LCSeminole
Global Moderator 
Res firma mitescere nescit.
Posts: 20,490
|
Post by LCSeminole on Feb 19, 2012 9:41:13 GMT -5
Thanks for the thoughts on your comparison. While I have found that the Emotiva class AB power amplifiers pretty much have the same sound signature there are differences within these power amplifiers due mainly to more headroom and mono-block design. These power amplifiers are also what I call quite revealing, Neutral in nature, no coloration of the input signal. In other words what goes in comes out, only amplified. It always makes me wonder when other power amplifiers are described as warm or bright, as I've always been under the assumption that the producer of the source material want us to here it as they produced it, why then would there be a different sound signature from two different solid state power amplifiers of similar specifications if they are of the same class?  |
|
jamrock
Emo VIPs 
Courtesy Costs Nothing. Give Generously!
Posts: 4,750
|
Post by jamrock on Feb 19, 2012 9:58:26 GMT -5
There are no warm solid state amps or bright solid state amps. Unless there are objective measurements showing manipulation of the frequency responses of the amps, or the amps are poorly constructed. There are, however, real differences between solid state and tube amps. The OP did not explain how the identified differences were obtained. I don't think that he conducted any objective tests and might be just parroting a legend. I once asked the question: How could 2 amps that measured identical sound different. The only response was that current technology is not able to identify, less measure everything in the signal. There is no cure for this thinking. I rest my case.
|
|
LCSeminole
Global Moderator
Res firma mitescere nescit.
Posts: 20,490
|
Post by LCSeminole on Feb 19, 2012 10:10:47 GMT -5
My response isn't to question what "corbaatje" heard, as he clearly hears a difference, but to question why the Proceed Amp 5 would be coloring the source material as it moves through it's output stages. With all things being the same in his setup besides the power amplifiers, why then would these two power amplifiers of similar specs sound so different to the OP? I haven't looked to hard, but I'm assuming that the Proceed is of class AB design as well.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2012 10:51:27 GMT -5
Yeah, and one might injure your back lifting that heavy thing (well over 100 lbs!). (My wife and I had no problem lifting our XPA-5)
Now let's proceed to the next post.
|
|
jamrock
Emo VIPs
Courtesy Costs Nothing. Give Generously!
Posts: 4,750
|
Post by jamrock on Feb 19, 2012 13:25:43 GMT -5
Whether the amps are A, AAB, A/B, D, G, or H, it does not matter. Those types address the issues of power, efficiency and noise mainly. They don't change the waveform of the signal nor the frequency response if they are flat 20Hz - 20Khz. Warm sounding tends to be a rolling off of the high frequencies and bright tends to boost the high frequencies. So, unless there is manipulation of the frequency response, especially in a home environment, there should be no difference. Also, unless he listened to the amps in difference venues, he could possibly hear a difference. A room with a lot of hard, reflective surfaces; tiles, glass, leather, tends to sound brighter than one with a lot of damping such as heavy drapes, carpeting, cloth couches, etc. But in this case, the difference does not lie in the amps but the room.
|
|
|
|
Post by patmacav on Feb 19, 2012 14:13:26 GMT -5
I kind of look at things from a musician's perspective. Let's say we have five acoustic double basses. Most likely, they'll each have their own sound signature, especially if some are fully carved and some are laminated (plywood). When we say fully carved, we're talking about the face of the bass being carved out of a single piece of wood as opposed to shaped from several layers of laminated plywood. Fully carved basses are higher maintenance and subject to responding to changes in humidity more adversely than laminated basses. Laminated basses handle changes in humidity more readily than their fully carved cousins but usually don't sound as full, rich, and resonant as a fully carved bass.
To me, an instrument is the sum of it's parts, just as an amplifier is the sum of it's parts. I would think that there are so many diverse parts in an amplifier, that it would not surprise me at all to find that two of the same model amplifiers could sound quite similar but in fact different from each other. And it wouldn't surprise me at all if I liked the sound of one of two of the same amplifiers better then the other. So, say what you like about all solid state amplifiers sounding the same, I don't think that I would agree. I'm not saying that I would hear a difference or be able to describe the difference that I hear, if I heard it. What I'm saying is that I might like the sound of one amp over the sound of another, and it might just be as simple as that.
|
|
jamrock
Emo VIPs
Courtesy Costs Nothing. Give Generously!
