Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2012 16:19:38 GMT -5
You can put an IB anywhere it fits. Then add EQ if necessary. What??? no way, you can't just put it anywhere. It could measure like crap at your seating pos. It's the same as having a sub in a bad area, certain places can be WAY better than others. I know from first hand experience when I built mine. At first it was great when I had my TV but after I got my projector setup, I had to move the sofa back about 6 feet. The IB is pretty much useless now, I sit right dead middle of a HUGE null, no amount of EQ can bring back and believe me, I have more than enough power to eq even 20-30dB nulls out. It's best to get a sub and try it out at the proposed location first if possible, that way you have at least an idea if it will work out at your seating pos or not. Otherwise it's just gambling.
|
|
jamrock
Emo VIPs
Courtesy Costs Nothing. Give Generously!
Posts: 4,750
|
Post by jamrock on Jul 6, 2012 17:09:58 GMT -5
According to a well respected audio scientist; The idea that one driver is "faster than another of a different size while producing the same frequency is laughable" Every driver of any size will have to vibrate at the same rate in order to produce the same frequency. The only difference is the amount of air each can move I will be using 2 x 12" subs with 2 x 15" subs eventually. My only concerns are: Making sure they are all in phase, where to x/o each pair and the filter slope to use to give the best result. But I'm not too concerned. I have the tools and know how to overcome those potentisal problems ;D
|
|
DYohn
Emo VIPs
Posts: 18,348
|
Post by DYohn on Jul 6, 2012 18:10:39 GMT -5
Yes, of course there will be better locations in a room and proper location for an IB should be identifed and used, but you really can put them anywhere, you just may have to live with compromises like limited bandwidth or using lots of EQ.
|
|
jamrock
Emo VIPs
Courtesy Costs Nothing. Give Generously!
Posts: 4,750
|
Post by jamrock on Jul 6, 2012 18:31:17 GMT -5
An open question: With todays sub and room correction systems, does it really matter where you place the sub(s) "reasonably" in a room? IMHO, if you have a sub with built in signal processing, it will serve to give you a reasonably good response throughout the room from that location. If you use the sub's inbuilt correction system inn addition to the one in the AVR or pre/pro, it will require less correction. Whether it be TacT, Audyssey, ARC, etc. What your thoughts? ;D
|
|
DYohn
Emo VIPs
Posts: 18,348
|
Post by DYohn on Jul 6, 2012 18:34:46 GMT -5
Signal processing can only cure so many ills, but it can make almost any setup sound acceptable. Proper placement (and room treatment) is still important if you are seeking optimal performance.
|
|
jamrock
Emo VIPs
Courtesy Costs Nothing. Give Generously!
Posts: 4,750
|
Post by jamrock on Jul 6, 2012 18:52:24 GMT -5
If my history serves me correctly, in the early development and proliferation of the use of the subwoofer, the conclusion was very quickly reached that it was not always practical to place a sub where it would perform optimally. Therefore, sub correction systems were developed to "cure the ill" of less than optimal (convenient) sub placements. Therefore, get as many good subs as you can afford. Tune them to the room and play away to your heart's content. Right ;D
|
|
LCSeminole
Global Moderator
Res firma mitescere nescit.
Posts: 20,495
|
Post by LCSeminole on Jul 6, 2012 19:20:21 GMT -5
I must admit I'm looking forward to the XMC-1 & TACT, along with my new two subwoofer setup!
|
|
geebo
Emo VIPs
"Too bad that all the people who know how to run the country are driving taxicabs and cutting hair"
Posts: 24,188
|
Post by geebo on Jul 6, 2012 20:40:06 GMT -5
I must admit I'm looking forward to the XMC-1 & TACT, along with my new two subwoofer setup! Congrats on the 2nd PB12+. Have you had it long?
|
|
LCSeminole
Global Moderator
Res firma mitescere nescit.
Posts: 20,495
|
Post by LCSeminole on Jul 6, 2012 20:54:39 GMT -5
I must admit I'm looking forward to the XMC-1 & TACT, along with my new two subwoofer setup! Congrats on the 2nd PB12+. Have you had it long? Thanks George, I ordered it yesterday afternoon after work. Just got shipping notification from SVS that R&L Carriers picked it up this morning, so I should take receipt probably next Wed or so.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2012 20:54:42 GMT -5
Yes, of course there will be better locations in a room and proper location for an IB should be identifed and used, but you really can put them anywhere, you just may have to live with compromises like limited bandwidth or using lots of EQ. Ahh ok I see what you mean. I read it like you were saying that it will be equally good in any area. I almost busted a nut! ;D
|
|
geebo
Emo VIPs
"Too bad that all the people who know how to run the country are driving taxicabs and cutting hair"
Posts: 24,188
|
Post by geebo on Jul 6, 2012 20:57:26 GMT -5
Congrats on the 2nd PB12+. Have you had it long? Thanks George, I ordered it yesterday afternoon after work. Just got shipping notification from SVS that R&L Carriers picked it up this morning, so I should take receipt probably next Wed or so. Looking forward to your impressions of the two of them together.
|
|
LCSeminole
Global Moderator
Res firma mitescere nescit.
Posts: 20,495
|
Post by LCSeminole on Jul 6, 2012 21:08:04 GMT -5
Definitely will give my impressions! I'm getting that feeling that this will make an appreciative difference in the home theater, and I'm not referring to the 127 lbs of each subwoofer! ;D
|
|
Erwin.BE
Emo VIPs
It's the room, stupid!
