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UPA-500
Aug 18, 2012 12:48:44 GMT -5
Post by thepcguy on Aug 18, 2012 12:48:44 GMT -5
Headroom.... headroom.... Can you really hear it? I THINK NOT
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Post by AudioHTIT on Aug 18, 2012 13:02:25 GMT -5
Headroom.... headroom.... Can you really hear it? I THINK NOT I'm trying to make the correlation to headroom, I know some of these amps but not all. Is this a comparison between lower and higher power amps (hence one has more headroom)?
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Post by AudioHTIT on Aug 18, 2012 13:10:21 GMT -5
Besides the advantages noted in the monoblock discussion, another thing I like (for 2 channel), is being able to put the amps close to the speakers, this lets you run short speaker wire and gives some visual symmetry - it also spreads the heat.
... but I couldn't afford the real estate to do it for HT
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stiehl11
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UPA-500
Aug 18, 2012 13:10:53 GMT -5
Post by stiehl11 on Aug 18, 2012 13:10:53 GMT -5
^What you see in the study is akin to Take the Pepsi Challenge. Good for marketing bad for study. There are test out there to test an amplifier's "sonic signature". However, one thing you'll see is that, with exceptions of some really poor amps, they'll sound very similar. So, if you're someone who can feel when someone has sat in your seat and messed up your butt-groove or maybe moved your speaker a bit/moved an EQ slider; you'll likely pick up on it pending that the rest of your gear is sensitive enough to translate it.
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Post by AudioHTIT on Aug 18, 2012 13:16:44 GMT -5
Ya, but even if you just accept (for sake of discussion) that "all good amplifiers sound the same", there is little argument that you need sufficient power for your speakers, room, listening, etc. I just didn't get why it was being presented with the "headroom" intro?
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stiehl11
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UPA-500
Aug 18, 2012 13:51:28 GMT -5
Post by stiehl11 on Aug 18, 2012 13:51:28 GMT -5
There are lots of different reasons why different amps have slight sonic signatures. A lot of people grasp at straws because, short of the principles of how an amplifier works, most people have not designed and built their own amp from a gaggle of parts on a table. If anyone has the opportunity to talk with an amp designer (say, someone like Lonnie) about what makes an amp sound the way it does, it will blow your mind. Granted, all designers will tell you that they all want to design/make the most neutral amplifier. However, it's not that easy, nor is it cheap. As there are all sorts of different design solutions to "making the perfect amp" for all sorts of different prices you can start to see where sonic signatures come in to play.
Ultimately, as the old saying goes, you have to kill the engineer and throw the switch. The meaning of this saying in this situation is that not everyone is going to hear what the designer hears with their creation. Think of it this way; picture a bell-shape curve where the majority of listeners will be in the middle with those on the tailing edges will be the ones with less discerning or more discerning listening ability. This ability is a synergy of equipment, room, and genetics. Now, where do you want your engineer? If you want to make world-class stuff you would want your engineer to be on the edge of the better than average discerning listener. Guess where the majority of us are? Regardless of how long we've been listening or how much we've spent (or not spent) on our gear we're most likely to be in the middle. At some point cost comes in to play and the increased cost to be able to satisfy those on the far edge of discerning listening comes at odds with what the majority will be able to hear and more importantly; afford. In other words; less and less people will be able to hear a difference between an amp of an average grade verses one of a higher grade. Therefore, a decision has to be made to keep the cost at the point where marketing says the amp will sell to the most available people in the market while making enough margin to sustain business.
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UPA-500
Aug 18, 2012 14:56:44 GMT -5
Post by thepcguy on Aug 18, 2012 14:56:44 GMT -5
^ If a 'designer' or someone has a distinctively 'different' ear physiology than what biology tells us, no one has the capability, even Lonnie to identify his Amp from one another 100% all the time. Blind testing of course. That is why NO MANUFACTURER has ever tried to demonstrate or even participated in a BLIND listening test to prove this claim.
About headroom,
from 100 watt to 200 watt, you only gain +3db which is probably just one click on the volume dial to match the level.
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Post by AudioHTIT on Aug 18, 2012 15:17:01 GMT -5
About headroom, from 100 watt to 200 watt, you only gain +3db which is probably just one click on the volume dial to match the level. I hope your volume control has better resolution than 3dB, typical units these days use 0.5 dB increments. 1dB was developed as a reference because it is the smallest difference that humans can usually hear (but we can sometimes hear less). That makes 3dB 3 times the smallest noticable amount, definitely noticeable and in my opinion a significant - if you need it. Which also implies that if you think you need more power you should probably at least double what you have to get a useful improvement (all other things being equal).
