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Post by garbulky on Oct 10, 2018 11:16:18 GMT -5
So another quick visit to the B'zillas! This time the PA-1 amps were back in action. This time the treble brightness was gone. B'zilla mentioned he had it on for a day before trying and both of us agreed that the bright vivid sound wasn't quite there. The tone was back to being neutral rather than a bit too bright. However interestingly the bass started getting better. I got a more full sound from the Sonus Fabers than before it was able to hit lower and harder than before and with a more relaxed less compressed type of manner. It still wasn't quite there. But then again only a few speakers are in this room. I anticipate this was because of the SF woofers loosening up and due to the PA-1's slowly getting in to optimal operational condition.
Though the tone was neutral in this setup, this presents as a sound that's a bit laid back and not one that envelops you. So not necessarily ideal for the room. The room tends to do better with brighter electronics. I anticipate slight speaker position changes to help bring the sound out. However there was still some decent sound staging and quick dynamics going on. Overall the sound was impressive! It was at this point with the improved bass of the Sonus Faber's that I realized this could possibly be a significant improvement on the Axiom speakers being a little bit more composed in the bass frequencies.
Also the treble coloration I atttributed to the speakers was no longer there at this time. These seem to me like quality speakers. Overall a good effort from Sonus Faber. Still a bit north of what I can afford. If they were closer to the 3-4k mark, it might be closer to my realistic budget for an upgrade. But I think the build and the high quality finish of the speakers cause the price bump.
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Post by creimes on Oct 10, 2018 11:22:38 GMT -5
Everything you described is almost exactly what I'd expect with the exception of the poor bass response of the Sonus vs other speakers. When I first read about the lack of bass I figured it was a room response issue. Suck out around the 30-50 Hz range is common with many room dimensions and there's almost no way to control that. But then you said other speakers performed better down low. I wonder if it's the way Sonus voiced them (with muted deep bass response) to sound optimal to their standard consumer that doesn't do room treatments isolation/decoupling hardware since it's that deep bass that muddies the hell out of mid range. Just tossing out a what if. I've not heard this model but the other Sonus speakers I've heard were very natural sounding and while not lacking bass were certainly not what I'd call punchy and authorative in the bass dept. Also interesting to hear you found the 3rd gen XPA amps to be rolled off in the highs. I found them to be the exact opposite and tending toward bright but not offensively so. I also find them to make gobs of bass although I've only had them on 2 speakers. (JTR 212 and Legacy Aeris) Sure wish I was there for a listen. This type of comparative listening is really fun to do, particularly with good company. Scott
Interesting speculations... I'd contend that this was NOT a room response issue. Why? Because I used the Emotiva T2 speakers in EXACTLY the same positions, and the bass was bordering on excessive with the same amps & program material. The room itself is slightly live, but there are both absorbers and diffusers most everywhere. The only totally reflecting surfaces are the 9' sheetrock ceiling and the hardwood floor (controlled only with a rug). But assuming that the room (for better or worse) is a constant, other speakers still did significantly better in the bass than the SFs. I'd believe that the SF speakers were either designed for use with a sub or else intended for smaller rooms. Since their bass reticence was consistent through all three amplifiers we tried them with, I don't think it's electronics related. Cheers - Boom Could moving the Sonus speakers closer to the back wall help, every speaker needs to be setup differently ?? Chad P.S. wow those Sonus do look very very nice, I'm sure that has a lot to do with the overall price
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Post by creimes on Oct 10, 2018 11:24:19 GMT -5
So another quick visit to the B'zillas! This time the PA-1 amps were back in action. This time the treble brightness was gone. B'zilla mentioned he had it on for a day before trying and both of us agreed that the bright vivid sound wasn't quite there. The tone was back to being neutral rather than a bit too bright. However interestingly the bass started getting better. I got a more full sound from the Sonus Fabers than before it was able to hit lower and harder than before and with a more relaxed less compressed type of manner. It still wasn't quite there. But then again only a few speakers are in this room. I anticipate this was because of the SF woofers loosening up and due to the PA-1's slowly getting in to optimal operational condition. Though the tone was neutral in this setup, this presents as a sound that's a bit laid back and not one that envelops you. So not necessarily ideal for the room. The room tends to do better with brighter electronics. I anticipate slight speaker position changes to help bring the sound out. However there was still some decent sound staging and quick dynamics going on. Overall the sound was impressive! It was at this point with the improved bass of the Sonus Faber's that I realized this could possibly be a significant improvement on the Axiom speakers being a little bit more composed in the bass frequencies. Also the treble coloration I atttributed to the speakers was no longer there at this time. These seem to me like quality speakers. Overall a good effort from Sonus Faber. Still a bit north of what I can afford. If they were closer to the 3-4k mark, it might be closer to my realistic budget for an upgrade. But I think the build and the high quality finish of the speakers cause the price bump. I've seen used ones selling more in the range you described Chad