Posts: 2,261
|
Post by Erwin.BE on Jul 7, 2012 13:01:44 GMT -5
You should read this HK paper: www.harman.com/EN-US/OurCompany/Technologyleadership/Documents/White%20Papers/multsubs.pdfBut if you can't be bothered: CONCLUSION:Four subwoofers are enough to get the best results of any configuration tried. Two subwoofers is very nearly as good and has very good low frequency support as well.I got two ready, biggun's, 18" LLT design behind AT screen. Prepared two additional spots in the rear corners if (or rather, when) I want four.... Why do I think of getting four then? Because the two are on the front wall, between L&C and C&R speakers. A decent position, but maybe not the optimal position. Attachments:
|
|
jamrock
Emo VIPs
Courtesy Costs Nothing. Give Generously!
Posts: 4,750
|
Post by jamrock on Jul 7, 2012 13:25:57 GMT -5
2 subs are a big improvement over just using 1 sub. However, after 4 subs, there is the onset of diminishing returns up to about 8 when it no longer makes sense to add more subs. I never rule out any maximum when it comes to subs and amplifier power ;D
|
|
|
Post by Topend on Jul 7, 2012 16:09:46 GMT -5
An open question: With todays sub and room correction systems, does it really matter where you place the sub(s) "reasonably" in a room? IMHO, if you have a sub with built in signal processing, it will serve to give you a reasonably good response throughout the room from that location. If you use the sub's inbuilt correction system inn addition to the one in the AVR or pre/pro, it will require less correction. Whether it be TacT, Audyssey, ARC, etc. What your thoughts? ;D In the case of a null no amount of correction even if applying it at both the processor and sub will overcome that same null. Moving the sub to a better position within the room can. Most rooms have two or three options for positioning the sub, I'd go with the best position available to reduce the amount of correction required. Dave.
|
|
jamrock
Emo VIPs
Courtesy Costs Nothing. Give Generously!
Posts: 4,750
|
Post by jamrock on Jul 7, 2012 16:20:14 GMT -5
If you have dedicated HT room that might be possible. But not when your family room serve as the H/T room also. The sub has to be place where it is most convenient for family members and pets ;D Nevertheless, that does not negate the fact sub DSP and the RCS were developed to produce the best response where ever the sub & the mains were placed. No?
|
|
|
Post by Topend on Jul 7, 2012 17:09:25 GMT -5
If you have dedicated HT room that might be possible. But not when your family room serve as the H/T room also. The sub has to be place where it is most convenient for family members and pets ;D Nevertheless, that does not negate the fact sub DSP and the RCS were developed to produce the best response where ever the sub & the mains were placed. No? If you have a dedicated HT room then you would have more than the two or three locations I mentioned to position your sub. Most rooms would have more than one location available, hence I said "two or three". My shared room has six locations available, I thought two or three was reasonable. Dave.
|
|
|
Post by orangeLollies on Jul 7, 2012 18:10:14 GMT -5
You should read this HK paper: www.harman.com/EN-US/OurCompany/Technologyleadership/Documents/White%20Papers/multsubs.pdfBut if you can't be bothered: CONCLUSION:Four subwoofers are enough to get the best results of any configuration tried. Two subwoofers is very nearly as good and has very good low frequency support as well.I got two ready, biggun's, 18" LLT design behind AT screen. Prepared two additional spots in the rear corners if (or rather, when) I want four.... Why do I think of getting four then? Because the two are on the front wall, between L&C and C&R speakers. A decent position, but maybe not the optimal position. Good link, I too have referred to this... The Harmon papers are bang on the money in my opinion. Sad thing is I have pointed memebers to this type of info more times than I care to remember ...Yet for some strange reason, the referneces seem to get ignored or just goes in the too hard basket - Frustrating, as links like these provide the answers to most of the questions/debates going on and on ... yet they just keep comin up again and again.. and no, I'm not gonna post links again, cos I'm over it! Sorry guys, sick daughter and wife = broken sleep = less than tactful mood MEH
|
|
|
Post by orangeLollies on Jul 7, 2012 18:25:05 GMT -5
You can put an IB anywhere it fits. Then add EQ if necessary. What??? no way, you can't just put it anywhere. It could measure like crap at your seating pos. It's the same as having a sub in a bad area, certain places can be WAY better than others. I know from first hand experience when I built mine. At first it was great when I had my TV but after I got my projector setup, I had to move the sofa back about 6 feet. The IB is pretty much useless now, I sit right dead middle of a HUGE null, no amount of EQ can bring back and believe me, I have more than enough power to eq even 20-30dB nulls out. It's best to get a sub and try it out at the proposed location first if possible, that way you have at least an idea if it will work out at your seating pos or not. Otherwise it's just gambling. Dr. Earl Geddies propses a method of active mode cancellation by putting three subs in random places, with one higher than others to deal to floor-to-ceiling standing waves. I myself dont buy the 'random placement' aspect due to my current understanding of room modes and active cancellation, and his method is not well documented (from my searching) with scientific explanation to back it up... FYI
|
|
|
Post by mickeyharlow on Jul 7, 2012 19:24:21 GMT -5
Question! Could I use my JBL PB-10 as my second subwoofer with my SVS PB12-Plus? If so, how do I position them. I have an open floor plan with only 1 90 degree corner on the wall that my home theater is on. The rest of the room opens to the entrance and kitchen with dining room in back.
|
|