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Post by Porscheguy on May 24, 2012 6:59:30 GMT -5
bigred gets it. Sonos, while sounding very good is not really aimed at audiophile enthusiasts but rather people that want multi room setups and don't want to spend $$$ on a custom installed system. I have 2 rooms for some serious listening where my Snell's are set up, but the rest of the house is all Sonos.
Bedroom: 2 Play Fives (I'll put them against the Air Motiv's anyday) Kitchen: 1 Play Five Garage: 1 Play Five Glass Porch: Sonos ZP 120 running 2 Emotiva UOM 6.2 and Velodyne Impact Mini sub
When I have parties I take the Play 5 out of the garage and put it on the deck. I'd be interested to see what that little sub will do. And like I said, it's portable. Put it where you like.
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Post by jdskycaster on May 24, 2012 9:20:09 GMT -5
I would be a bit more enthusiastic about this sub if it was in the $300 range. Many here that have experience with subs realize how hard it is to overcome some simple design principles related to building a product that performs well. When a manufacturer is beating their chest about a product that lacks any reference to driver size, amplifier power and that when looking at the dimensions alone raises suspicion about its ability to deliver a "spine-curling, jaw-dropping, full body experience" that makes it an easy target.
There are quite a few wireless subs on the market some of which are performance related as in the case of the HSU ULS-15 wireless sub. Although you cannot fit it under a couch it's dimensions are not huge has pretty high WAF and it can deliver a true "full body experience" for both two channel and HT in almost any size room. It does cost $1100 but it is also a true subwoofer.
Go out to Amazon and search keyword "wireless sub" you will find many competing products from JBL, Polk, Klipsch and Yamaha all for less than $300 shipped are easy to use and do not require a custom installer.
You are spot on when you say this sub is not geared for the typical member of this site. Why, because we are fundamentally looking for audio and video gear that delivers high performance per dollar. And although I really hope this product can deliver that the odds are greatly stacked against it.
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on May 24, 2012 9:45:53 GMT -5
Sonos makes great gear that does exactly what they sell it for. I am sure this subwoofer will integrate perfectly with their systems.
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hemster
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Post by hemster on May 24, 2012 9:53:40 GMT -5
I'll reserve on passing judgment until I've listened to it. However, it is likely that they're being a little economical with the truth in their marketing jargon. They're certainly not the only company that do this. All that said, if it integrates well with the rest of the Sonos system components, then why not?
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Post by jdskycaster on May 24, 2012 10:09:42 GMT -5
Interested in hearing some impressions of the actual product when it ships. I agree that I shoudl not pass any judgement since it has not shipped yet.
Maybe they really have found a way to beat the science at play with regard to this particular product.
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Post by monkumonku on May 24, 2012 10:14:29 GMT -5
I have a Sonos system (not the speakers but the streaming components and controller) and I love it. It does exactly what it is supposed to do and is easy to use/set up. I think this new sub will match very well with the other Sonos gear and who cares about the specs, the sound is what matters. Personally I think that's a rather steep price for that sub but then Sonos gear in general is on the pricey side.
I played the demo through my computer desktop speakers (Swans M200 Mk2) and got a lot of desk-shaking bass from those. ;D I imagine for most music purposes these subs will sound really nice within the rest of a Sonos package.
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Post by Porscheguy on May 24, 2012 11:24:52 GMT -5
I would be a bit more enthusiastic about this sub if it was in the $300 range. Many here that have experience with subs realize how hard it is to overcome some simple design principles related to building a product that performs well. When a manufacturer is beating their chest about a product that lacks any reference to driver size, amplifier power and that when looking at the dimensions alone raises suspicion about its ability to deliver a "spine-curling, jaw-dropping, full body experience" that makes it an easy target. There are quite a few wireless subs on the market some of which are performance related as in the case of the HSU ULS-15 wireless sub. Although you cannot fit it under a couch it's dimensions are not huge has pretty high WAF and it can deliver a true "full body experience" for both two channel and HT in almost any size room. It does cost $1100 but it is also a true subwoofer. Go out to Amazon and search keyword "wireless sub" you will find many competing products from JBL, Polk, Klipsch and Yamaha all for less than $300 shipped are easy to use and do not require a custom installer. You are spot on when you say this sub is not geared for the typical member of this site. Why, because we are fundamentally looking for audio and video gear that delivers high performance per dollar. And although I really hope this product can deliver that the odds are greatly stacked against it. You miss the point though. It streams