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Post by Jim on Mar 15, 2013 20:11:40 GMT -5
My amps are here, but with the plans I have I won't even be able to play with them until at least Wednesday. This situation has me VERY CONCERNED. There's no doubt in my mind Dark Ranger's amp is cycling (AUDIBLY! not "seemlessly") out of class A mode prematurely. I thought when they were building this it should be in a 3 RU chassis (still smaller than the XPA-1) and use the space for heatsinks. Although at the recorded temps that Dark Ranger is reporting, I think it should be staying in class A anyway. I think that cycling out of class A just by the click is an assumption? I don't realistically think that Dan/Lonnie would have put to market an amp that can only do Class A for a few minutes, idling, before it's done with class A. Unless there is some kind of manufacturing hiccup with the temp thresholds. Good thing to test: When you flip the switch from A to A/B -- do you hear a noise?
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Post by milt99 on Mar 15, 2013 20:27:26 GMT -5
To those of you that have received your amps, all you have to do is plug them in and wait a few minutes. Jim, it is not an assumption, imo, DR has measured the power draw at idle and it CHANGES after the "switch". Whether you hear a noise or not is irrelevant. Not to get all alarmist but it seems that someone from Emotiva should address DR's experience on this thread. The switch from Class A to A/B should be triggered by a threshold in the output of the amp and that's it. If protection circuitry is kicking in prematurely, that's a bug. If even close to accurate, the temps that DR measured on the heat sinks are nothing, approx. 100 degrees fahrenheit? Not really that hot especially considering the context.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2013 20:39:38 GMT -5
I was just about to say the same thing. I believe Dan and Lonnie should be addressing this as soon as they become aware.
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Post by brubacca on Mar 15, 2013 20:52:02 GMT -5
I have corresponded with DR and what a great guy. He really should call Emotiva tech support and refer them here to his issue. Sounds like malfunctioning thermal switch. Probably not designed that way.
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Post by milt99 on Mar 15, 2013 21:51:30 GMT -5
I have corresponded with DR and what a great guy. He really should call Emotiva tech support and refer them here to his issue. Sounds like malfunctioning thermal switch. Probably not designed that way. I agree, DR has done some exhaustive tests based on real data. I should've said this before. Thank you Dark Ranger for taking the time to provide revealing measurements. As Ren said to Stimpy, "You are one of the good ones".
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Post by Dark Ranger on Mar 15, 2013 22:02:14 GMT -5
Great info DR. Will be very interested to see if any of the T03P devices are running significantly warmer than the rest. The power consumption figures are right on the money as per Keith. If you start in class A/B and flick the switch do you hear the click? I am curious what the relay in the middle of the board is for. I hope it is not used for a bias transition. If I start in A/B mode, and then flip the switch to A mode, I do not hear any other clicks or noises except for the switch movement itself at the front panel. I have temperature measurements for the relay in the middle and a range of temperature measurements for the TO3P devices. See my next post. I think that cycling out of class A just by the click is an assumption? I don't realistically think that Dan/Lonnie would have put to market an amp that can only do Class A for a few minutes, idling, before it's done with class A. Unless there is some kind of manufacturing hiccup with the temp thresholds. Good thing to test: When you flip the switch from A to A/B -- do you hear a noise?As mentioned above, no noise when switching between the two Class options. The only indication I have that I'm in Class A or A/B is by watching the Furman ammeter/Kill-A-Watt stats. When I switch from A/B to A mode, power consumption increases from ~1 amp to ~2.5 amps. Otherwise, there is no visual indicator. I've been racking my brain for another explanation, but the only thing that makes sense to me is that the sensors are either throttling (way) down Class A power or moving to A/B mode due to temperature. I really cannot explain the decrease in current any other way. Then again, I didn't design the amplifier, so perhaps I'm missing something... I had a suggestion PMed to me a short time ago: try disconnecting the speaker and run the test again. I've just completed that test and there is no change. I disconnected the speaker cable AND the input cable. The only thing connected to the amp was the power cable. I ran the test the same way and got the click/power drop as expected. No change whether a speaker is attached or not.
