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Post by EMO_tional on Nov 19, 2010 20:38:58 GMT -5
Greetings. I'm an Emotiva Newbie.
After playing around with a few mid-fi tube integrated amps, I decided that I needed the punch and clarity of SS to help bring my Rock/Metal tastes to a new level.
As it happens, I had in my basement an old SAE 2200 Power-Amp and an SAE 3000 pre-amp. I've been enjoying this combo for awhile, however the pre-amp is on it's last legs, from a reliability standpoint.
Being a vinyl lover, I thought the USP-1 pre would fill in for the SAE nicely, so as we speak, one is on it's way to me right now.
Now my question is the usual, which Emotiva amp should I get to go with it.
Currently my SAE 2200 works well, it's 100WPC and sounds good, however it IS old, and a bit noisy.
I'm thinking of the UPA-2 as I don't need more power than I've already got really, my speakers are JBL ES80s at around 91/dB
Or perhaps I should spring for the UPA-1 monoblocks.
OR... do I invest in refurbishing and re-capping the SAE.
SAE was considered fairly good back in the day, would Emotiva be better?!?
Any thoughts would be appreciated.
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Post by strindl on Nov 19, 2010 21:09:49 GMT -5
It would probably cost you as much or more to have the 2200 restored than it would to buy a new UPA-2. The UPA-2 also has parts...such as output transistors, of a quality that simply was not available when the 2200 was built.
Plus...you'd have a 5 year warranty on the UPA-2.
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Pauly
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Post by Pauly on Nov 19, 2010 22:33:30 GMT -5
If you don't mind spending the extra cash, the monoblocks would certainly give you a good jump in sound quality over the UPA-2. I really do think they are the biggest bang for the buck amps out there. I've heard them in my system, and they were better than the Parasound Halo A23 I was running at the time, and pretty much on par with the A21.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2010 23:04:52 GMT -5
The UPA-2 should be a significant audible improvement over your SAE's. However, I would seriously consider going with the two UPA-1's if you can afford it (or even the XPA-2). The ES80's are tested not as efficient as the 91dB spec would imply, although they definitely should be considered 4 ohm impedance. S&V Magazine tested them at only 87dB's sensitivity and 2.8 ohms minimum and 4 ohms nominal. A speaker with 87dB sensitivity requires more than double the power of a speaker with a 91dB sensitivity. For a tower, the ES80's are below average in sensitivity. The low bass limit was a good 40Hz but that was at 10% distortion and only 84dB's in loudness. You can definitely use lots of power.
There will be those who say that the 350 watts versus 185 watts into 4 ohms of the UPA-1's versus the UPA-2 is only about 3dB's and not a big improvement. I feel it is simply more headroom which can be great especially if you crank it up from time to time for your stated hard rock/power metal taste. Also the ES80 with the added super tweeter tends to be on the bright side. I think you will now hear that slight tendency toward brightness more defined than you did with the SAE amp. Making sure the amp gets nowhere near clipping on instantaneous peaks will keep it as clean and non-bright/edgy sounding as possible.
Just one parenthetical comment here. I am a fan of defined, low distortion and loud bass when the source allows. This might not always be the case with vinyl. If you do go in the future to CD sources you might consider a high quality powered sub to compliment the low end of the ES80's. Just some food for thought.