the Sonos music signal, no other sub can do that. Like I keep saying, its meant to work with the Sonos system - it integrates with it. Depending on the speaker you choose (Play 3 or Play 5) it senses what it is and adjusts the high pass accordingly. Same with the ZP 120 Amp. It does the same thing. No, this thing is cool.. As for "defying physics" ever heard this one? $799.00 Velodyne Mini Vee This compact sub is one of the best for music/2.1 systems. This 8" woofer sub has a 95% efficient, 2000 Watt Class D amplifier, that gives you fantastic sounding bass from 28 Hz–120 Hz. Dynamic Drive Control System, Kevlar-reinforced driver cone, selectable phase and adjustable low pass crossover deliver power and add precision to your low frequencies in a small footprint that can go just about anywhere your heart desires. ACCESSORIES AMPLIFIER 2000 watts Dynamic, 1000 watts RMS Power AUTO ON/OFF Yes CABINET DESIGN N/A COLOR Charcoal Pica DIMENSIONS: (H/W/D) 10.063" x 10.375" x 12.75" (27 x 26 x 33 cm) HIPASS CROSSOVER 80 Hz (6 dB/octave) LOPASS CROSSOVER 40-120 Hz (12 dB octave intial, 48 dB octave ultimate) or bypass with Subwoofer Direct PHASE CONTROL 0, 180 Degrees REMOVABLE GRILLE Yes SHIPPING WEIGHT 33 lbs. (15 Kg) VOICE COIL 2.5" Dual Layer inside/outside wound WARRANTY (N. AM.) Two years (electronics & drivers - parts & labor) Attachments:
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on May 24, 2012 11:28:42 GMT -5
re: the Mini-Vee. It's pretty amazing sounding. Another wonder of ELF design. I hope my old pals at Bag End are getting their royalties.
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Post by jdskycaster on May 24, 2012 12:15:54 GMT -5
I have heard of the Mini-V - impressive spec's and performance in a compact package. I also am a fan of Velodyne products as one of their F1200 servo's provided many years of HT enjoyment.
If the Sonos sub can match the performance of the velo mini then I humbly retract any negativity I have assuaged in it's direction.
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Post by Porscheguy on May 24, 2012 12:44:09 GMT -5
I have heard of the Mini-V - impressive spec's and performance in a compact package. I also am a fan of Velodyne products as one of their F1200 servo's provided many years of HT enjoyment. If the Sonos sub can match the performance of the velo mini then I humbly retract any negativity I have assuaged in it's direction. Its no big deal, you're entitle to your opinion. Interesting though that all the dissenters don't own any Sonos products. It's really good stuff. Their class D amps are some sort of a hybrid design. I run my Snell Type J7 reference monitors ($2500) with the ZP-120 once and a while and other than a lack of real of being able to play really, really loud (only 55wpc) Im amazed at that amps timbre, soundstage and deep bass. Its not cheap though at $500.00
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Post by Porscheguy on May 24, 2012 15:20:49 GMT -5
An email from Sonos today: Hi Ed, So, per usual, there isn’t a whole lot of information we publish due to proprietary technology- there are several patents pending on the SUB technology. But, what I am able to tell you is our unique bass extension algorithm allows low frequency response, as low as 25 Hz, far below what could be achieved without intelligent processing. This performance is achieved at nominal listening levels and we intelligently move up the roll-off at higher SPL’s to ensure the sound quality is maintained. As for the driver size, as I mentioned on the phone, there are two race-track drivers with an area of 150 cm2, which combined, are the approximate equivalent of a single 10” driver. It also may be interesting to note, the entire subwoofer is 100% Sonos designed- the drivers, amplifiers, mechanical structures, etc. Nothing is “off the shelf”. Once the SUB is released, it is likely there will be a reseller in your area that has it on display for demo, which will allow you to take it for a test drive, prior to purchase. Best, Lindsay What does Stereophile say: "Sonos’ senior PR manager, Eric Nielsen, cued James Blake’s “Limit to Your Love,” a low-frequency torture test. There seemed to be no limit to how low the SUB could go. When called for, it tickled our eardrums with tight, musical bass. And, as you can see from the picture above, the spare room had no shortage of reflective surfaces, but, aside from perhaps some lack of soundstage depth and image focus, the overall sound was visceral, exciting, and clean. “To-to-totally cool,” I trembled."www.stereophile.com/content/sonos-sub-sexy-smart-and-fun
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on May 24, 2012 15:24:48 GMT -5
FYI, my friend Dan Wiggins (former owner of Adire) designed this subwoofer for Sonos. He is their chief of transducer design these days. There are more interesting things coming from Sonos soon...
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Post by Porscheguy on May 24, 2012 16:06:05 GMT -5
FYI, my friend Dan Wiggins (former owner of Adire) designed this subwoofer for Sonos. He is their chief of transducer design these days. There are more interesting things coming from Sonos soon... The article says this guy was in charge........ "Designed by an engineering team led by Chris Kallai, formerly of Velodyne, the Sonos SUB uses two class-D amplifiers and two force-cancelling speakers in a mirror-image array, intended to eliminate cabinet resonances and allow for easy, versatile placement"
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on May 24, 2012 16:16:23 GMT -5
I'll ask him what the relationship is.