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Post by garbulky on Oct 10, 2018 11:42:26 GMT -5
Interesting speculations... I'd contend that this was NOT a room response issue. Why? Because I used the Emotiva T2 speakers in EXACTLY the same positions, and the bass was bordering on excessive with the same amps & program material. The room itself is slightly live, but there are both absorbers and diffusers most everywhere. The only totally reflecting surfaces are the 9' sheetrock ceiling and the hardwood floor (controlled only with a rug). But assuming that the room (for better or worse) is a constant, other speakers still did significantly better in the bass than the SFs. I'd believe that the SF speakers were either designed for use with a sub or else intended for smaller rooms. Since their bass reticence was consistent through all three amplifiers we tried them with, I don't think it's electronics related. Cheers - Boom Could moving the Sonus speakers closer to the back wall help, every speaker needs to be setup differently ?? Chad P.S. wow those Sonus do look very very nice, I'm sure that has a lot to do with the overall price Honestly I think in about a week the bass is going to open up nicely. Yeah the finish is really nice. Leather - don't ask me why!-, real wood, curved speakers, metal etc.
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Post by creimes on Oct 10, 2018 12:13:22 GMT -5
Could moving the Sonus speakers closer to the back wall help, every speaker needs to be setup differently ?? Chad P.S. wow those Sonus do look very very nice, I'm sure that has a lot to do with the overall price Honestly I think in about a week the bass is going to open up nicely. Yeah the finish is really nice. Leather - don't ask me why!-, real wood, curved speakers, metal etc. Why Leather... well hey it's an Italian company haha
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Post by boomzilla on Oct 10, 2018 13:29:53 GMT -5
...I may not have worded it as cogently as necessary to make that clear. I've long had a penchant for rambling... - Scott Quite to the contrary, Scott. I think your posts are models of clarity.
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Post by garbulky on Jun 29, 2019 19:43:16 GMT -5
We had the pleasure of a visit from Mrs. & Mr garbulky this afternoon, and they got to hear my first try at the RAIS concept (Redundant Array of Inexpensive Subwoofers). I expect that the Gar will comment in a thread of his own on his impressions, so I won't put words in his mouth. Mrs. Garbulky was a delight, as always. Nicer folks we've never met. Well once again my better half and I had a the great time to visit with Mr and Mrs B'zilla! And things were quite a bit different. Can you spot the differences? The speakers are the Klipsch RP 600M Reference (500 a pair). And most notably not 2, not 3, but FOUR subwoofers. All of them were different subwoofers too that were laid out in a stereo configuration with a pair for left and a pair for right. There was Velodyne, Rel (I think), Emotiva and another brand whose name escapes me. Sounds like a bad idea? (Spoiler alert - no it was fantastic). An Audio GD HE-1 preamp with regenerative class A power supply was also used. Finally possibly the star of the show was the custom modded set of Heathkit monoblock tube amps made by B'zilla himself. Yes it's those tiny things! Tube glow from that beautiful case. It should be noted that these weren't monoblock amps but integrated units previously included even a preamp stage. The guts were totally reduced in size with the preamp stages taken out and most of the parts were replaced with new replacements. The amps then were considered entry level diy kits at the time. But whatever happened turned them in to ridiculously good amps outperforming other good hefty tube amps that cost 4 grand that I've heard as well as my XPA-1 gen 2 monoblocks in certain aspects. What did it? I'm not sure even B'zilla knows! (But it needs to be bottled and the secrets sold!) So.... onto the sound It took me about ten seconds to decide instantly that B'zilla had frigging nailed it. That old magic from my previous experiences with these Heathkits was back - but in this iteration in Klipsch form! To tell you the truth I'm not the biggest fan of Klipsch. I find their cabinetry beautiful (as are these) but was never quite sold on the sound. Now however I had no reservations on the sound. The sound was simply excellent. Sometimes everything comes together just right. Four subs smoothing out room nodes adding to speed, weight, punch and slam, Audio GD HE-1 preamp producing an engrossing sound with excellent fullness and smoothness. The Heathkits just about stealing the show (as usual) by producing just utterly vivid hyper real yet extremely smooth coherent sound with an extremely wide holographic sonic bubble full of details. So there it was some of the best audio experiences I've had. By now, it's fair