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Post by Yetirider on Sept 8, 2013 16:31:35 GMT -5
Hi all, I'm a firm believer in room correction,I've had the Denon AVP with Audyssey XT32 pro calibrated & currently the Onkyo 5509 XT32 pro calibrated. I'm very interested in the XMC-1 & wondering why Emotiva have chosen Dirac room correction over Audyssey,especially as Audyssey are a U.S. company & would from the outside appear the obvious partner ?
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Post by Jim on Sept 8, 2013 18:17:36 GMT -5
I think if I can summarize Dan's comments from emofest about Audyssey (which I don't think he ever actually said the name): it doesn't always work well. For many people - they don't like the results. Dirac is supposed to be superior.
Sometimes Audyssey works fine. Other times it doesn't. I have the pro calibration kit - and while it helps - its still fairly limited.
I'm not sure I've ever met an installer or integrator who really puts any stock in Audyssey. It's only "sometimes" beneficial.
Dan didn't want to use mediocre room correction. He wants to use the best.
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Post by coldfusion on Sept 8, 2013 19:37:01 GMT -5
They need a way to differentiate and drum up interest. Everything else spec sheet wise the XMC gets slaughtered, with most people touting subjective "sound quality" as a reason to buy. Most high end processors at 2k in 2014 have or will have more hdmi inputs/outputs, 9.2 or 11.2 processing, and audyssey xt32.
They tried Tact, then moved to Dirac. It is different and may be better. Time will tell.
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bootman
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Post by bootman on Sept 8, 2013 19:38:57 GMT -5
Have you checked out the high end threads over at avs? you can find some comparisons there.
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Post by Jim on Sept 8, 2013 20:26:14 GMT -5
They need a way to differentiate and drum up interest. Everything else spec sheet wise the XMC gets slaughtered, with most people touting subjective "sound quality" as a reason to buy. Most high end processors at 2k in 2014 have or will have more hdmi inputs/outputs, 9.2 or 11.2 processing, and audyssey xt32. They tried Tact, then moved to Dirac. It is different and may be better. Time will tell. Umm. You mean all the other high end processors at $2k that couldn't afford to implement DIRAC? It's not cheap. Audyssey is just a mass market RC system that is cheap to implement. The other processors have ZERO modularity too. More inputs, outputs and processing for codecs (like 9.1) that aren't even all discrete channels? Who cares? How many inputs and outputs do you need? Wake me up when people actually start caring about width/height speakers. Most people don't. Quality over quantity. If you want "toys" go buy the other processors.
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Post by RightinLA on Sept 8, 2013 20:45:51 GMT -5
Let's wait for the XMC-1 to actually come out. All these comparisons with real products that one can actually purchase, listen to and test against future products under development is rather futile. By the time the XMC-1 ever comes out, who knows what the competition will be? All I know is that competition in this market doesn't standstill and by spring of 2014, the market will be considerably different than it is now.
Imagine what a shock it would be if another processor came out with TacT?
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Post by pedrocols on Sept 8, 2013 21:02:27 GMT -5
At the end of the day the sub-woofer will still go boom...And I don't think _________________ you guys fill in the blank.....
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Post by coldfusion on Sept 8, 2013 21:21:20 GMT -5
They need a way to differentiate and drum up interest. Everything else spec sheet wise the XMC gets slaughtered, with most people touting subjective "sound quality" as a reason to buy. Most high end processors at 2k in 2014 have or will have more hdmi inputs/outputs, 9.2 or 11.2 processing, and audyssey xt32. They tried Tact, then moved to Dirac. It is different and may be better. Time will tell. Umm. You mean all the other high end processors at $2k that couldn't afford to implement DIRAC? It's not cheap. Audyssey is just a mass market RC system that is cheap to implement. The other processors have ZERO modularity too. More inputs, outputs and processing for codecs (like 9.1) that aren't even all discrete channels? Who cares? How many inputs and outputs do you need? Wake me up when people actually start caring about width/height speakers. Most people don't. Quality over quantity. If you want "toys" go buy the other processors. I'm not sure why you'd think nobody but little Emotiva could afford Dirac. Certainly Yamaha, Denon, and Onkyo could. Modularity? We'll see. The best intentions and all that. 3d board for UMC? Scrapped. MPS amps? Discontinued. Why produce modules for existing customers to upgrade, limiting potential sales, when you can replace the legacy product, for less cost. Upgrade able technology is a paradox. Technology is replaced by newer better faster tech. Those 300mhz arms aren't going to have legs for long. But it's not out yet. If it comes out in February, we can talk about whether it has features I need. Maybe itll sound better. Right now it's all conjecture.
