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Post by Boomzilla on Nov 10, 2014 8:38:32 GMT -5
if the DC-1 is half as bad as you feel it is, why don't others agree? I would think there would be someone who feels similarly. I understand you feel strongly about it.... But your island seems to be pretty sparsely populated. Seems like the most common con is "sounds like other decent DACs". I respect your opinion - just seems like you're the only one in the room saying that the temperature is horribly wrong when its 75 degrees. My only thinking is that your setup brings out the worst of the DC-1 somehow. Hi Jim000 - You are completely right. The votes run 999 to 1 against me on this issue. Nevertheless, I hear what I hear (and at least Garbulky, who heard his own DC-1 in my room, agrees with me). I just sent a PM to another Lounger who had written off the Stealth based on my comments. I told him not to do that. The DAC is apparently special in some (most?) systems. It is worth a try without question. Despite the fact that the DAC compliments most systems, it is an absolute dog in mine. This is not hyperbole. Why? Equipment interaction? Room acoustics? Something else? I just don't know. I think that you're exactly right when you say that my setup brings out the worst of the DC-1. But the Stealth DC-1 DOES have a "worst" to bring out! The best analogy I can make is that the Stealth DC-1 is like a horn-loaded loudspeaker or a single-ended triode tube amp. The sounds that are reproduced can be highly pleasant, but they ultimately aren't fully accurate to the original music. Some prefer a stereo that "sounds good" to them. I prefer a stereo that is absolutely true to the source. To my ears, and in my room, the Oppo comes closer than the Stealth. I'm not trying to stir argument with my condemnation of the DC-1 (too much), but I'm truly amazed that others don't hear what I do. Perhaps those who have heard what I object to are those who 1) Don't frequent this Lounge too much or 2) Just sent their DAC back to Emotiva rather than kept it. In that case, the Lounge members would have "self-selected" into the category of those who like the sound of the DC-1. Again, pure speculation...but it seems credible. In any case, I'm sure that the Stealth DC-1 is a fine DAC in some systems. But even in those systems, I don't think that it is a neutral component. If your system is one that will mask the Stealth's flaws (or if your ears are receptive to the "flavor" of the Stealth's sound), then the DAC is a bargain. Most seem to like the sound, so the "voicing" is one that receives a popular reception and that sells well. In my system, the Oppo BDP-105 (and even the Audioquest Dragonfly 1.2) sound not only better, but much, much better. And that's how it is. Boomzilla
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Nov 10, 2014 12:20:47 GMT -5
I can't (and won't) comment on what sounds "better" to any individual (and I've also never head Boom's system)..... but I must disagree with the assertion that the DC-1 isn't (at least more-or-less) neutral. In general (and by design), Sabre DACs are not neutral. I own several units which use Sabre DACs, and they all have a distinct coloration, which to me sounds like they're slightly boosting the high frequencies (since their frequency response is dead flat, I credit this to some difference in the voicing of their digital filters, which more or less agrees with their original marketing stance). My original Dragonfly actually somehow managed to combine this effect with a somewhat recessed high end - which combination I didn't like at all. (I gather they've improved that on the new one.) My Wyred4Sound and my AudioLab, both of which are higher-end Sabre-based units, both sound rather less colored, and simply seem to slightly "highlight" details and higher frequencies, but without actually making them sound brighter. I find this rather pleasant with some content - but I would not characterize it as neutral (and some of my friends downright don't like it). So, whether you like the Oppo 105 better than the Oppo 103 or not, the Oppo 103 would almost certainly be the more neutral of the two, and I'm pretty sure the same is true of the DC-1. (Since Boom likes both the Oppo 105 and the DragonfFly, both of which use the Sabre, and share its characteristic sound, I assume this complements his system and preferences well.) I think it would be very interesting if someone were to do a wider study of how people's various preferences correlate with each other..... For example, do most people who like Klipsch speakers tend to like Sabre DACs? or not? If they do, is it because the two have weaknesses that complement each other and so cancel out? Or is it because there is some similar characteristic that both share that appeals to certain people? And how does all this correlate to what types of music people listen to? (Personally I'm not at all fond of how horn speakers sound; I find them to have excellent dynamics, but a lot of coloration - which I notice most on female vocals - which make up most of what I prefer