Welcome to the Emotiva Lounge! ;D
from the Sound & Vision Test Bench By Tom Nousaine
Frequency response (at 2 meters) • front left/right 46 Hz to 15 kHz ±7.6 dB
Sensitivity (SPL at 1 meter with 2.8 volts of pink-noise input) front left/right 87 dB
Impedance (minimum/nominal) front left/right 2.8/4 ohms
Bass limits (lowest frequency and maximum SPL with limit of 10% distortion at 2 meters in a large room) front left/right 40 Hz at 84 dB
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Post by EMO_tional on Nov 20, 2010 5:31:51 GMT -5
Thanks for your input, that's quite alot to mull over. Are you saying that even though JBL rates the ES80s at 8 ohms, they are happier running at 4 ohms?!? These are not my ideal speakers, but I find they have a sweet spot in the mid-range that brings out guitars nicely. I do agree that they can get harsh at louder volumes with bright gear. I have a BSR EQ that I've used to cut a little bit at 16k I also use it to help tone down some of the mid-bass muddiness my room suffers from. These speakers did NOT like my 50wpc Tube integrated at all..... Harsh, with NO real dynamics. Things are better with the SAE. I've come to the conclusion that tubes and hard rock don't mix. Tubes seem to "sag", lack a bit of slam. It seems that hard music needs a really clean audio chain or it just sounds either harsh or muddy. 2x UPA-1s do seem like the logical choice, however it means I have to wait longer to build up my amp fund. If I could get away with driving the JBL's at 4 ohms with the UPAs, then I'd have more than enough headroom. I'm planning to pick up the ERC-1 during the holidays, then the amp(s), and then DAC for my Squeezebox Touch. Hey, the more pretty blue lights.. the better. The UPA-2 should be a significant audible improvement over your SAE's. However, I would seriously consider going with the two UPA-1's if you can afford it (or even the XPA-2). The ES80's are tested not as efficient as the 91dB spec would imply, although they definitely should be considered 4 ohm impedance. S&V Magazine tested them at only 87dB's sensitivity and 2.8 ohms minimum and 4 ohms nominal. A speaker with 87dB sensitivity requires more than double the power of a speaker with a 91dB sensitivity. For a tower, the ES80's are below average in sensitivity. The low bass limit was a good 40Hz but that was at 10% distortion and only 84dB's in loudness. You can definitely use lots of power. There will be those who say that the 350 watts versus 185 watts into 4 ohms of the UPA-1's versus the UPA-2 is only about 3dB's and not a big improvement. I feel it is simply more headroom which can be great especially if you crank it up from time to time for your stated hard rock/power metal taste. Also the ES80 with the added super tweeter tends to be on the bright side. I think you will now hear that slight tendency toward brightness more defined than you did with the SAE amp. Making sure the amp gets nowhere near clipping on instantaneous peaks will keep it as clean and non-bright/edgy sounding as possible. Just one parenthetical comment here. I am a fan of defined, low distortion and loud bass when the source allows. This might not always be the case with vinyl. If you do go in the future to CD sources you might consider a high quality powered sub to compliment the low end of the ES80's. Just some food for thought. Welcome to the Emotiva Lounge! ;D from the Sound & Vision Test Bench By Tom Nousaine Frequency response (at 2 meters) • front left/right 46 Hz to 15 kHz ±7.6 dB Sensitivity (SPL at 1 meter with 2.8 volts of pink-noise input) front left/right 87 dB Impedance (minimum/nominal) front left/right 2.8/4 ohms Bass limits (lowest frequency and maximum SPL with limit of 10% distortion at 2 meters in a large room) front left/right 40 Hz at 84 dB
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Post by wizardofoz on Nov 20, 2010 6:04:22 GMT -5
I just did a audition with 2 x upa-1's and a upa-2 and the upa-1's win easily, but the upa-2 is no slouch either if budget is an issue. I am now the proud owner of 2 ordered upa-1's and a 3rd in hand to make a nice 5 channel set. My upa-7 now might be for sale...or could get rolled into bi-amping dues and a 2nd zone perhaps
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Post by johndavidson on Nov 20, 2010 7:37:22 GMT -5
32 watts should give you 99db at one meter. That would leave plenty of reserve power for peaks and dynamics from the UPA2. Even at 102db you would still have more than 3db of headroom without going out side the power rating of the amp. Unless you have a very large room or you just have the extra money the UPA2 should do fine. Just MHO.