Posts: 4,750
|
Post by jamrock on Feb 19, 2012 15:26:38 GMT -5
Yes. Different designs take different paths to get to 20Hz - 20Khz. One might be more efficient that the other, or has more headroom. But, the path they take is not the discussion here, it is the final outcome. And the question is whether the outcome is dis-similar. And if so, can you hear a repeatable difference under controlled condition? The Ford Mustang uses a piston engine and the Mazda RX-7 uses a rotary engine. If they go 0-60 in 4.3 secs, which has the faster 0-60 time? Neither. Different technology but the same result. That is my point. BTW, a power amp should only amplify the signal it receives to drive the speaker. It should not add to, nor subtract anything from the signal. If it does, it is defective ;D
|
|
|
|
Post by dust770 on Feb 20, 2012 17:32:43 GMT -5
Wouldn't NOT running Audyssey again have been the best way to compare apples to apples? Having the amp under the exact same Audyssey settings? Once you've run it again how do you know that the adjustments Audyssey made aren't whats made it sound different to you? I get a slightly different result every time I run room correction.
|
|
jamrock
Emo VIPs
Courtesy Costs Nothing. Give Generously!
Posts: 4,750
|
Post by jamrock on Feb 20, 2012 17:41:41 GMT -5
Excellent suggestion, and possibly the most likely culprit.
|
|
|
|
Post by generalkorrd on Feb 22, 2012 0:13:02 GMT -5
An amp should be a "straight wire with gain", or as close to it as possible( which is where we are today). I would venture that the Proceed, IF it did in fact sound different, may intentionally be that way as it was "revised"( who knows what that actually means). I am by no means an expert, but I am sure you can change the sound characteristics of an amp by "revising" things inside. In other words, the person who "revised" the Proceed screwed it up, and changed it from what the manufacturer built. Good luck with your old, rebuilt, "revised" amp!
|
|
|
|
Post by Porscheguy on Feb 22, 2012 10:20:23 GMT -5
|
|
LCSeminole
Global Moderator
Res firma mitescere nescit.
Posts: 20,490
|
Post by LCSeminole on Feb 22, 2012 10:36:50 GMT -5
I have always liked the NAD sound. I have always believed that NAD is all about sound first and everything else second. |
|
|
|
Post by sharkman on Feb 22, 2012 12:49:12 GMT -5
I had a chance to buy a revised Proceed Amp 5 for an offer I just could not refuse. So now I owned both the Xpa 5 and the Amp 5 and had to choose which Amp would stay. I played with both Amps for several days and ran Audyssey on my Denon AVR 3311 when I changed the Amp. The Proceed(almost 60 kg heavy) is 125W by 8 Ohm vs the XPA 5 200W by 8 Ohm. The difference in Watts is no issue, both produce more power than my ears could handle. The XPA 5 has a more forward, speedier sound and the Amp 5 has a warmer, richer sound. These difference also apply when I did not use Audyssey. For me it is clear that the Amp 5 is in a different class; the soundstage, surround bubble, musicality, 'live' feeling is better with the Amp 5. It is quiet and not the slightest hum can be heared. So I sold my XPA 5 but have to say for the price the XPA 5 is a wonderfull Amp and you'll have to pay a lot more money(or buy an revised oldie  ) to upgrade from the XPA 5. Thanks for your thoughts, I have come to the same conclusion that Emotiva XPA amps tend to be a bit forward. And don't bother with people that refer to your results as, "parroting a legend". |
|
|
|
Post by htinparadise on Feb 22, 2012 13:01:04 GMT -5
All $10.00 USD Pino Noir wine taste exactly the same as Gran Cru Richebourg or Romanee-Conti wine. A Stativarius Violin sounds identical to a mass produced $100.00 unit. This is strictly not true to all who properly percieve and such is also the reality of Audio. Folks that claim that all audio equipment sounds the same all fail to admit that ''possibly they alone cannot hear or appreciate any significant difference in sound between equipment.'' Do all audio nay sayers qualify their negativity with evidance that they have perfect pitch, without hearing defect and are not tone def? If all audio equipment sounds exactly like an AM radio then this is an indication that you are tone def. Strictly, this does not mean there are other listeners that CAN differenciate audio differences. Do a Google search on genius Super Taster Robert Parker of the wine industry. Read how he can reliably remember a single wine (by year of production, grape type, etc.), taste among the millions he has experienced. The Nordost audio cable company has also consulted an independent company to develop a measurement system to definitively prove the sonic differences in speaker and interconnect cables. Check: www.nordost.com/downloads and read ''New Approaches to Audio Measurement.pdf.'' Hearing is believing. Kindest regards, HTinP |
|
|
|
Post by sharkman on Feb 22, 2012 14:37:51 GMT -5
There was an old favorite song of mine that had several voices singing at least a 4 part harmony. I once played it for a room mate who was managing a stereo shop at the time. At the end of the song he said that it was nice, but the fellow singing the bass part was flat on his last note.