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jamrock
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UPA-500
Aug 18, 2012 15:20:35 GMT -5
Post by jamrock on Aug 18, 2012 15:20:35 GMT -5
The reason that all implifiers will have very "little difference in sound output" is that all of them are "designed to be neutral" or to have very little or no deviation from the input signal other than to magnify the input signal according to respective gains. No manufacturer will gloat that their amplifiers "color the sound" There are differences of amplifier classes or topologies, design philosophies and engineering integrity and evitably performance to make its final measurement 0Hz - 20KHz 0.00% ThD, and 1 ohm stable, with high imput impedance and low output impedance. That is the ideal amp. Performance is defined by how close to the ideal measurements the amplifier achieves. Now, each topology had it's merits and drawbacks. How well the drawbacks are minimize, determines how successful the design philosophy is. This is why some manufacturers can give very generous warranties with thier amplifiers. Otherwise, they would be using their profits to effect repairs. Whether or not reply #340 is relevant to this topic under discussion is open for some debate. But the facts it reveals will remain unchangeable for a very long time yet, until we can achieve significant changes in electronic principles. Don't waste your time looking forward to that day ;D
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UPA-500
Aug 18, 2012 16:12:02 GMT -5
Post by thepcguy on Aug 18, 2012 16:12:02 GMT -5
About headroom, from 100 watt to 200 watt, you only gain +3db which is probably just one click on the volume dial to match the level. I hope your volume control has better resolution than 3dB, typical units these days use 0.5 dB increments. 1dB was developed as a reference because it is the smallest difference that humans can usually hear (but we can sometimes hear less). That makes 3dB 3 times the smallest noticable amount, definitely noticeable and in my opinion a significant - if you need it. Which also implies that if you think you need more power you should probably at least double what you have to get a useful improvement (all other things being equal). the volume control is just for 'dramatic' effect on my part to make a point you just need to adjust the volume 'a little' to level matched a 100 watt and a 200 watt amp.
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Post by AudioHTIT on Aug 18, 2012 20:12:53 GMT -5
Maybe some less controversial considerations between the UPA-500 and XPA-5, or the UPA-700 vs XPA-7 might help some sort out the decision. If you think the U series might have enough power but you're not sure if you'll be "happy" with your decision and you're thinking of going for the the X series, make sure you also consider.
UPA-500 - Size: 17" x 4" x 16" (2RU) - Weight: 23 lbs - Price: $399 XPA-5 - Size: 17" x 8" x 19" (4RU) - Weight: 73 lbs - Price: $899
Then based on comments by Dan and others (but also some guessing as neither of these are available), the following is observant conjecture (feel free to correct, disagree, or speculate further).
UPA-700 - Size: 17" x 4" x 16" (2RU) - Weight: 29 lbs - Price: $499? XPA-7 - Size: 17" x 10" x 19" (5RU) - Weight: 89 lbs - Price: $1149?
The U series will produce less heat but may have occasional fan noise (though no reports I've seen). They will also draw less current at idle and at full power (the U's would be greener). Due to their small size and weight, placement should be fairly easy. The U's only support unbalance connections and have basic status indicators.
The X series will be more sensitive to placement for heat buildup and dissipation, and you will need a substantial shelf to hold either of these big boys (it would probably be helpful to have a friend for unpacking and placement). Idle current and max power consumption will be higher on the X's and you may be looking at a 2nd 15A or single 20A circuit. The X series supports balanced or unbalanced connections. Then there's the build quality advantage in the X series that some will appreciate, and the aesthetic qualities that many enjoy - including the LED monitoring and metering capabilities.
So a summary of the differences in the two multi-channel amp series that you should consider along with the power and audible concerns.
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Erwin.BE
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It's the room, stupid!