to say I've had several top notch experiences in audio far beyond what I thought was even possible when I first started. And this one still knocked my socks off. I would call this listening session the best of the 70's. Crimson and Clover by Tommy Jane was played. And my god what a knockout demonstration that was. EVERYTHING was laid out in huge detail and soundstage that simply got better and better. From large synth style isntruments and tube distortions to all kinds of interesting effects it was a showcase of everything the Heathkits and the setup as a whole could do. Excellent slam, weight coupled to delicacy and everything in between, I was in hog heaven. I kept saying "one more, and then I have to go" and of course stayed on until I realized I needed to tear myself away before I replayed all my favorite records. I can't describe just how good the sound was but to say if you've never heard a tube amp then it's everything you imagine with none of the drawbacks you associate like weak dynamics, rolled off treble, wooley bass, fuzzy sounding treble. Now add things that you didn't expect like a significantly larger soundstage and quickness and the ability to hear EVERYTHING going on. Now you got it! Well actually you don't, because unfortunately these tube amps are one of a kind! However it's also different from what the actual record sounds like. The difference is that it sounds SO good that you find yourself realizing that yes this is simply fantastic sound. B'zilla saying things like "I'm still dialing the bass in" and something about the tube amps, but I was too busy saying "nope this is it. It's nailed!" to hear what he was saying Meanwhile even my wife got in to it pulling songs from Tidal left and right and you could clearly see her grooving to the excellent sound. Her comments "The sound filled a wider space and the bass was bumpin. I enjoyed the sound. It was four times better!" Thanks again for a fantastic time!
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Post by boomzilla on Jun 29, 2019 21:15:53 GMT -5
The theory being tested here was that multiple subwoofers, in addition to providing a smoother room response, would NOT need to have exactly the same frequency response in order to provide good sound. Some of these subs used amplifier power to compensate for reduced cabinet volume. Three are forward-firing and one downward-firing. All are 10" models, but their frequency responses, bass extensions, and port tunings are all different. My guess was that with only two dissimilar subs, you might be able to hear the differences between the two, but with more than two subs playing simultaneously, the differences should average out. I'm convinced that I was right. These four dissimilar subwoofers from four different companies (Martin-Logan, Klipsch, Velodyne, and Emotiva) do a fine job together and neither I nor garbulky could hear any of the individual contributions of any single member of the quartet. Why do this at all? The first reason is because I'm profoundly lazy. I could do the "subwoofer crawl" around my room looking for the best position to place a single sub, but I've never bothered. Second - I'm cheap. To buy four identical subwoofers would almost certainly mean buying brand new and at relatively high cost. I bought these subs (mostly) at yard sales for prices ranging from $5 up to $150. The only new sub in the mix is the Martin-Logan 500, that I bought on clearance from Audio-Advisor. And the third (and probably most important) reason is that I'm contrary. I've been told that I couldn't get subwoofers from different companies to work smoothly together. I never believed that, and now the Redundant Array of Inexpensive Subwoofers idea seems to be perfectly functional. So big bucks may NOT be a necessity for honest, tactile, nimble, and detailed bass. Consider trying RAIS for yourself! Boomzilla
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Post by garbulky on Aug 7, 2019 18:58:39 GMT -5
I had the pleasure of a visit from garbulky last night - He wanted to hear the new Denafrips Aries DAC in my system. Rather than put words in his mouth, I'll let him tell the tale. But the comparison between my usual DAC (the Sabre one built into my Oppo 205) and the R2R Denafrips is instructive. When I get time away from work, I'll be doing a review of the Denafrips for the Secrets site. Hopefully it'll be soon. Boom This time on another one of my many visits to this wonderful family's casa, I got to experience the Denafrips DAC. Now evaluation is a bit tough as it was run through the (utterly fantastic) Heathkit tube amps. The Heathkits are dream tube amps imo. However, they aren't the most neutral things out there. Not a bad thing but it also means that it's hard to tease out what the Denafrips brings to the table. After some time, my conclusion was that in this particular setup, I could not really tell what positive difference the Denafrips had. The best I could get was that there was a touch of "vinyl" sound and warmth, with a little bit of rolled off highs. But it was slight and I really couldn't say if it was my imagination or if this was a good or bad thing. I will say that there have been better combinations with the Heathkits like the Oppo 205 direct. It was a nice looking DAC though. B'zilla also had a little "teaser" unit a large Paradigm subwoofer which he hadn't had a chance to hook up. I was curious how he was going to manage a 5 sub array. It would be interesting to see the results. I know the four sub array was beneficial. Thanks again for the good times!
