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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2013 11:16:19 GMT -5
It looks like Emo is on top of this, good on 'em!
However, I must comment on something that several members, and an Emo staff member, have said: When the amp transitioned from Class A to Class AB operation, there was *no* difference in the sound. Wow. So what, exactly, is the point of paying extra for Class A circuitry if there is no audible difference?
You *do* buy some street cred by being able to announce that you have a Class A amp, but that is about the only benefit that comes to my mind. Perhaps someone could edumacate me???
-RW-
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Post by Jim on Mar 19, 2013 11:19:09 GMT -5
You *do* buy some street cred by being able to announce that you have a Class A amp, but that is about the only benefit that comes to my mind. Perhaps someone could edumacate me??? -RW- I don't know if you saw my other thread - some people say that they can hear the difference: emotivalounge.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=amps&action=display&thread=29563Me? I've never had a chance to compare. I suspect the 1L sounds so good, it would be really hard to hear it. I'm all for double blind tests, though. For fun or education.
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guitarforlife
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Just another busy day in Northern Wisconsin.
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Post by guitarforlife on Mar 19, 2013 11:19:57 GMT -5
I do not have a dog in this fight. But have been paying close attention to it since I'm going to buy new amps soon.
I guess the thing holding me back is I'm waiting to see what the new tube products may be.
But ALL company's have product trouble from time to time. I mean look at all the auto recalls in the resent past.
The thing is these things happen. IMHO it is how the company handles it after the problem arises. And I would say Emotiva has handled it quite well.
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Post by monkumonku on Mar 19, 2013 11:29:47 GMT -5
It looks like Emo is on top of this, good on 'em! However, I must comment on something that several members, and an Emo staff member, have said: When the amp transitioned from Class A to Class AB operation, there was *no* difference in the sound. Wow. So what, exactly, is the point of paying extra for Class A circuitry if there is no audible difference? You *do* buy some street cred by being able to announce that you have a Class A amp, but that is about the only benefit that comes to my mind. Perhaps someone could edumacate me??? -RW- Not to disparage the XPA-1L but I've wondered the same thing myself. Sound-wise, how much difference is one going to hear between class A versus A/B? I realize audio is often a matter of subtleties but then often our quest for the right side of these subtleties makes the end the equipment and not enjoyment of the music. I can just imagine sitting there listening to something but being distracted wondering if what you are listening to is pure class A or has it switched to A/B? ;D I'm sure Emo will get this clicking issue resolved and I am also sure that the XPA-1L will turn out to be an excellent product but as far as dropping an excellent A/B class amp such as anything from the rest of the Emo line to buy an XPA-1L - is there really an audible payoff?
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Post by Jim on Mar 19, 2013 11:32:18 GMT -5
I'm sure Emo will get this clicking issue resolved and I am also sure that the XPA-1L will turn out to be an excellent product but as far as dropping an excellent A/B class amp such as anything from the rest of the Emo line to buy an XPA-1L - is there really an audible payoff? Aren't we all chasing the perfect setup, though? (within reason) People spend fortunes on inaudible things like wiring, trying to achieve the "perfect" system". I don't have any plans to trade my XPA-1s in favor of the XPA-1L, though. I like the XPA-1 too much. I'd definitely consider a pair of XPA-1L for a dedicated stereo system though..
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2013 11:33:11 GMT -5
Well, the folks who declared that they preferred Class A were comparing different amps in different systems - a completely invalid observation.
This member pretty much nailed it:
>> I think the poll is flawed (though I voted yes). When you listen to a Class A amp you're not just listening to the "class", but all the other design criteria, construction, and parts as well. So you compare a Pass Labs or Threshold Class A amp with an Emotiva A/B amp and say you like the Pass design better, well to me the experiment is flawed because there are too many other variables.
