bootman
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Typing useless posts on internet forums....
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Post by bootman on Nov 16, 2012 11:40:13 GMT -5
Technically there isn't such a thing as a "musical" subwoofer unless your sub is playing above 80Hz. (then is it really sub territory?) Most music has little real info below that. I know there are exceptions but we don't all listen to the 1812 overture all the time.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2012 16:16:04 GMT -5
I'd love anyone to come to my place and see what a properly constructed 21" sub sounds like. It's in no way "slower" or anything else for that matter than any other size of driver. The fast-slow driver thing is an old myth and has been proven to be be a crock countless times. The way a design is implemented is what will make the difference. You can take a $1000 driver and make it sound like crap in the wrong box/amp. You can take a crappy driver and design a box to make it play within it's limits and sound pretty damn good.
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Post by boomzilla on Nov 16, 2012 16:29:33 GMT -5
...The fast-slow driver thing is an old myth and has been proven to be be a crock countless times...You can take a crappy driver and design a box to make it play within it's limits and sound pretty damn good. I'll agree, but the qualifier here (and it's a MAJOR qualifier) is the phrase "within its limits." For companies selling teacup size "main" speakers who expect their subwoofer to take over at 250 Hz. have a far greater expectation for the "limits" than someone who already has full-range mains. I won't argue with you that 15" drivers CAN successfully be crossed over as high as 800 Hz. but I'll tell you emphatically that I CAN hear the beaming and the frequency response anomalies when this is done. The point I'm trying to make is that the greater the radiating area, the less the excursion required to achieve the same sound pressure level. If you disagree with this statement, then some serious explanation is in order. With increased excursion comes exponential increases in intermodulation distortion and (usually) compression of the source waveform. For this reason, I'm not normally a fan of shoebox sized subwoofers with two-inch cone travel that need zillion-watt amplifiers. Properly used, passive radiators solve many problems by providing much more radiating area, reduced cabinet size, and Q control. Improperly used (as they often are in consumer grade subs), they provide "one note bass" in spades which is all many care about for movie use. If my initial statement was incomplete, I apologize.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2012 16:56:02 GMT -5
...The fast-slow driver thing is an old myth and has been proven to be be a crock countless times...You can take a crappy driver and design a box to make it play within it's limits and sound pretty damn good. I'll agree, but the qualifier here (and it's a MAJOR qualifier) is the phrase "within its limits." For companies selling teacup size "main" speakers who expect their subwoofer to take over at 250 Hz. have a far greater expectation for the "limits" than someone who already has full-range mains. I won't argue with you that 15" drivers CAN successfully be crossed over as high as 800 Hz. but I'll tell you emphatically that I CAN hear the beaming and the frequency response anomalies when this is done. The point I'm trying to make is that the greater the radiating area, the less the excursion required to achieve the same sound pressure level. If you disagree with this statement, then some serious explanation is in order. With increased excursion comes exponential increases in intermodulation distortion and (usually) compression of the source waveform. For this reason, I'm not normally a fan of shoebox sized subwoofers with two-inch cone travel that need zillion-watt amplifiers. Properly used, passive radiators solve many problems by providing much more radiating area, reduced cabinet size, and Q control. Improperly used (as they often are in consumer grade subs), they provide "one note bass" in spades which is all many care about for movie use. If my initial statement was incomplete, I apologize. My problem is that you are paint a very broad stroke with your opinions, much to broad. You are saying that you can hear beaming etc. What designs are you listening to? You can't think that just because you may have heard a few bad designs, that thats the way it is for all of them... can you? As for "The point I'm trying to make is that the greater the radiating area, the less the excursion required to achieve the same sound pressure level. If you disagree with this statement, then some serious explanation is in order." Well no kidding but is that why you are saying subs are slower and faster? I don't understand why you'd point that out. As for PR's, Most of the reason you don't see to many commercial designs are because of the added cost. For the most part, you can put the sub in a bit smaller box, add more power and get close to the same result with a little EQ, depending on the sub of course. Q control can be had with a properly designed box to start with, PR's are great if you want a more output in a small box with a limited amount of amp power.
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Post by boomzilla on Nov 16, 2012 17:09:04 GMT -5
Thank you - Yes, I've been far too broad with my statements. Everything you say is correct. The 15" woofer I was thinking of wasn't in a subwoofer, but rather in a Klipsch Cornwall.