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Post by boomzilla on Aug 7, 2019 21:21:26 GMT -5
Hi garbulky - Since you were last by, I've removed the Heathkit mono-block tube amps and substituted the Emotiva mono-block PA-1s. I've also dropped from a 4-sub system to a two (the 12" Paradigm and the 10" Velodyne). The results? Still not getting what I'd hoped for from the Denafrips. BUT - my next move will be to substitute the Emotiva T2 speakers for the JBL RP600M ones. I'm just looking for a combo that lets me hear what all the other Denafrips fanboys claim to have heard. It might also behoove me to download a manual for the Denafrips since the factory didn't include one in my box.
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Post by garbulky on Feb 8, 2020 23:12:49 GMT -5
Once again, I had a great time visitng the B'zilla's who are ever so kind and patient to host me at all times you can think of! So this time, what was really impressive is that B'zilla had among other things dual Airmotiv S15 subwoofers in his system. They were on stands and this meant the massive passive radiator was placed exactly at the upper woofer of the Emotiva T2 towers.
I wasn't expecting myself to be all that impressed by the S15's. B'zilla already had world class subwoofers in his system to great effect. The notable ones were the Powersound Audio XV15 which I feel the Airmotiv S15 was meant to compete with and the extremely impressive Powersound audio s3601. To my surprise the twin S15's did significantly better than the Powersound Audio XV15's which were no slouch at all. The S15 does not have a port and instead use a passive radiator cone. I also wasn't expecting all that much difference from Emotiva's Bas-x 12 inch subwoofers (of which he had dual versions).
The twin Emotiva S15's reached very low. They also had some serious tactile response. It was really quite impressive. The subs coupled to the room creating a pressurizing wave that was also very quick. I would say the PSA XV15's sounded a little looser while the Emotiva's felt tighter. The tactile sensation was also a little more pelasing than the single S3601. Now the S3601 may be able to go way (WAYYY) louder, but the Emotiva's were just belting it out, man! It didn't really matter because it wasn't short on power.
Either way, Emotiva has a hidden gem with the Emotiva S15's. Their $800 price imo is a steal and of course it's DEFINITELY recommended to have two. I don't think you would be able to have that same encompassing smooth bass field without it. Congratulations Emotiva on a really nice product! I would say this was some of the most impressive bass I've heard in his room! Imo this says all you need to know because B'zilla has had really fantastic subwoofers in his room before. Also another note .... the subwoofers are 95 POUNDS of B*LLS OUT FURY each! This results in a massive box. So yes, you are going to need space for it.