The interesting thing is that the XPA-1L will be one of the few times you can actually compare the "class" of an amp with other things being equal. <<
I agree. Except that when you make the transition, you are now outputting more power. And any serious A-B test will level-match to within 0.1db in order to try and eliminate the "louder sounds better" bias.
In any event, it seems that those who have *intently* listened to their XPA-1Ls making the A to AB transition have reported no sound quality difference between Class A and Class AB operation. This is a testament to the quality of Emo's Class AB implementation.
But it would also lead me to discount the so-called benefits of Class A operation and to stick with an AB design thus getting higher power output and much less heat generation for less money spent...
-RW-
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Post by Jim on Mar 19, 2013 11:35:36 GMT -5
But it would also lead me to discount the so-called benefits of Class A operation and to stick with an AB design thus getting higher power output and much less heat generation for less money spent... -RW- I think what might be so "significant" about the 1L though, might be it's price point. At $700 for a capable class A amp, it might be affordable enough for people who want to try it to do so. It's not a waste of money -- even if Class A isn't your cup of tea. I'd be curious to hear more listening reports after the transition is fixed. Would give some more time to really compare A vs A/B. Not that I'm expecting people to really tell, it would just give a larger sampling size.
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Post by zekeblue on Mar 19, 2013 12:57:35 GMT -5
In the same vein as too many variables comment above...... Hearing the difference in something like A vs A/B is also dependent on the quality of the other equipment. If you are playing CDs in a basic Sony BDP using analog outs and have some Best Buy $200 speakers, you won't hear a difference. If you get up to quality equipment throughout, you very well may. The sound is greatly influenced by the weakest link in the chain.
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Post by chaosrv on Mar 19, 2013 14:14:39 GMT -5
And the weakest link in the chain is usually the listener.
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Post by Jim on Mar 19, 2013 14:20:49 GMT -5
And the weakest link in the chain is usually the listener. I'd agree, but based on a number of studies that I've read, statistically, people are generally capable of distinguishing between speakers that sound bad (ie, poor off axis performance, non-flat FR) and ones that perform well. I think given a large enough sample size, you can get some statistical significance regarding what IS better. Dr. Floyd Toole has done some interesting research with regards to speaker testing. However, it all depends on what's being tested... A vs A/B might not yield anything significant, even given a large, double blind test. I'm a firm believer that some people do have golden ears...... and to some degree, that's due to training (listeners can be trained), and due to hearing that's not been abused. I'm getting OT, but Harman has a cool app for training listeners seanolive.blogspot.com/2009/05/harmans-how-to-listen-new-listener.html. It gets tough as you get into higher levels! I won't deny that some of the appeal of Class A is bragging rights. I don't think there is any reason to deny it ;D
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cgolf
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Post by cgolf on Mar 19, 2013 15:08:52 GMT -5
It looks like Emo is on top of this, good on 'em! However, I must comment on something that several members, and an Emo staff member, have said: When the amp transitioned from Class A to Class AB operation, there was *no* difference in the sound. Wow. So what, exactly, is the point of paying extra for Class A circuitry if there is no audible difference? You *do* buy some street cred by being able to announce that you have a Class A amp, but that is about the only benefit that comes to my mind. Perhaps someone could edumacate me??? -RW- Not to disparage the XPA-1L but I've wondered the same thing myself. Sound-wise, how much difference is one going to hear between class A versus A/B? I realize audio is often a matter of subtleties but then often our quest for the right side of these subtleties makes the end the equipment and not enjoyment of the music. I can just imagine sitting there listening to something but being distracted wondering if what you are listening to is pure class A or has it switched to A/B? ;D I'm sure Emo will get this clicking issue resolved and I am also sure that the XPA-1L will turn out to be an excellent product but as far as dropping an excellent A/B class amp such as anything from the rest of the Emo line to buy an XPA-1L - is there really an audible payoff? And even if someone does hear a difference, so what?? What does that mean? What is the difference they are hearing? Is it really substantial enough to make a difference? And if it does make a difference, what is that difference? I'm just asking questions to myself because I really wanted to buy a pair of 1Ls but now I'm not sure why I want to. It might be more because $1400 for a pair of monos is darn good and not because it's a class A/AB amp.