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Post by Dark Ranger on Mar 15, 2013 22:21:44 GMT -5
Thanks. I'm trying to keep an objective head and provide as much data as possible for making better decisions. After this round of testing, I'm probably going to mentally shelve this "issue" and contact Emotiva on Monday. Perhaps I can talk with Lonnie and/or Keith and pick their brain on what I'm experiencing. My hope is that this is an isolated incident, but I'm not really convinced yet. OK, I removed the chassis cover to take additional measurements. This was quite an eye-opener. I repeated this test three times with a 5-minute cool down between tests (turned off the amp). All measurements were taken with a Fluke 62 MAX+ infrared thermometer with approximately +/- 1C accuracy in this temp range. The following temperatures were recorded with the chassis cover off.Left heatsink: ~128 F Left heatsink (center): 136 F (this is where two sections join up together) Left heatsink TO3P devices: 136 - 146 F (range) Right heatsink: ~128 F Right heatsink (center): 135 F (this is where two sections join up together) Right heatsink TO3P devices: 137 - 148 F Rear part of board, center area: 130 - 155 F Center hotspot: 167.8 F (highest temp recorded)Relay (black box): 132.7 F Front part of board, center area: 99-102 F Transformer: 108 - 119 F 90K uF capacitor bank: 88-94 F With the chassis cover removed, I was able to increase the time before getting a click to just over 9 minutes (compared to 4-6 minutes). These tests were performed with a "warm" amp with a 5-minute cool-down period between tests. Will be very interested to see if any of the T03P devices are running significantly warmer than the rest. I passed over each device, but did not focus on a specific one. Let me re-run the test and try to get an idea on which ones run hottest. EDIT: OK, here are the results from three separate tests. Once the click occurs, the temp on these devices drops fairly quickly, so I had to start taking measurements just before the clicks occurred. -------------------------------------------- Room ambient 73.5 F Left side TO3P devices (front to back) 1) ~134 F 2) ~142 F 3) ~145 F 4) ~145 F 5) ~144 F 6) ~146 F 7) ~144 F 8) ~140 F Right side TO3P devices (front to back) 1) ~135 F 2) ~138 F 3) ~140 F 4) ~141 F 5) ~144 F 6) ~144 F 7) ~143 F 8) ~142 F -------------------------------------------- EDIT: As an aside, the 1L runs pretty warm in A/B mode, so I'm wondering if it's biased like the XPA-1 instead of the other Emotiva amps. Based on the heat output in A/B mode, I just can't believe it does ~1 watt of Class A. In any case, the sound is magnificent.
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Post by Dark Ranger on Mar 15, 2013 23:43:30 GMT -5
Here is a pic of the areas I measured. I'm sure I'll win an award for my Paint skills. Legend:Heatsink (center): YELLOW (also measured ends of heatsinks which are outside the frame) Primary TO3P devices: MAGENTAFront part of board, center area: BLUERear part of board, center area: BLUECenter hotspot: REDRelay (black box): GREEN
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Post by garbulky on Mar 16, 2013 0:55:21 GMT -5
All I can think is that either it's the thermal regulator kicking in and it's either a design flaw or a single malfunctioning amp. OR, it simply required that much power to somehow get the devices upto charge and then dropped off though that doesnt explain why there is only a relatively small draw of power at 35 watts class a mode afterwards the click (isnt class a always on at full power when active in the xpa-1 L until the thermal/watt limit?) OR ..... It's working perfectly in class A mode. Our assumptions are just wrong
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Post by davidas6350 on Mar 16, 2013 3:32:32 GMT -5
It's working perfectly in class A mode. Our assumptions are just wrong Is there a chance that it needs to warm-up in the first few minutes (I heard some amps sound best if properly warmed-up) and hence the initial higher current draw, then it switched or "click" to normal mode in either Class A or A/B (whatever the front switch is set)? Maybe... just maybe, the the lower current readings that DR measured is the normal power usage of Class A for this amp.
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Post by Jim on Mar 16, 2013 6:16:58 GMT -5
Dumb question - but has all of the testing been done with the amp idle (no input)?
If there IS a signal, does it still click at the same time/temp?
I could easily see some powersave mode..... There is no reason for it to sit there in Class A with no signal indefinitely.
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Post by davidas6350 on Mar 16, 2013 6:35:29 GMT -5
^ Somewhere on this thread Dark Ranger mentioned he played some music and the results are the same.