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Post by boomzilla on Feb 9, 2020 0:24:06 GMT -5
I fear that I may be tempting garbulky into his own personal "Spousal Disapproval Zone" by whetting his taste for subwoofers... His neighbors would probably voice some opinions as well. Although my initial impressions of the Airmotiv S-15 subs were not glowing (muddy, not flat enough, hard to integrate, etc.), I kept working with them. Things I've done to "tame" the subs in the room included: lifted the subs onto about 18" tall rolling equipment stands - The rollers allowed me to easily try different positions until I found some by trial and error that seemed to work really well in the room. The movement away from the floor changed the thumpiness of the subs and smoothed their in-room response somewhat. Lifting the 100-pound boxes onto the stands required some careful ergonomics to prevent back strain. moved the subs about 15" from the wall behind them - Getting the subs away from the second room boundary again smoothed the response even more. totally eliminated the upstream electronic crossover - In theory, elimination of the crossover had significantly negative consequences - Now the main satellite speakers (Emotiva T2 towers) have to reproduce the full audio spectrum down to their roughly 40 Hz. lower extension limit. The minimum low-pass frequency available on the S-15 subs is 60 Hz. This means that there is a 40-60 Hz. overlap between the satellites and the subs. This is audible in the room and results in some of the pressurization effect that garbulky noticed. I will eventually measure this at the listening position and apply some interim DSP equalization to smooth the response there, but for now... For the very first time in my room I actually heard and felt the 16 Hz. intro pedal tone of "Also Sprach Zarathustra." The "final solution" that I plan to use is an upstream analog electronic crossover after the preamplifier. The bass will roll off at 18 dB / octave, and the treble at 6 dB / octave. A modified Dahlquist DQ-LP1 will be the dividing network. I'll need to experiment to determine the best crossover frequency. I suspect that (without compensating equalization) the Airmotiv S-15 will not be happy trying to extend upward to 100 Hz. (my previous choice with other subs). But all this is speculation on my part. The DQ crossover currently has one channel out, and until I diagnose and repair it, I'm "crossoverless." Thanks, as always, to garbulky for his insightful suggestions & helpful comments and criticisms. Having him over is like having "Doctor Audio" do a free consultation and tune-up on my system every time! Boomzilla PS: My typical listening volume (for most all content) is but a fraction of garbulky's preferred level. Since my house is a detached structure, the available latitude for high volume is significantly wider than when one has common walls with neighbors. Some of the " garbulky visit" listening is done at lower volumes (closer to where I normally listen), but for "proof testing" of new equipment, garbulky likes to find the limits. So when the Airmotiv S-15 subs were on trial, we tested them all the way from quietly to eye-opening levels. The good news is that the higher levels did not overload the room with standing waves, nor did the subs ever sound stressed or distorted in the least by the high volumes. In fact, they sounded like they had a LOT more headroom that we weren't even using, and the T2 towers kept up without strain as well! So although the system can play very, very loudly in the room without causing negative effects, the thing I like best about the current system is its dynamics even at very low levels. I wasn't expecting that from the S-15 subs, but with each change that I made (away from the floor, and then away from the back wall), the subs seemed more and more dynamic at very low levels. This is exactly what I want from a sub because, as mentioned, most of my listening is done without too much volume. My wife, whose ears are more sensitive than mine, is easily overwhelmed by high volumes and so also appreciates the subtle performance of the S-15s at quieter volumes. The "quickness" and pitch definition of the bass is also excellent with the subs in their current positions. I might be able to refine that a tad more with some experimentation with the phase pot on the subs' plate amps, but maybe not. In any case, the positioning changes I've made with the Airmotiv S-15s have evaporated my initial "buyers regret" with the subs, and I now look forward to living with them for a long, long time!