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UPA-500
Aug 19, 2012 3:23:30 GMT -5
Post by Erwin.BE on Aug 19, 2012 3:23:30 GMT -5
This discussion fits right into my decision process on equipment for a new HT. I have already purchased a UMC-1 and planned to upgrade to the XMC-1 when available. I'm planning a 7.2 channel system (assuming the XMC-1 with separate sub outputs) using Klipsch Heritage speakers. 104 dB sensitivity for the LCR La Scalas and 96 dB for the four Heresy speakers that will be used for the side and rear surrounds. So with very efficient speakers, will I be able to hear an appreciable difference between a UPA-700 and an XPA-7? I know the XPA-7 isn't out yet, but I believe Dan has at least hinted about it. Or, put another way, if the XPA-7 does not materialize, am I likely to be happy with a UPA-700 in a 3200 cubic foot theater with these speakers? Does anyone have firsthand experience with the Klipsch Heritage speakers and the Emo UPA amps? Thanks, Chuck First of all: congratulations with the speakers! You got great taste, the Heritage series is a lovingly line of speakers. Who needs those matchbox sized plastic boxes, huh? There's no substitute for cubic inches! Did you go for black, being for a HT? I was wondering what your screen will be? I mean, those La Scala's are 38.5" high, will the screen not be to high starting above the speakers? Or are you putting the center behind an AT screen? A cool way to amp the set would be 3*UPA-100 for LCR (I believe a small mono amp is considered by Emo as successor to UPA-1) and 2*UPA-200 for each side of surround+back. But maybe you should spend more! Get XPR-5 & XPR-2 ;D Or turn to Sherbourn. They stole "our" XPR-7 I sincerely hope the XPA-7 will sell like icecream. Make Big Dan think about returning the XPR-7 to where it belongs. An interesting write about amp power needed here: avihifi.blogspot.be/2011/04/how-much-power-does-amplifier-need.htmlAVI make those cool active speakers with built in DAC: www.avihifi.co.uk/adm9.html
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UPA-500
Aug 19, 2012 10:53:13 GMT -5
Post by cwmcobra on Aug 19, 2012 10:53:13 GMT -5
Thanks for all the information guys! I can't say that it has conclusively made my decision for me, but it's a great list of items to be considered in the decision making process. After reading your responses, I've added a couple more options to the potential amp list. First, as cfelliott suggested, a UPA-200/UPA-500 combo. I like the idea of having reserve power for the LR mains, but sometimes wonder if it's a mistake to not drive the front soundstage with all the same components. I believe the center channel is mostly voice, but it's still very active and I'm sure there are lots of transients present. So, if I'm going to consider a UPA combo approach, then I should also consider it's XPA cousins. So I've also added to the list an XPA-2/XPA-5 combo. That would be top notch in my book and it's only $100 more cost than the XPA-300/XPA-500 approach. I've not gone all the way to monoblocks since I feel for my application, they would definitely be overkill. Also, I had overlooked the fact that the UPA amps have fans in them and I'm trying very hard to eliminate any fan noise in my theater, so that's a potential downside for the UPA family.
Erwin, thanks for the link to the AVI blog piece on amp requirements. That supports the XPA-2/XPA-5 approach, doesn't it? To answer your other questions, all of my Heritage speakers were purchased used and are 30+ years old. They are a variety of stained colors on the original unfinished Birch cabinets. None are black. But that doesn't matter because I will "hide" the LCRs all behind a 133" Seymour Centerstage XD AT screen (sound familiar?) and plan to build the Heresy surrounds into pillars with AT fabric hiding them. I still have a lot of planning to do, but I was confident enough in the general approach to buy the speakers and start planning for the amps to drive them. I wish Emotiva would make a subwoofer amp! All the pro amps that most people use to drive passive subs have fans in them (most of them quite noisy) and I'm having trouble finding a good a quiet amp that will rack mount (I don't like the potential look of a plate amp in a wood cabinet in the rack). I'm looking at a custom Class D amp for that purpose that should be quiet as a mouse, but an Emo product would complete "the look" in my rack.
One final comment, Erwin. I like your analogy of large cabinet speakers to "cubic inches". I'm a classic car nut too!
Cheers!
Chuck
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stiehl11
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UPA-500
Aug 19, 2012 12:24:09 GMT -5
Post by stiehl11 on Aug 19, 2012 12:24:09 GMT -5
I'm not sure about the Klipsch but I know that my speakers do the exact opposite of the speakers the author of the blog states: mine do not go higher in resistance as the frequency drops. Mine actually dip to about 2.6 ohm below 80hz. At 2.6 ohm they will draw a lot more current than they do when the frequencies are higher. My speakers aren't the only ones that do this. Further more, if your L/C/R are 104db sensitive at one meter then with an XPA-2 hooked up your L/R you'll be producing 128 db (at one meter or about 3 feet from your speaker) PLUS headroom! The good news will be that, unless you have a very spacious room you're putting these in (like the size of a multiplex theater), you'll be able to feel like you're on the deck of the aircraft carrier when the planes take off in Top Gun. The thing is that even the deck crew know enough to wear hearing protection when observing that!
