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Post by markusv2 on Jan 30, 2014 13:33:10 GMT -5
So we can enjoy even more HDMI related issues?  HDMI issues are not unique to Emotiva. But you know that already. HDCP is really to blame here but that is another topic altogether. With HDMI 2.0 we might get the chance to experience some new issues on top of the old issues. "Beyond expectations" if you will |
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Post by Bonzo on Jan 30, 2014 13:37:50 GMT -5
The XMC-1 can do analog audio without issue. Yes, it does, but again, not as many as I would like, so there is issue. I would have to use dual inputs and assign them to different stuff (assuming this is for sure doable as we are assuming), like running a CD player to the XLR analog 1 ins and a Turntable to the RCA jacks to the same analog 1 ins. This thing has 8 HDMI ins, 6 Digital ins, but falls a few inputs short on analog, at least for me. I would rather have seen more of those than 2 HDMI outputs, because I will probably never have a projector. Both would be preferable. Perhaps that's another reason for the delay, because they are adding more RCA analog inputs for good 'ol Bonzo.   Legacy video I don't find quite as important myself, in my system, because since I run my VCR only a few times each year. Running a dedicated cord directly to the TV and switching inputs there doesn't kill me. But I still want the audio to go through my surround speaker system, hence the need for the analog ins. |
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Post by chaosrv on Jan 30, 2014 13:38:01 GMT -5
HDMI issues are not unique to Emotiva. But you know that already. HDCP is really to blame here but that is another topic altogether. With HDMI 2.0 we might get the chance to experience some new issues on top of the old issues. "Beyond expectations" if you will Or maybe HDMI 2.0 will solve many of the issues inherent in the previous HDCP & HDMI implementations |
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Post by flak on Jan 30, 2014 13:39:37 GMT -5
I'm from Dirac Research and my point of view is admittedly biased, but to sweeten the waiting I'd like to explain why Dirac Live in its XMC-1 incarnation, is different from traditional good minimum-phase solutions like Audissey and others.
Let me quote an excerpt from the REW's measurement software developer site (www.hometheatershack.com):
"Minimum phase systems can be inverted, which means that a filter can be designed that, if applied to the system, would produce a flat response and correct the phase response at the same time. That is clearly a nice property to find if we want to apply EQ. If we apply EQ to a system that is not minimum phase, or more particularly in a region where it is not minimum phase, the EQ will not produce the results we would like. It may still be possible to achieve a flat response, but correcting the phase response would elude us. It is simply not possible"
On the contrary Dirac Live is a mixed-phase solution so it can successfully apply a full bandwidth correction of room behaviour, which is mixed-phase.
We explain that as follows:
"Infinitely many different filters can be designed to have the exact same magnitude response. They differ only in their impulse response. Therefore, it is useful to classify filters according to how their impulse responses behave.
Two commonly used filter classes in audio applications are minimum-phase filters and linear-phase filters. They are two special cases that are relatively easy to design, but that come with tightly constrained impulse response characteristics. A minimum-phase filter, by definition, is constrained to apply only the smallest possible delay to the signal given a desired magnitude response. A linear-phase filter, by definition, applies a delay which is constant across the whole frequency range. Therefore, neither of these two filter designs can make a desired change to the phase or impulse response, unless the desired change is exactly the particular change they make by definition. Minimum-phase and linear-phase filters may even worsen both the impulse response and the magnitude response of a system, simply by applying their magnitude response corrections at the wrong time.