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LCSeminole
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Post by LCSeminole on Sept 8, 2013 21:25:14 GMT -5
They need a way to differentiate and drum up interest. Everything else spec sheet wise the XMC gets slaughtered, with most people touting subjective "sound quality" as a reason to buy. Most high end processors at 2k in 2014 have or will have more hdmi inputs/outputs, 9.2 or 11.2 processing, and audyssey xt32. They tried Tact, then moved to Dirac. It is different and may be better. Time will tell. Slaughtered spec sheet wise? I would be interested to hear you expand on the spec sheets you refer to, and to which processors you are referring. You point out HDMI inputs/outputs and 9.2 or 11.2 processing, as has already been stated, I would be hard pressed to name more than 7 actual sources for HDMI inputs, but that's just me(anyone else here have more than 7, just curious?). As for outputs, I can understand that some home theater enthusiasts may actually have a flat panel and a projector, but a splitter will do the same job as other mirrored HDMI outputs, not to mention that two HDMI outputs looks to be a near future upgrade for the XMC-1. If 9.2 or 11.2 is your bag, then you must have plenty of room for 11 or 13 channels of speakers, personally I don't have the room and I'd be willing to bet many home theater enthusiasts are hard pressed to fit 5.1 in there given room, but that would be a guess. As for Audyssey XT32, yes it appears to be a proven mass market, set it and forget it, room correction, and I've actually heard it in action in several other enviroments, but personally if a processor doesn't have a robust P-EQ where I can actually correct my room manually, I won't be considering that processor. I've been present for two different audio calibrations by professionals, and the use of a good microphone and P-EQ with REW was superior in both cases, and this was proven by the response curves that were taken before and after using both softwares. As you say, will DIRAC be better, time will tell, or will the subjective "sound quality" be more to your liking, time will tell, but then again the integration of all of the technologies that go into a processor are what makes the difference and not just because it may or may not have the most expensive DAC's for example.
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Post by RightinLA on Sept 8, 2013 21:28:05 GMT -5
Good points Coldfusion, I don't think the 3D board for the UMC-1 is supposed to be mentioned here any more. It is always conveniently forgotten or not spoken of by those who have otherwise demonstrated very good memories here in the Lounge. Emotiva tried modularity with the MPS-1 and MPS-2 amps and then discontinued them. Of course this time with the XMC-1, it will be different. Right? Well let's see about that.
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Post by Jim on Sept 8, 2013 21:38:30 GMT -5
I'm not sure why you'd think nobody but little Emotiva could afford Dirac. Certainly Yamaha, Denon, and Onkyo could. Why would Yamaha, Denon and Onkyo invest in a RC package that is more robust and expensive than needed? They seem to satisfy the bulk of the market with a $5 microphone and a RC that's click NEXT. If Audyssey is so good, why didn't Datasat choose it for it's cost-no-object RS20i? I'm not expecting DIRAC to be perfect, but the reality is, even the "Professional" version of Audyssey is nothing more than a cheap mic, a preamp and mediocre software... PLUS the need to buy a license for the pre/pro. I'm underwhelmed and I even own the calibration kit! DIRAC is in tons and tons of gear, it's just not a recognized name. Just because it has little exposure, don't assume that it's an under-performing product. If you're content with a RC system that is as simple as Audyssey, with 0 tweakability for non-pro setups..... then I guess DIRAC/XMC-1 isn't for you.
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Post by ansat on Sept 8, 2013 21:38:55 GMT -5
Keeping in line with the original post, I think some comparisons can be made. If we are comparing dirac vs audyssey and not comparing the equipment they live in, I have devised a test plan utilizing the free trial of dirac. www.dirac.se/en/consumer-products/dirac-rcs.aspxThere is some flaw in the plan as I dont have xt32. I only have xt. I ordered a new mic from cross spectrum this evening and hope to have it by the weeks end. The plan. Create a worst case scenerio. Aka my living room. Then make it worse. My living room is a rather large valted room which opens to my kitchen and dining area. I am running deftech bp6 for the fronts, 16 inches off the wall. I am currently breaking in some emotiva outdoor speakers and the sherbourn 12 channel 6 zone amp plugged into my denon 3808ci. I will place the outdoor speakers behind the deftechs facing towards the sides. This should create something really nasty in the time domain. I will run audyssey sometime this week. Once the mic comes in I will download the dirac software and run it twice. Once with the denon in stereo (using audyssey) and once in direct. Since the dirac software gives a before and after I should have 4 charts. Audyssey, audyssey + dirac, dirac only and stock. I will post my findings when I have them. For dirac to compete against audyssey. I feel it needs to provide noticable improvment in the time domain over the audyssey multeq xt. I already feel dirac has the edge in setup due to the user adjustable curve without additional licensing. Edit- I am running both the outdoor speakers and the deftechs at the same time as my right and left speaker. Tony sorry for the short response. sent from my phone.