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Post by davidl81 on Feb 9, 2020 8:36:41 GMT -5
I fear that I may be tempting garbulky into his own personal "Spousal Disapproval Zone" by whetting his taste for subwoofers... His neighbors would probably voice some opinions as well. Although my initial impressions of the Airmotiv S-15 subs were not glowing (muddy, not flat enough, hard to integrate, etc.), I kept working with them. Things I've done to "tame" the subs in the room included: lifted the subs onto about 18" tall rolling equipment stands - The rollers allowed me to easily try different positions until I found some by trial and error that seemed to work really well in the room. The movement away from the floor changed the thumpiness of the subs and smoothed their in-room response somewhat. Lifting the 100-pound boxes onto the stands required some careful ergonomics to prevent back strain. moved the subs about 15" from the wall behind them - Getting the subs away from the second room boundary again smoothed the response even more. totally eliminated the upstream electronic crossover - In theory, elimination of the crossover had significantly negative consequences - Now the main satellite speakers (Emotiva T2 towers) have to reproduce the full audio spectrum down to their roughly 40 Hz. lower extension limit. The minimum low-pass frequency available on the S-15 subs is 60 Hz. This means that there is a 40-60 Hz. overlap between the satellites and the subs. This is audible in the room and results in some of the pressurization effect that garbulky noticed. I will eventually measure this at the listening position and apply some interim DSP equalization to smooth the response there, but for now... For the very first time in my room I actually heard and felt the 16 Hz. intro pedal tone of "Also Sprach Zarathustra." The "final solution" that I plan to use is an upstream analog electronic crossover after the preamplifier. The bass will roll off at 18 dB / octave, and the treble at 6 dB / octave. A modified Dahlquist DQ-LP1 will be the dividing network. I'll need to experiment to determine the best crossover frequency. I suspect that (without compensating equalization) the Airmotiv S-15 will not be happy trying to extend upward to 100 Hz. (my previous choice with other subs). But all this is speculation on my part. The DQ crossover currently has one channel out, and until I diagnose and repair it, I'm "crossoverless." Thanks, as always, to garbulky for his insightful suggestions & helpful comments and criticisms. Having him over is like having "Doctor Audio" do a free consultation and tune-up on my system every time! Boomzilla PS: My typical listening volume (for most all content) is but a fraction of garbulky's preferred level. Since my house is a detached structure, the available latitude for high volume is significantly wider than when one has common walls with neighbors. Some of the " garbulky visit" listening is done at lower volumes (closer to where I normally listen), but for "proof testing" of new equipment, garbulky likes to find the limits. So when the Airmotiv S-15 subs were on trial, we tested them all the way from quietly to eye-opening levels. The good news is that the higher levels did not overload the room with standing waves, nor did the subs ever sound stressed or distorted in the least by the high volumes. In fact, they sounded like they had a LOT more headroom that we weren't even using, and the T2 towers kept up without strain as well! So although the system can play very, very loudly in the room without causing negative effects, the thing I like best about the current system is its dynamics even at very low levels. I wasn't expecting that from the S-15 subs, but with each change that I made (away from the floor, and then away from the back wall), the subs seemed more and more dynamic at very low levels. This is exactly what I want from a sub because, as mentioned, most of my listening is done without too much volume. My wife, whose ears are more sensitive than mine, is easily overwhelmed by high volumes and so also appreciates the subtle performance of the S-15s at quieter volumes. The "quickness" and pitch definition of the bass is also excellent with the subs in their current positions. I might be able to refine that a tad more with some experimentation with the phase pot on the subs' plate amps, but maybe not. In any case, the positioning changes I've made with the Airmotiv S-15s have evaporated my initial "buyers regret" with the subs, and I now look forward to living with them for a long, long time! Boom, How do these compare to the S1512DFs that you had at one time? I have those now and they are okay in my room, but at the close out price on the S15s I can be tempted to switch.
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Post by mfeust on Feb 9, 2020 9:49:55 GMT -5
So Boom what db levels are you talking about? Are you like at 70db and garbulky at 90db?