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Post by monkumonku on Mar 19, 2013 15:25:16 GMT -5
Not to disparage the XPA-1L but I've wondered the same thing myself. Sound-wise, how much difference is one going to hear between class A versus A/B? I realize audio is often a matter of subtleties but then often our quest for the right side of these subtleties makes the end the equipment and not enjoyment of the music. I can just imagine sitting there listening to something but being distracted wondering if what you are listening to is pure class A or has it switched to A/B? ;D I'm sure Emo will get this clicking issue resolved and I am also sure that the XPA-1L will turn out to be an excellent product but as far as dropping an excellent A/B class amp such as anything from the rest of the Emo line to buy an XPA-1L - is there really an audible payoff? And even if someone does hear a difference, so what?? What does that mean? What is the difference they are hearing? Is it really substantial enough to make a difference? And if it does make a difference, what is that difference? I'm just asking questions to myself because I really wanted to buy a pair of 1Ls but now I'm not sure why I want to. It might be more because $1400 for a pair of monos is darn good and not because it's a class A/AB amp. As often happens in the world of audio, it matters not so much what the difference is between products, but that you come up with the right reason to buy something. ;D So when you say you are "not sure why I want to," that really means you just haven't figured out your final reason for buying them yet. I bet when they get this click snag resolved, you are right - $1,400 for a pair of monos with that kind of power that operate in class A (whether or not you can hear the difference) is a darn good price - very favorable compared to other brands that are strictly A/B. Just figure out your final reason and then buy. ;D And by the way, did you decide on your next set of speakers yet?
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Post by GreenKiwi on Mar 19, 2013 15:26:26 GMT -5
I agree. Except that when you make the transition, you are now outputting more power. And any serious A-B test will level-match to within 0.1db in order to try and eliminate the "louder sounds better" bias. I think flipping the switch just changes the bias points, not the total gain. In both cases you have access to the full power by entering a/b mode. But with it set the class a operation, it stays in class a mode for all of the first 35w Switching shouldn't change the output gain so it should be a valid and easy test to perform. It seems like most people's XPA-1Ls were moving to class a/b mode after 5-10 minutes, so it may be that most people weren't actually able to operate their systems in class a mode for any length of time to perform a comparison. Not saying the results are one way or the other. Just looking forward to hearing about it after people get theirs back and running properly.
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Post by Cory Cooper on Mar 19, 2013 15:29:30 GMT -5
I'm a firm believer that some people do have golden ears...... and to some degree, that's due to training (listeners can be trained), and due to hearing that's not been abused. I'm getting OT, but Harman has a cool app for training listeners seanolive.blogspot.com/2009/05/harmans-how-to-listen-new-listener.html. It gets tough as you get into higher levels I downloaded the Harman How to Listen software...very interesting and I can't stop using it. Nice cure for a boring afternoon during a light snow. C
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cgolf
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Post by cgolf on Mar 19, 2013 15:52:35 GMT -5
And even if someone does hear a difference, so what?? What does that mean? What is the difference they are hearing? Is it really substantial enough to make a difference? And if it does make a difference, what is that difference? I'm just asking questions to myself because I really wanted to buy a pair of 1Ls but now I'm not sure why I want to. It might be more because $1400 for a pair of monos is darn good and not because it's a class A/AB amp. As often happens in the world of audio, it matters not so much what the difference is between products, but that you come up with the right reason to buy something. ;D So when you say you are "not sure why I want to," that really means you just haven't figured out your final reason for buying them yet. I bet when they get this click snag resolved, you are right - $1,400 for a pair of monos with that kind of power that operate in class A (whether or not you can hear the difference) is a darn good price - very favorable compared to other brands that are strictly A/B. Just figure out your final reason and then buy. ;D And by the way, did you decide on your next set of speakers yet? ;D ;D We really usually don't have a valid reason for buying new products. Oh we may rationalize and if we do that long enough, it really does become a valid reason to us. Hey, I'm fine with that!!! ;D That's how I operate............. alot of the time. No speakers yet. Want to sell the Axioms first. Have pretty much settled on the Ascends with the RAAL. A second option would be the PSB T2s if I could find a used pair for about the price of the Ascends. Just can't pull the trigger for that much money with the Axioms still sitting in my house. Also should I spend that much money right now with another sitter in the other house.