A more difficult design task is to make a mixed-phase filter that matches a desired magnitude response while also having a customized impulse response. A properly designed mixed-phase filter can make significant improvements to the impulse response of a sound system at the listening position"
Ciao, Flavio
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2014 13:44:07 GMT -5
I think Dan's just trying to do what's best for his customers in this case. Adding HDMI2.0 give the devices potentially a longer product lifespan - worth the minor delay. Till I get my XMC-1 I'll keep chugging along driving my XPR-5 with the pre-outs on my 15 year old Denon AVR3600 |
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Post by markusv2 on Jan 30, 2014 13:45:15 GMT -5
With HDMI 2.0 we might get the chance to experience some new issues on top of the old issues. "Beyond expectations" if you will Or maybe HDMI 2.0 will solve many of the issues inherent in the previous HDCP & HDMI implementations Yes, sure, all of them. It's quite refreshing to see that in Emotivaland everything looks so much brighter than in real life. I'm jealous |
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Post by bootman on Jan 30, 2014 13:46:50 GMT -5
I'm from Dirac Research and my point of view is admittedly biased, but to sweeten the waiting I'd like to explain why Dirac Live in its XMC-1 incarnation, is different from traditional good minimum-phase solutions like Audissey and others. Let me quote an excerpt from the REW's measurement software developer site (www.hometheatershack.com): "Minimum phase systems can be inverted, which means that a filter can be designed that, if applied to the system, would produce a flat response and correct the phase response at the same time. That is clearly a nice property to find if we want to apply EQ. If we apply EQ to a system that is not minimum phase, or more particularly in a region where it is not minimum phase, the EQ will not produce the results we would like. It may still be possible to achieve a flat response, but correcting the phase response would elude us. It is simply not possible" On the contrary Dirac Live is a mixed-phase solution so it can successfully apply a full bandwidth correction of room behaviour, which is mixed-phase. We explain that as follows: "Infinitely many different filters can be designed to have the exact same magnitude response. They differ only in their impulse response. Therefore, it is useful to classify filters according to how their impulse responses behave. Two commonly used filter classes in audio applications are minimum-phase filters and linear-phase filters. They are two special cases that are relatively easy to design, but that come with tightly constrained impulse response characteristics. A minimum-phase filter, by definition, is constrained to apply only the smallest possible delay to the signal given a desired magnitude response. A linear-phase filter, by definition, applies a delay which is constant across the whole frequency range. Therefore, neither of these two filter designs can make a desired change to the phase or impulse response, unless the desired change is exactly the particular change they make by definition. Minimum-phase and linear-phase filters may even worsen both the impulse response and the magnitude response of a system, simply by applying their magnitude response corrections at the wrong time. A more difficult design task is to make a mixed-phase filter that matches a desired magnitude response while also having a customized impulse response. A properly designed mixed-phase filter can make significant improvements to the impulse response of a sound system at the listening position" Ciao, Flavio Please please please mods have this post moved to another new thread! I would hate to see this topic buried here when it would be much better put to use for all of us to learn from. Flavio, welcome to the Lounge and don't let us crazy folks scare you off. |
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Post by teklock on Jan 30, 2014 13:48:28 GMT -5
I think Dan's just trying to do what's best for his customers in this case. lol, that's funny! |
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Post by bootman on Jan 30, 2014 13:49:04 GMT -5
Or maybe HDMI 2.0 will solve many of the issues inherent in the previous HDCP & HDMI implementations Yes, sure, all of them. It's quite refreshing to see that in Emotivaland everything looks so much brighter than in real life. I'm jealous I know what kind of post this and your previous one here as well. You are better than this markus. Don't be an a-hole when I know you have much useful knowledge to share. |
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Post by markusv2 on Jan 30, 2014 13:49:32 GMT -5