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UPA-500
Aug 19, 2012 12:45:19 GMT -5
Post by Chuck Elliot on Aug 19, 2012 12:45:19 GMT -5
I'm not sure about the Klipsch but I know that my speakers do the exact opposite of the speakers the author of the blog states: mine do not go higher in resistance as the frequency drops. Mine actually dip to about 2.6 ohm below 80hz. At 2.6 ohm they will draw a lot more current than they do when the frequencies are higher. My speakers aren't the only ones that do this. Further more, if your L/C/R are 104db sensitive at one meter then with an XPA-2 hooked up your L/R you'll be producing 128 db (at one meter or about 3 feet from your speaker) PLUS headroom! The good news will be that, unless you have a very spacious room you're putting these in (like the size of a multiplex theater), you'll be able to feel like you're on the deck of the aircraft carrier when the planes take off in Top Gun. The thing is that even the deck crew know enough to wear hearing protection when observing that! Older Klipsch Heritage speakers do in fact have an impedance rise above the woofer crossover. This is because they use an autoformer to attenuate the horns to match the SPL of the woofer. The autoformer has a side effect of multiplying the driver impedance as the attenuation increases. This is the crossover for a Heresy:
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Erwin.BE
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It's the room, stupid!
Posts: 2,259
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UPA-500
Aug 19, 2012 14:22:57 GMT -5
Post by Erwin.BE on Aug 19, 2012 14:22:57 GMT -5
The AVI HiFi man is Ashley James. He has very strong views that not everybody shares.
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panterapunch
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"Its Better to BurnOut than to Fade Away"
Posts: 101
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UPA-500
Sept 28, 2012 3:20:17 GMT -5
Post by panterapunch on Sept 28, 2012 3:20:17 GMT -5
hello i need your thoughts on this because I'm doubtful i have a couple of ert-8 for left and right and a 6.3 for the center channel, i don't have a procesor because im waiting for the new umc 200 or 500 now i asked for a quote for the xpa - 500 but im thinking maybe the upa 500 its enough, so the xpa-2 and the upa-500 do you think can be a good match? my room its small so maybe the xpa-500 its to much besides i can save some coins thanks
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UPA-500
Sept 28, 2012 8:54:12 GMT -5
Post by garbulky on Sept 28, 2012 8:54:12 GMT -5
There is no XPA-500. Do you mean the XPA-5? I'll let a ERT owner answer your questions. I believe roadrunner has owned these and he could give you an idea.
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panterapunch
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UPA-500
Sept 28, 2012 11:35:04 GMT -5
Post by panterapunch on Sept 28, 2012 11:35:04 GMT -5
Yup sorry no xpa 500
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UPA-500
Sept 28, 2012 12:23:11 GMT -5
Post by roadrunner on Sept 28, 2012 12:23:11 GMT -5
hello i need your thoughts on this because I'm doubtful i have a couple of ert-8 for left and right and a 6.3 for the center channel, i don't have a procesor because im waiting for the new umc 200 or 500 now i asked for a quote for the xpa - 500 but im thinking maybe the upa 500 its enough, so the xpa-2 and the upa-500 do you think can be a good match? my room its small so maybe the xpa-500 its to much besides i can save some coins thanks You really have not provided enough information about your listening room, your intended list of A/V equipment, and your listening habits with movies/video and audio for us to provide you with an educate response to your amp needs. What are the exact dimensions of your listening room? ...the number, size, and location of doors and windows? ...the number and location of speakers, 5.1 or 7.1 channels? ...do you have an "open floor plan" with adjacent rooms? ...type of construction materials for floors, walls and ceiling, carpeting or wood/tile flooring, flat or cathedral ceilings, etc? All of these things influence the power needed for your Home Theater system. The Emotiva Reference Series speakers are very dynamic and can be driven to very high sound pressure levels, but they are not very efficient. Thus you may need XPA power amps if you like listening to music and movie soundtracks at convincing levels. The more information you can share with us the more accurate our feedback to you will be. You are off to a good start with the ERT-8.3s and the ERM-6.3 for center channel. If you have a floor plan or photographs of your listening room it would be very useful to us in tailoring our responses to you. Welcome to the Emotiva Lounge.
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