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Post by coldfusion on Sept 8, 2013 21:43:21 GMT -5
Slaughtered spec sheet wise? I would be interested to hear you expand on the spec sheets you refer to, and to which processors you are referring. You point out HDMI inputs/outputs and 9.2 or 11.2 processing, as has already been stated, I would be hard pressed to name more than 7 actual sources for HDMI inputs, but that's just me(anyone else here have more than 7, just curious?). As for outputs, I can understand that some home theater enthusiasts may actually have a flat panel and a projector, but a splitter will do the same job as other mirrored HDMI outputs, not to mention that two HDMI outputs looks to be a near future upgrade for the XMC-1. If 9.2 or 11.2 is your bag, then you must have plenty of room for 11 or 13 channels of speakers, personally I don't have the room and I'd be willing to bet many home theater enthusiasts are hard pressed to fit 5.1 in there given room, but that would be a guess. As for Audyssey XT32, yes it appears to be a proven mass market, set it and forget it, room correction, and I've actually heard it in action in several other enviroments, but personally if a processor doesn't have a robust P-EQ where I can actually correct my room manually, I won't be considering that processor. I've been present for two different audio calibrations by professionals, and the use of a good microphone and P-EQ with REW was superior in both cases, and this was proven by the response curves that were taken before and after using both softwares. As you say, will DIRAC be better, time will tell, or will the subjective "sound quality" be more to your liking, time will tell, but then again the integration of all of the technologies that go into a processor are what makes the difference and not just because it may or may not have the most expensive DAC's for example. Yes. Spec sheet wise. You don't agree? Legacy inputs vs none. 11.2/9.2 vs 7.2 AirPlay vs none Network streaming vs ?? Multiple hdmi outs vs 1 3 zones vs ?? Bluetooth vs ?? Pandora streaming. Only thing the XMC has that the others don't is Dirac. Yamaha cx-a5000 can be had for less than 2k from authorized dealers. Denon and onkyo models have similar features. And newer processors you can run both hdmi outs at the same time, which a switch couldn't do. I correct my room as well. I'll take $500 in room treatments over $500 in RCS any day. For hdmi, I have around that now(6) Bluray Boxee Appletv Xbox360 Ps3 Cable box The ps4 will take me to 7. Then I also have Wii Cd Minidisc Airport express Dreamcast And just because you don't use the feature doesn't mean it isn't there or useful. Many people don't have room, but many others (especially those buying a 2k pro) do. Most people don't have multiple subs either. Anyhow I wasn't debating the usefulness of features to different people, everyone has a different set up. But clearly the others have many features the XMC doesn't, and the XMC has Dirac that the others don't have, which is why I believe emotiva chose tact, then Dirac (to keep this on topic)
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geebo
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Post by geebo on Sept 8, 2013 21:43:23 GMT -5
Good grief! Another thread asking a simple question that turns into yet another XMC criticism. The OP asked why Emotiva choose Dirac over Audyssey so if anything it should be a discussion about Dirac vs Audyssey. Both products BTW, are available now.
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Post by coldfusion on Sept 8, 2013 22:00:36 GMT -5
Good grief! Another thread asking a simple question that turns into yet another XMC criticism. The OP asked why Emotiva choose Dirac over Audyssey so if anything it should be a discussion about Dirac vs Audyssey. Both products BTW, are available now. If you're referring to me(?), I wasn't criticizing the XMC. I merely said they went with Dirac IMO because they had to. If they had the same RCS as everyone else, and fewer features, their market shrinks considerably. I never said audyssey was better. Dirac may be better. No one will know if its better in the XMC until its out. It has been stated its an "emotiva specific version".
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Post by Andrew Robinson on Sept 8, 2013 22:00:56 GMT -5
Good grief! Another thread asking a simple question that turns into yet another XMC criticism. The OP asked why Emotiva choose Dirac over Audyssey so if anything it should be a discussion about Dirac vs Audyssey. Both products BTW, are available now. Good point. If I may, I think the reason Emotiva went with Dirac over other suitors has to do with a) so many people (see Emotiva customers) generally disliking mainstream auto-EQ solutions or at least having a number of complaints about them and b) wanting to offer folks a more sophisticated, pro-sourced solution in Dirac. Emotiva could have easily gone with a solution such as Audyssey, but they didn't because, like with many things Emotiva does, just because a lot of people do it one way doesn't mean it's the only way to do something. If I had to venture a guess (actually Dan said as much during Emofest's customer Q&A session)
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LCSeminole
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Post by LCSeminole on Sept 8, 2013 22:09:05 GMT -5
Coldfusion, I hope you've not taken a defensive posture to my response to your post (as I'm definitely not here to argue), when I simply was either offering alternative looks to your points or asking for more input from those that do, for example the use of more than 7 inputs. I'm going to also guess you will be replacing your PS3 with that PS4 in the future, so if I'm correct, that still means you'll have 6 sources, but it's apparent you are approaching 7 quite quickly. I'm guessing you have a Yamaha CX-A5000, I will say you got one heck of a good deal if you bought a processor with a msrp of $2999 for under $2000. As for room treatments, I use them as well, but when that doesn't completely fix the problem a nice robust P-EQ will do wonders with a good microphone and REW. As for analog inputs, I've not used an analog source expect my ERC CD players for some time now, so I'll be covered there as well. As I've said in many other threads, options are great, and everyone should at least have one backup option, as not every product is for everyone, and the XMC-1 with DIRAC may or may not be for you. To the OP, I apologize for going to far off your subject of comparing the two room corrections.