By the way using the spec that Chukie list at 2.8 volts on a 4 ohm speaker you are actually applying 2 watts. So you speakers according to those measurements are more like 84db/W/M.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2010 14:03:16 GMT -5
Are you saying that even though JBL rates the ES80s at 8 ohms, they are happier running at 4 ohms?!?..........If I could get away with driving the JBL's at 4 ohms with the UPAs, then I'd have more than enough headroom. No, what I'm saying is that JBL specifies the ES80 as 8 ohms, that is not accurate in actual performance. It is very common for manufacturers to put a 8 ohm spec on speakers while they actually are 6 ohms or even 4 ohms impedance when tested. Remember that the impedance varies by frequency and the nominal figure from the tests is an acceptable average. In this case the ES80's actually tested out at 4 ohms by S&V Magazine. This means instead of the 200 watts they would draw from the UPA-1's they will actually draw 350 watts. 4 ohms is a more difficult load for an amp and it is important to have a very strong amp that will not shut down or overheat running into a 4 ohm speaker. "..........If I could get away with driving the JBL's at 4 ohms with the UPAs, then I'd have more than enough headroom..........." There is no getting away with it (no choice here), all amps including your SAE's are "seeing" a 4 ohm resistance with your ES80's. The impedance of the speaker decides that the amp will drive them with the higher wattage into 4 ohms. I hope this is clear. However, that does not mean they have plenty of headroom. I was making my recommendation based on the fact that the UPA-1's will put 350 watts continuous power into the ES80's. Here is the real question. Is the RMS/continuous power all you need to consider in deciding if you have enough power/headroom for instantaneous/peak power requirements? My answer is no. The maximum power a speaker will handle and the maximum peak power an amp will provide is sometimes far in excess of the continuous specification for brief very loud peaks. Having the extra headroom means never having a problem with occasional clipping.
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Post by johndavidson on Nov 20, 2010 16:23:15 GMT -5
These speakers are rated at 200 watts. And while JBL appears to have padded the 8 ohm rating, speaker companies rate there speakers based on the physical limitations of the drivers, both electrically and mechanically as well as the electrical limitations of the crossover component. I have seen speakers over driven that the caps in the crossover was completely blown apart. I have seen driver cones ripped form their spiders. I hate to admit it but I have done the later myself. Chuckie is very passionate about the extra power but your speaker are not rated to handle it. Of course even if you buy the extra power you don't have to use it. But money seems to be an issue for you so why buy it if you are not going to use it. ;D IMHO
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Post by EMO_tional on Nov 20, 2010 17:24:19 GMT -5
chuckienut,
I get what you're saying now, I'm just a little dense.
Interesting things to think about here.
It is true that I don't need louder, I have a small listening room, with many poor reflective hard surfaces. volume is not an issue.
This is why I thought about the UPS-2
However, I clearly notice that my system "struggles" with music depending on content.
Example, if I play the Eagles, or Styx, or any 70's style Rock, it sounds quite well, everything is clear and well defined.
Now, playing at about half- level (Using the SAE's dB LEDs as a ref.)
However, the "Harder" the music becomes, Metal Bands like Sonata Arctica ect, the music becomes congested, compacted.. the guitar and bass seem to mush together, and the top end does get harsher.
BTW, Symphonic Metal, (which contains alot of orchestral elements), does NOT sound good on my system, it's very busy and dynamic by nature, and seems to fall apart.
Does it seem fair to say that my amp just doesn't have the power to keep up with the musical demands, depending on content? reading some of these comments seems to suggest that output power not withstanding, 2 UPA-1's would offer more clarity, by the fact that they would not have to "struggle"..
Am I getting it yet?!?
I do have a small budget, as I want the ERC-1 and the XDA-1, however I'm willing to spend "just that little more", if the returns on the UPA-1 are greater.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2010 23:59:31 GMT -5
John makes some excellent points. The JBL ES80 is rated to handle up to 400 watts peak but these manufacturers rating are at best a rough estimate. One of the reasons JBL gives an 8 ohms rating IMO is that they don't want to scare off those owning receivers, most which are not that stable into 4 ohms.