to listen to. I think horns sound fine when playing big band music - but I almost never listen to that. In fact, I rarely listen to any type of instrumental music (which doesn't include vocals). And, yes, I do personally find that, to me, even Klipsch's regular - non-horn - speakers seem to be voiced to sound like their horn speakers.... emphasis on dynamics, emphasis on loud and clean, but willing to admit a little coloration in the midrange. I also find most of Klipsch's speakers to have plenty of "treble", but to be a tiny bit lacking at the very top end... which is where I suspect the slight "apparent brightness" of Sabre DACs might complement them very well.) To anybody who really likes the Oppo 105, or already has an Oppo 103, but finds the sound of the 105 enticing, I would suggest looking into other Sabre DACs - there are actually quite a few out there, and most share the characteristic "Sabre flavor" to a greater or lesser degree. (There are certainly a LOT more Sabre-based products out there than the DragonFly and the Oppo 105 .) Unfortunately, other than listening to both types, and sharing notes, there's no way to characterize what we're talking about here in a "purely analytical manner".... since both the DC-1, and most better Sabre DACs, have avery flat frequency response, low distortion, and decent impulse response, and I'm not aware of any easily quantifiable way to describe the differences between them. if the DC-1 is half as bad as you feel it is, why don't others agree? I would think there would be someone who feels similarly. I understand you feel strongly about it.... But your island seems to be pretty sparsely populated. Seems like the most common con is "sounds like other decent DACs". I respect your opinion - just seems like you're the only one in the room saying that the temperature is horribly wrong when its 75 degrees. My only thinking is that your setup brings out the worst of the DC-1 somehow. Hi Jim000 - You are completely right. The votes run 999 to 1 against me on this issue. Nevertheless, I hear what I hear (and at least Garbulky, who heard his own DC-1 in my room, agrees with me). I just sent a PM to another Lounger who had written off the Stealth based on my comments. I told him not to do that. The DAC is apparently special in some (most?) systems. It is worth a try without question. Despite the fact that the DAC compliments most systems, it is an absolute dog in mine. This is not hyperbole. Why? Equipment interaction? Room acoustics? Something else? I just don't know. I think that you're exactly right when you say that my setup brings out the worst of the DC-1. But the Stealth DC-1 DOES have a "worst" to bring out! The best analogy I can make is that the Stealth DC-1 is like a horn-loaded loudspeaker or a single-ended triode tube amp. The sounds that are reproduced can be highly pleasant, but they ultimately aren't fully accurate to the original music. Some prefer a stereo that "sounds good" to them. I prefer a stereo that is absolutely true to the source. To my ears, and in my room, the Oppo comes closer than the Stealth. I'm not trying to stir argument with my condemnation of the DC-1 (too much), but I'm truly amazed that others don't hear what I do. Perhaps those who have heard what I object to are those who 1) Don't frequent this Lounge too much or 2) Just sent their DAC back to Emotiva rather than kept it. In that case, the Lounge members would have "self-selected" into the category of those who like the sound of the DC-1. Again, pure speculation...but it seems credible. In any case, I'm sure that the Stealth DC-1 is a fine DAC in some systems. But even in those systems, I don't think that it is a neutral component. If your system is one that will mask the Stealth's flaws (or if your ears are receptive to the "flavor" of the Stealth's sound), then the DAC is a bargain. Most seem to like the sound, so the "voicing" is one that receives a popular reception and that sells well. In my system, the Oppo BDP-105 (and even the Audioquest Dragonfly 1.2) sound not only better, but much, much better. And that's how it is. Boomzilla
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Nov 10, 2014 15:47:00 GMT -5
This just proves to me that synergy of components and room interaction plays a bigger part than we think. I'm not sure about that Devlan...my tests were with the Oppo and the DC-1 each going into an XSP-1. While mine is a Gen 1 and I believe boom's is a Gen 2, I would not think that difference is big enough to make a difference. After that, I would assume that any amps/speakers down the line would treat what comes out of the XSP-1 equally. Now - I DID have to level match the Oppo and the DC-1 as their levels were different enough to be noticable. When level matched, I hear the OPPOsite of what boom and gar are reporting. garbulky - can you make sure you level match when you try this at your house, and please confirm what you told me on this topic via PM (re. level matching)? Mark
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Post by garbulky on Nov 10, 2014 16:36:27 GMT -5