I had listened to that song many times and never heard that error as he did. And I can indeed hear it when a soloist is singing flat or sharp. All hearing is not equal just as not all eyesight is equal.
|
|
|
|
Post by dust770 on Feb 22, 2012 14:46:17 GMT -5
I would hope so for 2channels at a mere $5,999!  |
|
|
|
Post by jdskycaster on Feb 22, 2012 15:17:33 GMT -5
corbaatje,
Amp comparisons can be bloody affairs. Any forum dedicated to sound will have many examples of these types of battles so I would urge you to not be personally offended. All that really matters is that you are happy with your results.
|
|
|
|
Post by generalkorrd on Feb 22, 2012 15:57:14 GMT -5
All $10.00 USD Pino Noir wine taste exactly the same as Gran Cru Richebourg or Romanee-Conti wine. A Stativarius Violin sounds identical to a mass produced $100.00 unit. This is strictly not true to all who properly percieve and such is also the reality of Audio. Folks that claim that all audio equipment sounds the same all fail to admit that ''possibly they alone cannot hear or appreciate any significant difference in sound between equipment.'' Do all audio nay sayers qualify their negativity with evidance that they have perfect pitch, without hearing defect and are not tone def? If all audio equipment sounds exactly like an AM radio then this is an indication that you are tone def. Strictly, this does not mean there are other listeners that CAN differenciate audio differences. Do a Google search on genius Super Taster Robert Parker of the wine industry. Read how he can reliably remember a single wine (by year of production, grape type, etc.), taste among the millions he has experienced. The Nordost audio cable company has also consulted an independent company to develop a measurement system to definitively prove the sonic differences in speaker and interconnect cables. Check: www.nordost.com/downloads and read ''New Approaches to Audio Measurement.pdf.'' Hearing is believing. Kindest regards, HTinP Spam combined with the old "wires sound different argument"? |
|
|
|
Post by jmilton on Feb 22, 2012 16:41:55 GMT -5
All $10.00 USD Pino Noir wine taste exactly the same as Gran Cru Richebourg or Romanee-Conti wine. A Stativarius Violin sounds identical to a mass produced $100.00 unit. This is strictly not true to all who properly percieve and such is also the reality of Audio. Folks that claim that all audio equipment sounds the same all fail to admit that ''possibly they alone cannot hear or appreciate any significant difference in sound between equipment.'' Do all audio nay sayers qualify their negativity with evidance that they have perfect pitch, without hearing defect and are not tone def? If all audio equipment sounds exactly like an AM radio then this is an indication that you are tone def. Strictly, this does not mean there are other listeners that CAN differenciate audio differences. Do a Google search on genius Super Taster Robert Parker of the wine industry. Read how he can reliably remember a single wine (by year of production, grape type, etc.), taste among the millions he has experienced. The Nordost audio cable company has also consulted an independent company to develop a measurement system to definitively prove the sonic differences in speaker and interconnect cables. Check: www.nordost.com/downloads and read ''New Approaches to Audio Measurement.pdf.'' Hearing is believing. Kindest regards, HTinP Spam combined with the old "wires sound different argument"? My wires taste metallic with a hint of fine copper. Don't tell me wires don't taste differently!!  |
|
|
|
Post by generalkorrd on Feb 22, 2012 17:03:09 GMT -5
I also like how I have to go to the manufacturers website for proof. Even though every informed article out there has proven that wires don't change sound.
|
|
) to upgrade from the XPA 5.