You just brought up some very important facts that you should have mentioned in your first post, a small and lively room. You could really use some carpeting and room sound absorbing treatment. That said, another possibility is feedback thru your turntables that is tending to muddy up the heavy bass sources. Perhaps you could borrow a quality CD player just to compare the sound you get at high volumes.
With what you have now revealed it is entirely possible the UPA-2 might do it for you. The UPA-1's would be insurance if or when you upgrade your speakers in the future. The ES80's are an entry level JBL and I'm not sure how strong the drivers are. What John says about driver damage is entirely possible but usually distorted power from an amp that is overdriving/clipping is more often the problem for driver damage. Normally you will hear the speakers complaining before they are damaged (unless you are throwing a big party and are drunk ;D).
I'm really not sure whether the congested/mushy sound you hear on the heavy metal/rock is from the overly bright room, your SAE's running out of gas and distorting/clipping, your drivers reaching their limit or the feedback/vibration thru your turntable.
The ERC-1 with a copy of the same source that you have on vinyl would be a good way to compare and eliminate the turntable issue. I feel the upgrade in the amp and the ERC-1 will both make a significant improvement. However, the brightness is in my guess due to your ES80's high end and also the live room acoustics.
I hope it doesn't sound like I'm going in circles here. This is a very interesting thread to me and I look forward to hearing feedback as you upgrade your system.
My recommendation would be to first try if possible to deaden that room's acoustics. Then go for the ERC-1 and the UPA-2. See if that cleans up the sound on the heavy music and gives you more dynamic range (loud, clean playback). If it does but you still have the overly bright high end, then consider upgrading your speakers to something like the EMO 8.3 as your budget allows. I think you will get a good idea if the UPA-2 meets your power needs. If you think the JBL's are handling all the power of the UPA-2 then you could send it back for a small shipping amount and get the UPA-1's to add more headroom for now and in the future.
Keep us up to date on your progress. Hopefully John and others will add more of their advice. ;D
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Pauly
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Post by Pauly on Nov 21, 2010 0:40:46 GMT -5
You have to factor in too, that most heavy metal and even most very popular rock is rarely recorded and mastered well. In my experience, just about every metal recording I've heard, is congested, bright, and just bloody awful sounding. Especially on revealing speakers that have a strong top end.
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Post by EMO_tional on Nov 21, 2010 1:52:42 GMT -5
I'd love to "treat" the room, but I can't really. The JBLs are 6 inches from the wall and corners, awful place for them, however they are in the only spot they can go. The opposite being taken up by a large desk and bed.
I am thinking about putting at least some foam behind the speakers so the ports are not firing into the wall.
My turntables are very well isolated, wall mounted with either granite/maple isolation or multi-layered constrained damping.
I also have a digital transport to stream FLACs
I've isolated the room dynamics, bringing in an RTA/ with a mic, setting up my EQ to deal with most of the general muddy mid-bass issues. (There still is a difference in audio quality between types of content)
Using the pink noise generator combined with the RTA, I've cut the lower frequencies a bit, and removed the "boominess"
However, certain types of content will "congest" everything at mid volume levels. This isn't *just* related to Metal, as symphonic pieces with large, loud passages also feel "compressed"
Let me put it this way, Right now, my system will play a late 70ies Hard Rock song.."Roller" by April Wine, cleanly, clearly with good dynamics at say 65% total volume. Now, let's say I play a bass heavy loud Power Metal Song like " Master Passion Greed" at the same level.. the dynamics start to disappear, the bass is loud, but not sharp.. it mushes and blends into the guitar and drums, and a general harshness through-out.
However, now let me listen to the same song through a headphone amplifier and decent headphones, the muddiness disappears.