This just proves to me that synergy of components and room interaction plays a bigger part than we think. I'm not sure about that Devlan...my tests were with the Oppo and the DC-1 each going into an XSP-1. While mine is a Gen 1 and I believe boom's is a Gen 2, I would not think that difference is big enough to make a difference. After that, I would assume that any amps/speakers down the line would treat what comes out of the XSP-1 equally. Now - I DID have to level match the Oppo and the DC-1 as their levels were different enough to be noticable. When level matched, I hear the OPPOsite of what boom and gar are reporting. garbulky - can you make sure you level match when you try this at your house, and please confirm what you told me on this topic via PM (re. level matching)? Mark Hi Mark. We usually don't level match. We don't have the equipment to be precise enough. Our reviews are purely subjective with all its strengths and weaknesses that come with being subjective. We use it as we would if we were using the gear. But as for the other points. One thing that did interest me is......the oppo 105 did react (very well) to being paired with an XSP-1. I don't think there should be a noticeable difference between gen 1 and 2. The DC-1 has an output impedance of 47 ohms and if I'm not mistaken, the XSP-1's output impedance is significantly higher than that. On the specs page for the XSP-1 it said minimum reccomended load impedance - 600 ohms. I'm not even sure what that means. but anyway, could that mismatch have contributed? I don't know. I do know the oppo 105 liked the XSP-1.
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Nov 10, 2014 16:39:23 GMT -5
Per our PM's...I strongly reco level matching if one wants to draw any significant conclusions. Level differences can significantly color what we hear in direct comparisons.
Mark
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Nov 10, 2014 18:08:49 GMT -5
I just checked and to level match the Oppo and DC-1 through my XSP-1 gen 1, I have to dial the Oppo back to 90-93% of its volume (by ear...my meter is dead right now, but that gets them very close).
If I listen without matching levels, the Oppo sounds more dynamic and more full in the mids. Hmmm...sounds like what gar and boom are hearing. I think what we have here is not a case of different ears or component matching but rather a difference in levels.
Gar/boom...what specific music did you a/b with the two? I will go give a listen with that very music if I have it and do it matched and unmatched levels to see what I hear.
Mark
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Post by garbulky on Nov 10, 2014 20:20:18 GMT -5
klinemj: We need to drag you over here! lol! Okay, I hope everybody realizes, at least for me, this is not some final verdict. The result we had is just that, the result we heard in that particular setup. I won't blame the differences on anything like the room, bad hearing etc because I have no idea. I like my DC-1 - in my setup - it tends to work well and I am VERY picky with my sound. I haven't heard anything .... outside of one setup that has bettered it. And let me reiterate - I am PICKY. I.e: So that says a lot for the DC-1. However, the best sound I have ever heard was at B'zilla's. It really is fantastic when everything gels just right. The point of this contest, was really just two guys having fun, ENJOYING AUDIO. And I had a great evening there. Hope my favorite forum does not read anything too negative about the contest. Sometimes we have winners, sometimes we things don't go quite how is expected. Who knows why right? And all the caveats apply: - in that particular setup, -your mileage may vary, -my thang ain't your thang, -The sky is blue, no fool, it's cyan -Emo still rocks
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novisnick
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Post by novisnick on Nov 10, 2014 20:33:38 GMT -5
klinemj: We need to drag you over here! lol! Okay, I hope everybody realizes, at least for me, this is not some final verdict. The result we had is just that, the result we heard in that particular setup. I won't blame the differences on anything like the room, bad hearing etc because I have no idea. I like my DC-1 - in my setup - it tends to work well and I am VERY picky with my sound. I haven't heard anything .... outside of one setup that has bettered it. And let me reiterate - I am PICKY. I.e: So that says a lot for the DC-1. However, the best sound I have ever heard was at B'zilla's. It really is fantastic when everything gels just right. The point of this contest, was really just two guys having fun, ENJOYING AUDIO. And I had a great evening there. Hope my favorite forum does not read anything too negative about the contest. Sometimes we have winners, sometimes we things don't go quite how is expected. Who knows why right? And all the caveats apply: - in that particular setup, -your mileage may vary, -my thang ain't your thang, -The sky is blue, no fool, it's cyan -Emo still rocks I need your ears,,,,,,,,,,take a ride north, I'll buy lunch!!!
