques their different responses to acoustic vibrations may cause them to vibrate and induce a slightly different output. Within the audio range none of the properties you comment on would be measurably different. Different resistor types are used based on wattage dissipation, frequency, circuit board mounting and density, thermal stability and manufacturing ease. Other than some wire wound types, resistor will not display any reactive characteristics until well above the audio range. Transients are a results of these reactive characteristic as a purely resistive element does not display any transient delays. Also, RF interference requires a high impedance circuits not really found in audio amplifiers. The highest impedance circuit in a amp is the input circuit which usually run in the 50k ohm range. That long cable that is suppling the source signal is by fay more likely to induce RF noise in your system that a 7mm long resistor and it is not usually a problem. You should try to measure these different types of resistors and let us know what you find. Just playing around on the bench I have never been able to measure any difference until getting close to the mega hertz range. Your experiments on the bench are interesting. However, the noise of carbon composite resistors and and the self inductance of some metal film resistors resistors is quite well known. See e.g. www.aikenamps.com/ResistorNoise.htmor google "Thorsten" and "carbon composite resistors" Things like noise and the induced inductance of a metal film resistor should be measureable. I'm not saying that these are always going to be the most significant variables, but they could certainly play a role in determining what makes something sound better or different. My point was that parts choices can matter, even in something as simple as a resistor.
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Post by johndavidson on Oct 31, 2010 8:57:20 GMT -5
Within the audio range none of the properties you comment on would be measurably different. Different resistor types are used based on wattage dissipation, frequency, circuit board mounting and density, thermal stability and manufacturing ease. Other than some wire wound types, resistor will not display any reactive characteristics until well above the audio range. Transients are a results of these reactive characteristic as a purely resistive element does not display any transient delays. Also, RF interference requires a high impedance circuits not really found in audio amplifiers. The highest impedance circuit in a amp is the input circuit which usually run in the 50k ohm range. That long cable that is suppling the source signal is by fay more likely to induce RF noise in your system that a 7mm long resistor and it is not usually a problem. You should try to measure these different types of resistors and let us know what you find. Just playing around on the bench I have never been able to measure any difference until getting close to the mega hertz range. Your experiments on the bench are interesting. However, the noise of carbon composite resistors and and the self inductance of some metal film resistors resistors is quite well known. See e.g. www.aikenamps.com/ResistorNoise.htmor google "Thorsten" and "carbon composite resistors" Things like noise and the induced inductance of a metal film resistor should be measureable. I'm not saying that these are always going to be the most significant variables, but they could certainly play a role in determining what makes something sound better or different. My point was that parts choices can matter, even in something as simple as a resistor. I think the article proves my point. With the Boltzmann constant being .0000000000000000000000138 and the formula being frequency dependent you will have to get a good bit higher than 20K on the average home audio amp that has a gain of about 30, an input impedance of 50K, and puts out full power with a1v to 1.5v of input signal. Today the noise floor of most amps is not audible so what would you gain and is it measurable within the operational bandwidth for the amp. In high frequency low noise communication amps and high speed computer circuits I agree that resistors noise would need to be considered. However Emotiva claims to use 1% metal film resistors. What resistor could you use that would allow you to measure lower noise at the frequencies the amp would see? I must say that our conversation has sparked my curiosity. I will try to see if I can find any measurable noise within the audio frequency range using different types of resistors. Over the years I have never noticed any difference until I got to fairly high frequencies but I was not really on the look out for them either. Also the point of this article is to sale you on Aiken amps and he is showing you extremes that he later acknowledges in the article don't really apply. I don't typically see 1M resistors in amplifier circuits. Input circuits on amps tend to be differential pairs that act to reduce common mode noise so as not to be amplified.
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jimi
Minor Hero
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Post by jimi on Oct 31, 2010 11:31:50 GMT -5
its quite easy. Just get a friend to stick whatever cable in and swap a few times in the same system, then tell them which is which. All it takes is the will power not to peek. If testing between more expensive cables then I wouldn't dare say, I'm no expert. But between a cheap and an expensive one (assuming the expensive one is a bona fide decent cable) then its not hard. Must be objective about this sort of thing, spend money on stuff which is worth the difference. An expensive cable or tweak is not going to transform a low end system to a high end- in fact sometimes it can make it sound worse by emphasising all the faults. As I say, don't get bogged down on the details- go and try it only takes a short while to hear for yourself At the end of the day, music is about how it sounds to you. Though I'm a big fan of objective measurement but if it measured well and sounded bad then I still wouldn't go for something for obvious reasons. It looks like there has been some in roads into objective measurements of cables recently : blog.stereophile.com/rmaf2010/nordost_and_vertex_measurements/It's quite easy eh? How many trials were used, over how long of a time period. What was used to determine the randomness of which cable was inserted which time? Was the same segment of audio track used repeatedly for each test? Blind testing isn't actually as easy as you claim it is. Doing a simple one-off test to see if you can tell a difference is crap. The article you're referencing provides no details of their methodology, the data collected, who they had review it from an outside perspective, what device the power cord was replaced on, what the original gauge of the cable was vs the audiophile cable, cable lengths used, etc... Quoting a "scientific" study from someone who wants to sell you something isn't a good way to convince people. I can’t help but feel that you did not properly read and understand my post that you quoted Listening to hifi is for FUN, the mention of a blind test was for fun and for people who may not have considered doing a cable test before in order to try it out. IMHO testing between a cheap and a 'decent' high end cable is like a tasting session with chalk and cheese. Once your ears/ tastebuds can appreciate the difference then how many times do you think you need to AB or blind test is up to you. Of course tasting between a Colston Basset and a Cashel Blue may need to be a blind test for some too (not for this cheese addict ). These days a blind test is only needed for stuff which is quite similar (or to prove a point) so I don't do it that often- I'm looking for decent easily perceptible improvements not a subtle change. After all when I listen to music I don’t get enjoyment by constantly listening to it with various cables I have around, I just want to be lost in the music and enjoying the apparent realism of the soundstage and the feeling ‘I’m there’ experience (however distorted it may be after the recording studio has finished with it). Having my own intimate concert with Emi Fujita or Eva Cassidy is addictive. I feel that you are dying to pick apart my methods for a blind test but its not relevant, I hope you can appreciate what I am trying to say. For what its worth my work involves blind/ double blind testing for drugs and medical treatments, although you may be more of an expert but please forgive me if I feel I have a little familiarity in this area too. If you are genuinely open to it just go and try- its a bit of fun I’m not trying to force you or convince you of anything just asking people to try it for themselves. Have a look at my posts in this thread, I like to have objective measured confirmation for what I hear too but its your ears that have to be trained to listen for the difference but that’s the fun of the hobby, eh? The quote was to inform that some people are trying to measure what has been previously immeasurable, its not meant to be a scientific paper and you are not meant to be ‘convinced by it’. Have you actually read the article, the bit nearer the end? The guy mentions that what they did should never replace critical listening. However you are quite right that it may be subject to bias due to a vested interest but hey it’s a new area, let’s not criticise it before we know the details- keeping an open mind doesn’t hurt. Why not share with us what you have personally found? Perhaps your experience has been quite different. With your meticulous nature, I’m sure it will be interesting and informative.
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