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Post by ocezam on Mar 16, 2013 8:05:18 GMT -5
Thanks. I'm trying to keep an objective head and provide as much data as possible for making better decisions. After this round of testing, I'm probably going to mentally shelve this "issue" and contact Emotiva on Monday. Perhaps I can talk with Lonnie and/or Keith and pick their brain on what I'm experiencing. My hope is that this is an isolated incident, but I'm not really convinced yet. I feel pretty sure they've read this. Dan, Lonnie, and Keith have been all over this thread in the past week. I doubt if they'd quit checking in on the day people start receiving their amps. Were I in their shoes, and read these last couple pages, I'd run down to the warehouse and grab a couple amps to test before I made a public comment. Time will tell weather this is an isolated incident or widespread, but I'm not optimistic. Dark Ranger, thanks for all your hard work! ...
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Post by brubacca on Mar 16, 2013 8:33:57 GMT -5
I have this mental picture of Dan and Lonnie tearing into a few random boxes and testing them out over the weekend.
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Post by ocezam on Mar 16, 2013 11:28:34 GMT -5
I have this mental picture of Dan and Lonnie tearing into a few random boxes and testing them out over the weekend. I've known of him doing it before. I had (have) a compatibility issue with the ET-3 and my XDA-2. Lonnie took a couple samples to the "lab" and was able to duplicate my problem. He never found a cure though.
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Post by Jim on Mar 16, 2013 12:36:19 GMT -5
I feel pretty sure they've read this. Dan, Lonnie, and Keith have been all over this thread in the past week. I doubt if they'd quit checking in on the day people start receiving their amps. Were I in their shoes, and read these last couple pages, I'd run down to the warehouse and grab a couple amps to test before I made a public comment. Time will tell weather this is an isolated incident or widespread, but I'm not optimistic. Regardless, I'm sure Emotiva will make it right. They aren't any reasons for them not to. So far we have 1 amp in the wild on here? I imagine some have read the posts, despite the fact that this isn't a formal support venue. Hopefully there will be more information after someone has a chance to actually talk to Emotiva on the phone (Or we see Dan/Lonnie/Keith chime in -- it is the weekend though). I'm only saying... there isn't any reason to be a pessimist. Everybody was freaking out about the XDA-2 when it came out and it having issues with some USB ports, they fixed that quickly. No reason to panic..
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Post by ocezam on Mar 16, 2013 12:57:05 GMT -5
I feel pretty sure they've read this. Dan, Lonnie, and Keith have been all over this thread in the past week. I doubt if they'd quit checking in on the day people start receiving their amps. Were I in their shoes, and read these last couple pages, I'd run down to the warehouse and grab a couple amps to test before I made a public comment.
Time will tell weather this is an isolated incident or widespread, but I'm not optimistic. Regardless, I'm sure Emotiva will make it right. They aren't any reasons for them not to. So far we have 1 amp in the wild on here?
I imagine some have read the posts, despite the fact that this isn't a formal support venue. Hopefully there will be more information after someone has a chance to actually talk to Emotiva on the phone (Or we see Dan/Lonnie/Keith chime in -- it is the weekend though).
I'm only saying... there isn't any reason to be a pessimist. Everybody was freaking out about the XDA-2 when it came out and it having issues with some USB ports, they fixed that quickly. No reason to panic..
I'm not panicking. I have no problem sending these back to them if they aren't as advertised. This isn't a DAC however. The problem won't be cured with a software patch most likely. So far we have 1 amp in the wild on here?
Yeah. So far we're batting 1000 ...
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Mar 16, 2013 13:17:21 GMT -5
ocezam - I know you said you would not have time to listen to them until at least Wednesday, but how about unboxing 1 and plugging it in...see if you here the "click" at the ~5 minutes...?
Mark
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Post by milt99 on Mar 16, 2013 13:21:33 GMT -5
ocezam - I know you said you would not have time to listen to them until at least Wednesday, but how about unboxing 1 and plugging it in...see if you here the "click" at the ~5 minutes...? Mark Yes, please.
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Post by ocezam on Mar 16, 2013 13:30:19 GMT -5
ocezam - I know you said you would not have time to listen to them until at least Wednesday, but how about unboxing 1 and plugging it in...see if you here the "click" at the ~5 minutes...? Mark I'm gonna try to find time to do that. Right now I'm building an 18" sub in the garage for my theater. I keep checking this thread every time I have a minute. ...
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