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Nov 10, 2014 20:36:38 GMT -5
I would love to if you guys were closer! But, I do think that if your gatherings are informal/just two guys having fun...you should each represent them as that. However, when claims are made that any unit is a "dog" when the testing that leads to that statement was not level matched and no a/b testing of common tunes was done, that type of statement should be reserved (IMHO). Otherwise, it does discredit the opinions stated...again, IMHO. People read forums looking for legit info. We owe the readers that much.
Mark
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Post by garbulky on Nov 10, 2014 20:58:45 GMT -5
We would enjoy company Mark! I can't speak for anyone but me. But.... I mean don't think I've misrepresented what we did. Purely subjective stuff. Two guys sitting and comparing stuff by listening. This isn't a new system for either of us, we are both familiar with the sound. For us it was valid. This is the way I compare stuff. I mean, let's be honest, this isn't a bunch of people that haven't heard anything but their car radio comparing Bose and Sony HTIB systems. We aren't complete noobs at If you look at most of the other posts, it's clearly stated what it is and isn't. Subjective is NOT a dirty word. For me, it's the most important part. It doesn't make our opinion invalid, it really was based off actual listening. Just invalid to some. And that's okay, I think that what makes this hobby fun.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2014 21:17:19 GMT -5
Hi Mark. We usually don't level match. We don't have the equipment to be precise enough. Our reviews are purely subjective with all its strengths and weaknesses that come with being subjective. That's the reason I take many reviews here and at other forums with a huge grain of salt, aka mostly useless subjectivism. There are very few strengths in subjective reviews (other than inflating ones own NPD), versus the huge weaknesses. If one is very careful, you can do a good job of level matching in many cases. Combined with a reasonable level of blind evaluation, suddenly the majority of those differences one hears between competing DAC's, pre's, cables, etc., disappears. In speakers with obvious real differences, many pre-conceived biases go bye-bye. Without reasonable level matching and blind testing your reviews might as well go Blowin in The Wind (to quote a friend of mind). Of course, the popular response from the subjective crowd to doubtful critics like me is to attack my ears and lack of resolving equipment.
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novisnick
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Post by novisnick on Nov 10, 2014 21:18:41 GMT -5
We would enjoy company Mark! I can't speak for anyone but me. But.... I mean don't think I've misrepresented what we did. Purely subjective stuff. Two guys sitting and comparing stuff by listening. This isn't a new system for either of us, we are both familiar with the sound. For us it was valid. This is the way I compare stuff. I mean, let's be honest, this isn't a bunch of people that haven't heard anything but their car radio comparing Bose and Sony HTIB systems. We aren't complete noobs at If you look at most of the other posts, it's clearly stated what it is and isn't. Subjective is NOT a dirty word. For me, it's the most important part. It doesn't make our opinion invalid, it really was based off actual listening. Just invalid to some. And that's okay, I think that what makes this hobby fun. All of my HT equipment came in boxes, so I beg to differ with you!!! Come to to think of it, all my two channel came that way too,,,,,he,,,,,,he,,,,,,he,,,,,,,
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2014 21:23:26 GMT -5
Just wait until I find my camera and head down to my garage!
