bootman
Emo VIPs
Typing useless posts on internet forums....
Posts: 9,358
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Post by bootman on May 7, 2013 17:48:29 GMT -5
Well if you want analog out and SACD/DVD-A your only choice is OPPO. If you can afford it the 105 is the best with analog out.
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Post by sergeantynot on May 7, 2013 18:29:59 GMT -5
^ +1. Agreed.
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Post by billmac on May 7, 2013 18:31:57 GMT -5
Sarge, Not to be argumentative but your earlier post says: That's not quite the fairest comparison, especially since I wouldn't imagine you would notice any difference at all between the 83se, 95, and 105.So I interpreted your post exactly as it was written. Whether or not one can hear differences between the 83SE, the 95 or the 105 is a totally different matter. To be quite honest you are getting hung up on the DAC. You are missing the other factors of the Oppo players such as the implementation of the DAC and the analog stage. If you read the link I posted earlier the 103's DAC implementation and analog stage were tweaked to compare closely with the mod that was available for the 93 by NuForce. So the 103's analog section is very close in comparison to that of the 83SE. There was slight progressions in SQ with the 95 and then more so with the 105. Whether one can hear those progressions or feels they are worth the cost is another matter altogether . Bill
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Post by eclypse on May 7, 2013 18:58:38 GMT -5
Seems that after reading some reviews on amazon that people liked the 95 more then the 105.
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Post by sergeantynot on May 7, 2013 19:07:26 GMT -5
Sarge, Not to be argumentative but your earlier post says: That's not quite the fairest comparison, especially since I wouldn't imagine you would notice any difference at all between the 83se, 95, and 105.So I interpreted your post exactly as it was written. Whether or not one can hear differences between the 83SE, the 95 or the 105 is a totally different matter. To be quite honest you are getting hung up on the DAC. You are missing the other factors of the Oppo players such as the implementation of the DAC and the analog stage. If you read the link I posted earlier the 103's DAC implementation and analog stage were tweaked to compare closely with the mod that was available for the 93 by NuForce. So the 103's analog section is very close in comparison to that of the 83SE. There was slight progressions in SQ with the 95 and then more so with the 105. Whether one can hear those progressions or feels they are worth the cost is another matter altogether . Bill Hey Bill, I will attempt to be even more clear since this seems to be getting more confusing. When I originally asked many posts ago if you tested a 95/105 in your system, I wanted to see how that directly compared to your current 103 (or to another Oppo with a non Sabre DAC), not to an 83se or 105. You then mention testing a 95 directly to an 83se. And as I am stating for the 3rd time, you are comparing apples to apples since the Sabre DACs are nearly identical in all 3 of those units, so I wouldn't expect any sonic differences at all. I also took a look at the Audioholics link you provided. I see no mention of the 83se being comparable to that of a 103, other than an improved DAC all around. Where again was this review posted? You yourself stated: "I just can not see how changes in DACs and amps can really make such large improvements in SQ". I would counter and say there must be a reason that the 95/105 continues to dominate every single review board in the home theater world. In the end, the entire purpose of the $700 upgrade of the 105 over the 103 is the DAC, so why not get "hung up" and analyze that more?
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Post by Gary Cook on May 7, 2013 19:27:01 GMT -5
Hi Bill, I have repeated this "demonstration" a number of times. My daughter (she plays saxophone) picked the lack of cymbals via the Denon instantly, "where did the cymbals go Dad?". A good friend of mine, he plays guitar, commented that something was missing when I switched to the Denon. When I went back to the XPA-5 he picked the cymbals as what was missing via the Denon. My daughter's boyfriend, he plays classical piano, picks up a lot of subtle differences in other music. He pointed out a few that I hadn't even noticed but could hear when he told me what to listen for. Whenever I get any new hifi gear we play the "can you hear the difference game". It's more specific than the "which sounds better game". We have to identify exactly what it is that is different, name the instrument etc. If it's a sound stage difference we require point references. I started it with my wife, way back, as a means of justifying regular upgrades, the kids just picked up on it and now it's a game for all the family to play. We do similar with vinyl versus CD versus lossless versus SACD, that's a whole lotta fun. Cheers Gary Hey Gary, I would not question any of what you posted above. My only question and it has been pretty much the same question I have asked in this thread. That question is when music is played at moderate levels what does the XPA-5 do that makes a specific aspect of the music (cymbals for example) stand out with more clarity? If the amps in the Denon and XPA-5 are amplifying the signal with no form of coloration then how can one sound so different? I could understand these differences if the discussion was about processors or preamps. But I just do not understand how an amp can change the SQ of music when played at levels below clipping. Bill Hi Bill, I'm not an electronics engineer so please excuse me if I can't offer technical reasoning. My observations (with the Denon to XPA-5 comparison) is that the majority