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Post by monkumonku on Mar 19, 2013 15:55:02 GMT -5
As often happens in the world of audio, it matters not so much what the difference is between products, but that you come up with the right reason to buy something. ;D So when you say you are "not sure why I want to," that really means you just haven't figured out your final reason for buying them yet. I bet when they get this click snag resolved, you are right - $1,400 for a pair of monos with that kind of power that operate in class A (whether or not you can hear the difference) is a darn good price - very favorable compared to other brands that are strictly A/B. Just figure out your final reason and then buy. ;D And by the way, did you decide on your next set of speakers yet? ;D ;D We really usually don't have a valid reason for buying new products. Oh we may rationalize and if we do that long enough, it really does become a valid reason to us. Hey, I'm fine with that!!! ;D That's how I operate............. alot of the time. No speakers yet. Want to sell the Axioms first. Have pretty much settled on the Ascends with the RAAL. A second option would be the PSB T2s if I could find a used pair for about the price of the Ascends. Just can't pull the trigger for that much money with the Axioms still sitting in my house. Also should I spend that much money right now with another sitter in the other house. Well I know the great majority of the time I've got no valid reason to get new stuff. ;D What do you mean by "another sitter in the other house?"
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cgolf
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Post by cgolf on Mar 19, 2013 15:59:18 GMT -5
Just think about it. ;D
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Post by sheepdog02 on Mar 19, 2013 17:11:08 GMT -5
I get the same noise from both of my XPA-1Ls as well. It only happens if I leave them off for a serveral hours, and happens even when nothing else is connected to the amp other than my front speaker(s). After about 20-30 seconds the noise slowly gets quieter until it goes away completely. It seems like once they have warmed up for a few minutes, if I power them off, I do not hear this noise. Took a quick video of it and uploaded it to dropbox. I sent that info off to emotiva as well to make sure we get a fix for that as it appears that I am not the only one with this issue. www.dropbox.com/s/yfcamq5jtmj9mo9/2013-03-18%2016.49.44.mp4Emotiva definitely has great customer support! I boxed my xpa-1l's back up and will be sending them back soon. I wish i could listen to them more but one of the xpa-1l's has suffered something more than prematurely switching from class a to class a/b. One of the two suddenly started emitting a very loud high pitch screaming type sound. I shut it off immediately waited a while turned it back on and still very loud screaming sound. I switched all connections to the other xpa1-l and all was fine. Switched connections back to the "screaming xpa-1l and it still emitted the horrible high pitch scream. I then tried switching into balanced with the rear switch and it was still doing it. I then disconnected the input completely and even with no source going into it it still "screamed." Anyway there is definitely something else wrong with that unit. I used it about 8 hours until that happened. I'm sure Emotiva will resolve the issues with these amps! Customer service was super fast and very polite! I will be a lifetime customer! Sh*t happens sometimes i guess, but i am glad i was able to still sample these amps. After all this said they really did sound terrific before the one xpa1-l went bad. Both amps also suffered from the premature switching from a to a/b.