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Post by garbulky on Nov 10, 2014 21:42:26 GMT -5
Hi Mark. We usually don't level match. We don't have the equipment to be precise enough. Our reviews are purely subjective with all its strengths and weaknesses that come with being subjective. That's the reason I take many reviews here and at other forums with a huge grain of salt, aka mostly useless subjectivism. There are very few strengths in subjective reviews (other than inflating ones own NPD), versus the huge weaknesses. If one is very careful, you can do a good job of level matching in many cases. Combined with a reasonable level of blind evaluation, suddenly the majority of those differences one hears between competing DAC's, pre's, cables, etc., disappears. In speakers with obvious real differences, many pre-conceived biases go bye-bye. Without reasonable level matching and blind testing your reviews might as well go Blowin in The Wind (to quote a friend of mind). Of course, the popular response from the subjective crowd to doubtful critics like me is to attack my ears and lack of resolving equipment. NPD really? I feel like I've been ass-salted- with a huge grain of salt. As for the other stuff. That's great! I have nothing against people doing blind testing. Feel free to go ahead and do just that. I will enjoy reading that review. Has anybody ever sat down and listened to stuff on gear that they are familiar with? Have they? Because that's what we did. And then we posted about it. And I am not obligated to do otherwise.
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Post by yeeeha17 on Nov 10, 2014 21:51:13 GMT -5
Tough crowd.......keep doing what you guys are doing I like reading them
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Nov 11, 2014 6:49:01 GMT -5
Of course, the popular response from the subjective crowd to doubtful critics like me is to attack my ears and lack of resolving equipment. Chuck, I for one would never attack your ears. Now, those goofy eyeballs are a different story you nut job! Seriously, now that I know boom and gar are not level matching and not listening to compare common music selections across equipment, I will take their comments appropriately. This does, however, make me think it is time for boom to take back/soften his "dog" comment. That was a very strong statement based on the type of assessment done. Mark
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Post by vneal on Nov 11, 2014 7:13:35 GMT -5
I enjoyed reading about the Klipsch Cornwalls. During the early 80's I had Klipsch LaScallas that I ran with McIntosh tube equipment. The sound was good and as I recalled they were the separation queen and VERY EFFICIENT and played as LOUD as you wanted. I never got BASS SATISFACTION from the Klipsch and the speakers had a low WAF at my house. Any way when I sold them they held their value. They were birch wood stained walnut with top horn cane grills. I do miss those speakers
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Post by Boomzilla on Nov 11, 2014 7:30:36 GMT -5
Seriously, now that I know boom and gar are not level matching and not listening to compare common music selections across equipment, I will take their comments appropriately. This does, however, make me think it is time for boom to take back/soften his "dog" comment. That was a very strong statement based on the type of assessment done. If you buy a magazine where reviewers have pronounced a piece of equipment a "dog" compared to another, you'll find that they haven't bothered to level-match either. Should my standards for posting on a free internet forum exceed those of professional reviewers writing in a print journal? I never said that the "contest" was A/B while switching between components. I do say that using two different Stealth DC-1 units, at two different times, using different electronics, and using different speakers, that MY results are consistent. I freely admit that the vast majority of other DC-1 owners disagree. I have gone so far as to recommend that others (who have PM'd me about my DC-1 comments) definitely try the DAC. The odds are very high that they'll like it. Nevertheless, to my ears and in my system, the Stealth DC-1 is, has been, and will remain not just a dog but a howling one. Whether or not anyone else thinks this comment is justified, that's what I hear. Boomzilla
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Nov 11, 2014 7:54:21 GMT -5
You are consistent, if nothing else.
Mark
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Post by Boomzilla on Nov 11, 2014 11:39:51 GMT -5
As are you, amigo! LOL
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