of the differences occur when the amp is busy amplifying the main instrument/s and the minor (very minor) instrument doesn't quite get the amplification it should have. Maybe it's to do with the power supply, or more correctly the capacitors, having sufficient reserves to do both at once. Keeping in mind that the Denon drops around 25% of its wattage (120 to 93) when all channels are driven and the XPA-5 makes 200 (all channels driven). The better sound stage resolution I can only put down to superior design of the XPA-5 and superior components. Are they superior? I don't have the knowledge to determine the first, the latter I could do by comparing each component one by one and referencing their specifications. Even that might not tell the story as the total design may override the individual component's spec. Then there are the speakers, mine are rated at 125 watts continuous, so maybe the Denon's 93 watts isn't enough to drive them and they like/need the 200 watts from the XPA-5. Cheers Gary
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Post by billmac on May 7, 2013 19:27:09 GMT -5
Sarge, Now you are being clear as now you mention a comparison of the 83SE or the 95 to the 103. The part that was missing was mention of the 103. I did not own the 95 when I had the 103 and never bothered to compare the 83SE to the 103 as I sold the 83SE. The DACs in the 83SE, 95 and 105 are similar but not indentical. Also what could be an even bigger factor is how those DACs are implemented. I do not know if they are do you? If all three players have slightly different versions of the Sabre DAC and if each implemation is different they might or might not sound similar. There is no mention of a 83SE and 103 comparison. But my assumption is that if the NuForce modded 93 compared closely to the 83SE (which I have read it did) then the 83SE and the 103 could be close in overall SQ. Why as you say the 95/105 "dominate every single review board in the home theater world." is beyond me. I would guess they are both very popular players. I don't doubt that some find SQ improvements with both players. But the degree of those SQ improvements might be vary from person to person. Bill
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Post by billmac on May 8, 2013 7:06:57 GMT -5
I posted the below in the XPA-5 and 4520 owners threads over at AVS. I wanted to get further thoughts on this topic being discussed here. As much as there are differing opinions in this thread the discussion has remained civil and respectful IMO . Below is a link to a thread over at the Emotiva Lounge. The thread is discussing the addition of an XPA-5 to a Denon 4520. The interesting part of the discussion are the thoughts that with the addition of the XPA-5 that overall SQ is improved. In that certain aspects of music have better clarity and that the soundstage is improved. It has been a very civil and respectful exchange of differing opinions. My main question is that if the volume levels are matched between using the 4520's amp section and then with the addition of the XPA-5 how does the SQ improve with just the addition of the XPA-5. Also how can one really do an accurate comparison when it takes a fair amount of time to add the XPA-5 or remove it for the comparison. I also asked if these differences happened at low to moderate volume levels and several in the discussion said that they heard SQ improvement at these volume levels as well.
So I would like to ask those in this thread what could the XPA-5 be doing to the signal to improve SQ in both clarity of specific instruments and improve the soundstage? I'm under the assumption that an amp like the XPA-5 should be transparent and not add anything to the signal or alter the SQ of the music one is listening to. But maybe I'm wrong in that assumption. With that I would like to know what in fact an external amp such as the XPA-5 could be doing to improve upon the SQ of the amp section of the 4520. I also would have to believe that the amp section in the 4520 is quite good and not lacking unless driven really hard with challenging speakers. So any thoughts on this discussion would be appreciated .www.avsforum.com/t/1232229/official-emotiva-xpa-5-owners-thread/1260#post_23291283www.avsforum.com/t/1430049/the-official-denon-avr-4520ci-thread/4320#post_23291297Bill
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fatone
Seeker Of Truth
Posts: 7
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Post by fatone on Jul 12, 2013 19:53:29 GMT -5
Being the OP, I had said I would do some tests with the 4520 and my B&W Speakers. It took me a while to setup everything because I was running speaker cables in walls and mounting TVs etc... So I finally had setup the 4520 and was about to do some tests, but decided to play some songs from my iPhone. That is when I found a problem with the 4520, the front/back USB/ipod connection wasn't working for any USB connected. So I ended up taking the Denon 4520 back to Best Buy and they are mailing me a new one! So my tests will have to wait another week and a half.
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Post by bderringer on Nov 13, 2014 10:07:21 GMT -5
Being the OP, I had said I would do some tests with the 4520 and my B&W Speakers. It took me a while to setup everything because I was running speaker cables in walls and mounting TVs etc... So I finally had setup the 4520 and was about to do some tests, but decided to play some songs from my iPhone. That is when I found a problem with the 4520, the front/back USB/ipod connection wasn't working for any USB connected. So I ended up taking the Denon 4520 back to Best Buy and they are mailing me a new one! So my tests will have to wait another week and a half. Hi Fatone! Well it's been a really long while and was wondering how your tests went with your new Denon? Thanks!
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