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jamrock
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Post by jamrock on May 24, 2012 16:47:34 GMT -5
Why would anyone commit to buying this gizmo when there are no specs available to even make a base judgment? We are committing on the reputation of the company only? Is Ferrari capable of making a lemon? And we dare to argue that our emotions are not involved in our choices. Geesh! ;D How many people are on the XMC-1 waiting list to buy a processor that doesn't even have a prototype yet let alone "specs"? Your a strange dude there Jammy. Emotion? Its all about emotion. Thats what drives this whole industry[/i]. Sonos has a stellar reputation for beautifully made, great performing products and are envied in the industry for their success, performance and top notch reliability. I have a fair amount of their stuff and it looks and sounds great. Its $700.00 Not $7000.00. If it's not a good product, send it back..... They have a 30 day return policy. Gee, where have we heard that before [/quote] Don't be too eager to be offended my friend. I did not say that it was not good. I implied that there is no published information by which you can make a decision to buy other than the reputation of the company. I believe that this is a reasonable position to take. I've been following Emotiva since December 2009 and joined June 2010. Since that time, I'm not aware of any component offered for sale or pre-order for which there were not performance information provided. Except the XSP-1, which I did not see. But it compared to the USP-1 (a stellar pre/amp) and reported to be better. So, you have something to go on. The proposed features for the XMC-1 were revealed before the pre-order list began 3 years ago. it has been revised several times since and now we do have a product page. There is enough information for an audiophile to make a decision to buy. This new subwoofer is the first of its kind with no information provided: speakers sizes, power, extension, distortion, spl, etc. Nothing strange about me or my comments. Extremely rationale I might say ;D
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Post by Porscheguy on May 24, 2012 17:26:31 GMT -5
How many people are on the XMC-1 waiting list to buy a processor that doesn't even have a prototype yet let alone "specs"? Your a strange dude there Jammy. Emotion? Its all about emotion. Thats what drives this whole industry[/i]. Sonos has a stellar reputation for beautifully made, great performing products and are envied in the industry for their success, performance and top notch reliability. I have a fair amount of their stuff and it looks and sounds great. Its $700.00 Not $7000.00. If it's not a good product, send it back..... They have a 30 day return policy. Gee, where have we heard that before [/quote] Don't be too eager to be offended my friend. I did not say that it was not good. I implied that there is no published information by which you can make a decision to buy other than the reputation of the company. I believe that this is a reasonable position to take. I've been following Emotiva since December 2009 and joined June 2010. Since that time, I'm not aware of any component offered for sale or pre-order for which there were not performance information provided. Except the XSP-1, which I did not see. But it compared to the USP-1 (a stellar pre/amp) and reported to be better. So, you have something to go on. The proposed features for the XMC-1 were revealed before the pre-order list began 3 years ago. it has been revised several times since and now we do have a product page. There is enough information for an audiophile to make a decision to buy. This new subwoofer is the first of its kind with no information provided: speakers sizes, power, extension, distortion, spl, etc. Nothing strange about me or my comments. Extremely rationale I might say ;D [/quote] Did you even read what Stereophile said about it?? They were floored by its performance...... Look up a few posts
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Pauly
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Post by Pauly on May 24, 2012 17:53:01 GMT -5
When are you getting it, Ed?
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jamrock
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Post by jamrock on May 24, 2012 17:56:38 GMT -5
No. I have not read the Stereophile article. before I make any firm judgment on it, I will wait for a review from Audioholics or the review from another periodical less subjective than Stereophile. Quite likely, and as per usual, Stereophile has not provided any objective measurements to support the subjective opinion of the reviewer. But, Ill take a look nonetheless. Yea, to me, Stereophile is still a tweako cultist magazine from yesteryear.
Anyhow, I was responding to your opening new post of yesterday at 4:32pm. Not the subsequent post #35 today at 4:30pm
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Pauly
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Post by Pauly on May 24, 2012 18:01:41 GMT -5
Good grief jam, give it a rest. If you don't like it and have zero interest in it, then move on and stop raining on Ed's parade. It's not like he's going to stick this the sub in his HT in hopes of it being a world beater in low freq extension and SPL lol. Settle down man! It's ok!
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jamrock
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Post by jamrock on May 24, 2012 18:10:13 GMT -5
Good grief jam, give it a rest. If you don't like it and have zero interest in it, then move on and stop raining on Ed's parade. It's not like he's going to stick this the sub in his HT in hopes of it being a world beater in low freq extension and SPL lol. Settle down man! It's ok! The man asked me some questions. Do I have the right to respond as I see fit? "Listen to the dull & ignorant, for they too have their story" ;D
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