My current subwoofer uses two 14" drivers and four 14" passive radiators. It is "quick" enough to make it up to any frequency I've asked it to reproduce yet. I think that it sounds so quick and makes it up to such high frequencies without any muddiness BECAUSE of the large radiating area and low excursion. Of course, I may be mistaken as to the cause, but the performance is undeniable.
I also agree that a competent design can almost make a silk purse from a sou's ear of a driver. Unfortunately, it seems to me that many of the commercial designers don't fret too much about their drivers or their designs. "If it thumps, it sells" seems to be the motto of many commercial vendors (at the low end).
As price rises, attention to both driver quality and design improves. Unfortunately, most will never spend enough to know what a good sub can do.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2012 19:41:42 GMT -5
Thank you - Yes, I've been far too broad with my statements. Everything you say is correct. The 15" woofer I was thinking of wasn't in a subwoofer, but rather in a Klipsch Cornwall. My current subwoofer uses two 14" drivers and four 14" passive radiators. It is "quick" enough to make it up to any frequency I've asked it to reproduce yet. I think that it sounds so quick and makes it up to such high frequencies without any muddiness BECAUSE of the large radiating area and low excursion. Of course, I may be mistaken as to the cause, but the performance is undeniable. I also agree that a competent design can almost make a silk purse from a sou's ear of a driver. Unfortunately, it seems to me that many of the commercial designers don't fret too much about their drivers or their designs. "If it thumps, it sells" seems to be the motto of many commercial vendors (at the low end). As price rises, attention to both driver quality and design improves. Unfortunately, most will never spend enough to know what a good sub can do. Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that there are many, MANY terrible speakers/subs on the market that sound like garbage, there are also many really great designs. This is the exact reason I like DIY subs. I can build how much or how little I want in the sub. Take the best of the best, or squeeze the most for the bang for my buck. As for speakers, I don't know enough about crossovers to build a complex one, so I just leave that up to Jeff at JTR lol
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Post by boomzilla on Nov 16, 2012 20:29:39 GMT -5
No question but that the same $$ buy LOTS more performance as DIY projects rather than commercial purchases.
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xki
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Gwack!
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Post by xki on Nov 16, 2012 22:14:11 GMT -5
I have 2 KSW-12 subs that have been bashed forever as entry level POS units. Both were used. Both are located next to my mains. And I'm really OK with them.
Musical? Sure! I needed to adjust the EQ to take care of the room, set the x-overs properly, set the slopes right, find the right physical position for them, and play with the levels but, for very few $$$ I have what I call musical subs. I listen to music half the time. Mostly progressive bands where tight low end is a must. I'm OK with what I've been able to achieve.
Yes, these subs have a bit of carry over. Yes, they are a bit slower than the really great subs. Yes, they are ported and down-firing. So be it. I can rock it at 95+ db and get that kick in the chest without the boooooom. Just a nice clean thud. And when the tracks have content below 45Hz - yes there are more than you would think - that content is very clear and precise.
I guess it all comes down to how you use what you have. I've heard a lot of those 1 note units. "Ooooo! My windows are rattling!" On an Enya cut? Wow! I'm impressed! /sarc
What makes a sub musical is what makes you smile when you play your favorite tracks. If you can get lost in the music and not think about how you should tweak this or that, your sub is musical. If you've done all you can do to find what you want and just can't get there, it's not a musical sub.
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Post by charlie7 on Nov 18, 2012 18:29:58 GMT -5
Where did you get your kit? So is it a passive radiator design? PM sent with details.
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Post by jjmontague on Jan 8, 2013 11:15:03 GMT -5
N8DOGG, any suggestions for a DIY small sealed sub? Or a pair of them? I need a sub for my family room and will likely build the cabinet myself.
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Post by boomzilla on Jan 8, 2013 14:19:09 GMT -5
I think that the "musical" in subs comes more from the room than the actual sub. I've a friend who has an execrably cheap sub with nothing like a remotely flat frequency response curve in its operating range. His room, however, is ideal for bass frequency standing-wave avoidance with a cathedral ceiling and an open passage in every corner to other parts of the house. In that room, the el-cheapo little sub sings far, far better than it has any right to.
Sub quality = 30% of performance, room quality =70%
IMHO...
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