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LCSeminole
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Post by LCSeminole on Sept 8, 2013 22:14:39 GMT -5
Keeping in line with the original post, I think some comparisons can be made. If we are comparing dirac vs audyssey and not comparing the equipment they live in, I have devised a test plan utilizing the free trial of dirac. www.dirac.se/en/consumer-products/dirac-rcs.aspxThere is some flaw in the plan as I dont have xt32. I only have xt. I ordered a new mic from cross spectrum this evening and hope to have it by the weeks end. The plan. Create a worst case scenerio. Aka my living room. Then make it worse. My living room is a rather large valted room which opens to my kitchen and dining area. I am running deftech bp6 for the fronts, 16 inches off the wall. I am currently breaking in some emotiva outdoor speakers and the sherbourn 12 channel 6 zone amp plugged into my denon 3808ci. I will place the outdoor speakers behind the deftechs facing towards the sides. This should create something really nasty in the time domain. I will run audyssey sometime this week. Once the mic comes in I will download the dirac software and run it twice. Once with the denon in stereo (using audyssey) and once in direct. Since the dirac software gives a before and after I should have 4 charts. Audyssey, audyssey + dirac, dirac only and stock. I will post my findings when I have them. For dirac to compete against audyssey. I feel it needs to provide noticable improvment in the time domain over the audyssey multeq xt. I already feel dirac has the edge in setup due to the user adjustable curve without additional licensing. Edit- I am running both the outdoor speakers and the deftechs at the same time as my right and left speaker. Tony sorry for the short response. sent from my phone. Tony, I look forward to your results with DIRAC and seeing the differences. I will be trying out the trial version of DIRAC as soon as I can get some time in the next few weeks, until then I'll have to settle for your observations.
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Post by coldfusion on Sept 8, 2013 22:21:05 GMT -5
Coldfusion, you've obviously taken a defensive posture to my response to your post (as I'm definitely not here to argue), when I simply was either offering alternative looks to your points or asking for more input from those that do, for example the use of more than 7 inputs. I'm going to also guess you will be replacing your PS3 with that PS4 in the future, so if I'm correct, that still means you'll have 6 sources, but it's apparent you are approaching 7 quite quickly. I'm guessing you have a Yamaha CX-A5000, I will say you got one heck of a good deal if you bought a processor with a msrp of $2999 for under $2000. As for room treatments, I use them as well, but when that doesn't completely fix the problem a nice robust P-EQ will do wonders with a good microphone and REW. As for analog inputs, I've not used an analog source expect my ERC CD players for some time now, so I'll be covered there as well. As I've said in many other threads, options are great, and everyone should at least have backup option, as not every product is for everyone, and the XMC-1 with DIRAC may or may not be for you. To the OP, I apologize for going to far of your subject of comparing the two room corrections. Sorry, I thought i was answering your question. Or maybe it was rhetorical? Hard to tell on the interwebs. Unfortunately ps4 isn't backward compatible, so ps3 must stay. As for the Yammy, no don't have one -- yet. I'm not sure if it was ever sold at 2999, even crutch field has it for 2499, and they're usually at the high end of pricing. Somebody else on the forum said his dealer had them for 1750. I've seen them online for 2k. Debating what to replace my UMC-1 with. It only has 5 hdmi so I have to use the component for my cable box ATM. Who knows, maybe RMC will be for me. Or maybe XMC will be awesome SQ wise when it comes out and I won't be able to pass up, even if I "outgrow" it in a year. One thing is for sure, we have awesome options in prepros in 2014. Ain't competition grand?
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Sept 8, 2013 23:27:53 GMT -5
In Addition to what Andrew notes above, DIRAC and Emotiva each had been working withMomentum Data Solutions - so there was a natural linkage that helps make integration into the XMC easier to get done.
That 2 XMC's were already using it at Emofest is a clear demo of that.
Mark
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