Mark
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Post by boomzilla on Feb 9, 2020 10:11:30 GMT -5
Boom, How do these compare to the S1512DFs that you had at one time? I have those now and they are okay in my room, but at the close out price on the S15s I can be tempted to switch. Hi davidl81 - If I already had the PowerSound Audio S1512DF subwoofers, I don't think that the switch to the Emotiva Airmotiv S-15s would be justified. The latter actually sounded pretty mundane until I got them positioned properly and away from room boundaries. But what works in my room is virtually certain NOT to work in yours because of different room dimensions. But I would say, in general, that just plopping down ANY sub in the most convenient room-location is highly unlikely to produce the best bass. My guess would be that the inherent subwoofer quality and capability makes for 40% of the potential performance, and that placement makes 55%. The remaining 5% has to do with measurement and application of electronic room correction (anything from analog equalization to full DIRAC). Now even the best placement and equalization can't make a Ferrari out of a Fiat, but provided your subwoofer is at least "good" (and your S1512DFs are VERY good) then you've got the bones of world-class bass! Boomzilla
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Post by DavidR on Feb 9, 2020 10:12:22 GMT -5
So another quick visit to the B'zillas! This time the PA-1 amps were back in action. This time the treble brightness was gone. B'zilla mentioned he had it on for a day before trying and both of us agreed that the bright vivid sound wasn't quite there. The tone was back to being neutral rather than a bit too bright. However interestingly the bass started getting better. I got a more full sound from the Sonus Fabers than before it was able to hit lower and harder than before and with a more relaxed less compressed type of manner. It still wasn't quite there. But then again only a few speakers are in this room. I anticipate this was because of the SF woofers loosening up and due to the PA-1's slowly getting in to optimal operational condition. Though the tone was neutral in this setup, this presents as a sound that's a bit laid back and not one that envelops you. So not necessarily ideal for the room. The room tends to do better with brighter electronics. I anticipate slight speaker position changes to help bring the sound out. However there was still some decent sound staging and quick dynamics going on. Overall the sound was impressive! It was at this point with the improved bass of the Sonus Faber's that I realized this could possibly be a significant improvement on the Axiom speakers being a little bit more composed in the bass frequencies. Also the treble coloration I atttributed to the speakers was no longer there at this time. These seem to me like quality speakers. Overall a good effort from Sonus Faber. Still a bit north of what I can afford. If they were closer to the 3-4k mark, it might be closer to my realistic budget for an upgrade. But I think the build and the high quality finish of the speakers cause the price bump. Here's why >>>
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Post by boomzilla on Feb 9, 2020 10:23:27 GMT -5
So Boom what db levels are you talking about? Are you like at 70db and garbulky at 90db? Mark Hi mfeust - Yes, I think you're pretty close. I'm most of the time between 65 & 75dB (and to my ears, 75 is LOUD). garbulky probably listens (in his own home) at between 75 & 85dB (but this is a guess on my part). HOWEVER, when garbulky comes to my home to hear new gear, we've routinely cranked between 85 & 95dB for brief periods. I can tell when garbulky thinks the system is sounding good - garbulky's body language gives away his opinion. He'll begin "couch dancing" and playing "air instruments." Sometimes he'll hum along or sing along with the music, and his feet tap along with the rhythm. I don't know what I do - I'm so busy enjoying vicariously my buddy's appreciation of the music that I just smile. Of course, when things AREN'T dialed in, garbulky will fidget from side to side on the couch, trying to find the (currently non-existent) sweet spot. But he's really good at diagnosing what he thinks is the problem, and he's now familiar enough with my room and my gear that the issue can often be set right promptly. Being about 30 years my junior, his ears are a lot better than mine, and I trust his impressions. Boom
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Post by mfeust on Feb 9, 2020 10:48:00 GMT -5
So Boom what db levels are you talking about? Are you like at 70db and garbulky at 90db? Mark Hi mfeust - Yes, I think you're pretty close. I'm most of the time between 65 & 75dB (and to my ears, 75 is LOUD). garbulky probably listens (in his own home) at between 75 & 85dB (but this is a guess on my part). HOWEVER, when garbulky comes to my home to hear new gear, we've routinely cranked between 85 & 95dB for brief periods. I can tell when garbulky thinks the system is sounding good - garbulky's body language gives away his opinion. He'll begin "couch dancing" and playing "air instruments." Sometimes he'll hum along or sing along with the music, and his feet tap along with the rhythm. I don't know what I do - I'm so busy enjoying vicariously my buddy's appreciation of the music that I just smile. Of course, when things AREN'T dialed in, garbulky will fidget from side to side on the couch, trying to find the (currently non-existent) sweet spot. But he's really good at diagnosing what he thinks is the problem, and he's now familiar enough with my room and my gear that the issue can often be set right promptly. Being about 30 years my junior, his ears are a lot better than mine, and I trust his impressions. Boom Hey Boom, I'm a little like both of you. However I don't think I ever listen below 75db. Bad recording not my favorite music 75db. Excellent recording favorite music 90db. Mark
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2020 13:36:09 GMT -5
Very interesting that Boom is disregarding popular theories & experimenting for myself his theories. Bravo.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2020 14:40:13 GMT -5
Since Surround sound, marketing has attempted to change the rules to sell product. Over the past decade of disappointment, I'm going back to what I know and Steve has good points that I'm in total agreement with.
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