As far as rock/Metal recordings go, CD's mastered in the last 10 years tend to sound poor, due to the "Loudness War"
Earlier stuff tends to sound better Black Sabbath's Heaven and Hell is a superbly mastered LP Most Rush albums sound great as well.
While my room is far, far from perfect, and my speakers are certainly not the most detailed or subtle, I do feel like my amp is working too hard, it IS noisier than my previous tube amps. I don't need a large soundstage really, just strong, clean power that can react fast enough to the demands of my music choices.
I guess I'm fighting 3 issues: 1: Speakers unsuitable for the room 2: The Room itself 2: Old Amplification in questionable condition.
I can't do much about #2 for now, I've EQ'd to get as flat a response as I can, given limitations. (Things are much better with EQ, than without, as I said, I used an RTA to help EQ, not just my ears).
#1 will have to wait for funds #3 This is what I'm trying to address now.
When my USP-1 arrives on Monday, I'll have better idea.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2010 2:28:19 GMT -5
The JBLs are 6 inches from the wall and corners, awful place for them...... The opposite being taken up by a large desk and bed...... ".....6 inches from the wall and corners...." Bingo!BTW, what the hell is the bed for? ;D
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NorthStar
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Post by NorthStar on Nov 21, 2010 3:39:26 GMT -5
^ How can you not love this guy? ;D
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Post by EMO_tional on Nov 21, 2010 5:20:59 GMT -5
The JBLs are 6 inches from the wall and corners, awful place for them...... The opposite being taken up by a large desk and bed...... ".....6 inches from the wall and corners...." Bingo!BTW, what the hell is the bed for? ;D You make it seem so lurid.... It's a bedroom. I share a house with 3 other people (non-related), with my room being my only private space. There is of course a living room and den, but being communal, I'm not about to set up my audio gear where others can mess with it. I'm pretty sure I'll go for the UPA-1s, as there will be room to grow, and once I get some bigger surroundings and better speakers, I think the UPA-2 will start to sound thin.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2010 6:42:24 GMT -5
I share a house with 3 other people (non-related)Shocking! I'm not going to ask anymore questions. This might turn out to be a den of iniquity. ;D ;D ;D
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hemster
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Post by hemster on Nov 21, 2010 13:35:28 GMT -5
Chuckie, it's like I always say.. "Listening to music is a solo activity but making music is always better with someone else!" ;D ;D ;D
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Post by roadrunner on Nov 21, 2010 13:48:34 GMT -5
From everything you have told us about your HT, it appears you may have problems with the amps not having sufficient headroom, the speakers themselves not handling dynamics very well, and (possibly the worst) the placement of your speakers. You can test just how much the speaker placement is contributing to the problems you are experiencing. Temporarily move your speakers out from the back walls a couple of feet; and, if space allows move them further away from the side walls. Then run your test cuts and see how much of a difference it makes.
You will likely need better amps no matter what else you do, but the results of this little test can help you in focusing on where to devote more effort towards. You can fairly inexpensively help the rooms acoustics by putting up some insulated drapes and some carpeting/rugs. As far as speakers go, when you save funds to upgrade you might want to consider using good satellite or bookshelf speakers matched with a musical sub woofer.
When you have more trouble shooting with your room/HT setup share your findings with us. We may be able to offer alternate solutions to enable you to extract the best sounding system that you can afford to persue.
One last question that came to mind, when you talked about your turntable/cartridge, what brands/models are you using and have you double checked your tracking force, anti-skating, etc to ensure your setup is not contributing to your problems.
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RadTech
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Post by RadTech on Nov 21, 2010 14:28:51 GMT -5
You have to factor in too, that most heavy metal and even most very popular rock is rarely recorded and mastered well. In my experience, just about every metal recording I've heard, is congested, bright, and just bloody awful sounding. Especially on revealing speakers that have a strong top end. You got that right most Heavy metal albums are not recorded well. BTW, I dig the bat dog! ;D Is that your pug?
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