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Post by garbulky on Mar 19, 2013 17:18:01 GMT -5
I get the same noise from both of my XPA-1Ls as well. It only happens if I leave them off for a serveral hours, and happens even when nothing else is connected to the amp other than my front speaker(s). After about 20-30 seconds the noise slowly gets quieter until it goes away completely. It seems like once they have warmed up for a few minutes, if I power them off, I do not hear this noise. Took a quick video of it and uploaded it to dropbox. I sent that info off to emotiva as well to make sure we get a fix for that as it appears that I am not the only one with this issue. www.dropbox.com/s/yfcamq5jtmj9mo9/2013-03-18%2016.49.44.mp4Emotiva definitely has great customer support! I boxed my xpa-1l's back up and will be sending them back soon. I wish i could listen to them more but one of the xpa-1l's has suffered something more than prematurely switching from class a to class a/b. One of the two suddenly started emitting a very loud high pitch screaming type sound. I shut it off immediately waited a while turned it back on and still very loud screaming sound. I switched all connections to the other xpa1-l and all was fine. Switched connections back to the "screaming xpa-1l and it still emitted the horrible high pitch scream. I then tried switching into balanced with the rear switch and it was still doing it. I then disconnected the input completely and even with no source going into it it still "screamed." Anyway there is definitely something else wrong with that unit. I used it about 8 hours until that happened. I'm sure Emotiva will resolve the issues with these amps! Customer service was super fast and very polite! I will be a lifetime customer! Sh*t happens sometimes i guess, but i am glad i was able to still sample these amps. After all this said they really did sound terrific before the one xpa1-l went bad. Both amps also suffered from the premature switching from a to a/b. Oh geez, that's way worse than the A/ AB issue. Hopefully both issues are fixed on the release.
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Post by Dark Ranger on Mar 19, 2013 18:18:18 GMT -5
Emotiva definitely has great customer support! I boxed my xpa-1l's back up and will be sending them back soon. I wish i could listen to them more but one of the xpa-1l's has suffered something more than prematurely switching from class a to class a/b. One of the two suddenly started emitting a very loud high pitch screaming type sound. I shut it off immediately waited a while turned it back on and still very loud screaming sound. I switched all connections to the other xpa1-l and all was fine. Switched connections back to the "screaming xpa-1l and it still emitted the horrible high pitch scream. I then tried switching into balanced with the rear switch and it was still doing it. I then disconnected the input completely and even with no source going into it it still "screamed." Anyway there is definitely something else wrong with that unit. I used it about 8 hours until that happened. I'm sure Emotiva will resolve the issues with these amps! Customer service was super fast and very polite! I will be a lifetime customer! Sh*t happens sometimes i guess, but i am glad i was able to still sample these amps. After all this said they really did sound terrific before the one xpa1-l went bad. Both amps also suffered from the premature switching from a to a/b. I get the same noise from both of my XPA-1Ls as well. It only happens if I leave them off for a serveral hours, and happens even when nothing else is connected to the amp other than my front speaker(s). After about 20-30 seconds the noise slowly gets quieter until it goes away completely. It seems like once they have warmed up for a few minutes, if I power them off, I do not hear this noise. Took a quick video of it and uploaded it to dropbox. I sent that info off to emotiva as well to make sure we get a fix for that as it appears that I am not the only one with this issue. www.dropbox.com/s/yfcamq5jtmj9mo9/2013-03-18%2016.49.44.mp4Oh man, that's not a pleasing sound. I noticed the 1L is now listed as "Unavailable" on the product page. Best of luck to everyone involved in resolving these issues. Hopefully the buzzing/screeching can be addressed as well. There must have been some serious monkeys armed with serious wrenches somewhere in this first production run. If this was in Germany, somebody would be shot at dawn. I've talked with Nick K and arranged for sending back my 1L until a replacement unit can be shipped to me at some point. I just want to shout out to everyone at Emotiva for handling this unfortunate (and unexpected) stroke of bad luck in such a great way. This kind of customer attention and service is what keeps your customers and helps gain new ones. Thank you, Dan. I'll be right here waiting patiently. After all, I've waited 6+ months for this amp, what's a little bit more time?
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