I'm from Dirac Research and my point of view is admittedly biased, but to sweeten the waiting I'd like to explain why Dirac Live in its XMC-1 incarnation, is different from traditional good minimum-phase solutions like Audissey and others. Let me quote an excerpt from the REW's measurement software developer site (www.hometheatershack.com): "Minimum phase systems can be inverted, which means that a filter can be designed that, if applied to the system, would produce a flat response and correct the phase response at the same time. That is clearly a nice property to find if we want to apply EQ. If we apply EQ to a system that is not minimum phase, or more particularly in a region where it is not minimum phase, the EQ will not produce the results we would like. It may still be possible to achieve a flat response, but correcting the phase response would elude us. It is simply not possible" On the contrary Dirac Live is a mixed-phase solution so it can successfully apply a full bandwidth correction of room behaviour, which is mixed-phase. We explain that as follows: "Infinitely many different filters can be designed to have the exact same magnitude response. They differ only in their impulse response. Therefore, it is useful to classify filters according to how their impulse responses behave. Two commonly used filter classes in audio applications are minimum-phase filters and linear-phase filters. They are two special cases that are relatively easy to design, but that come with tightly constrained impulse response characteristics. A minimum-phase filter, by definition, is constrained to apply only the smallest possible delay to the signal given a desired magnitude response. A linear-phase filter, by definition, applies a delay which is constant across the whole frequency range. Therefore, neither of these two filter designs can make a desired change to the phase or impulse response, unless the desired change is exactly the particular change they make by definition. Minimum-phase and linear-phase filters may even worsen both the impulse response and the magnitude response of a system, simply by applying their magnitude response corrections at the wrong time. A more difficult design task is to make a mixed-phase filter that matches a desired magnitude response while also having a customized impulse response. A properly designed mixed-phase filter can make significant improvements to the impulse response of a sound system at the listening position" Ciao, Flavio Wrong thread? By the way, it's Audyssey not Audissey. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2014 13:53:10 GMT -5
I think Dan's just trying to do what's best for his customers in this case. lol, that's funny! Not sure why you'd think it's funny - minor delay and a more functional and future proof product. *shrug* Seems to be a win all around including for my cat who loves to sleep on top of the Denon, she'll have her warm seat a few weeks longer. I'd love to see some pics of the updated chassis though.... Anyone got their email from Emotiva today yet ? |
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Post by repeetavx on Jan 30, 2014 13:54:59 GMT -5
Hi Flavio, welcome to the Lounge. I'm looking forward to your knowledgeable input on all things Dirac.
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Post by teklock on Jan 30, 2014 13:56:35 GMT -5
If it were just a couple of weeks it wouldn't be a big deal, but it's not. I will bet anything that they will not get this out before this summer with the changes they announced. So what are you buying instead? Oh that right, you are not getting this anyway.  I'm not right away either so I'm not affected (like you) either way but you don't see me bitching about dates like it's costing ME $$$. You just like to stir the pot.  Is this for me? Not sure why you would say that, because yes I was buying a XMC. |
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Post by bootman on Jan 30, 2014 13:59:56 GMT -5
So what are you buying instead? Oh that right, you are not getting this anyway. I'm not right away either so I'm not affected (like you) either way but you don't see me bitching about dates like it's costing ME $$$. You just like to stir the pot. Is this for me? Not sure why you would say that, because yes I was buying a XMC. I misquoted you and actually apologized for it here. emotivalounge.proboards.com/post/609106/threadSorry about that. |
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Post by jmilton on Jan 30, 2014 14:03:04 GMT -5
OK gotta go check my email...... Not yet, and I just looked. On a side note, you used one of those "push my button" words in your post; irregardless is one of those words that only became a word because so many people mistakenly used it. Why put "irr" before a word to mean the same thing? Yes, it's become acceptable, but it's like saying something is "so fun" instead of "so much fun," it just sounds off. I liked your post, by the way. Don't mind the side note, I'm just a little off this afternoon. Like flammable and inflammable? Irregardless, they mean the same thing. |
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Post by klinemj on Jan 30, 2014 14:03:06 GMT -5
Hi Flavio..welcome! We look forward to Dirac. One of our members did some measurements that backed up what you say about superiority of Dirac's approach vs that of Audyssey (however it is spelled...I can never get it right).
Mark
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Post by chaosrv on Jan 30, 2014 14:03:43 GMT -5
The XMC-1 can do analog audio without issue. Yes, it does, but again, not as many as I would like, so there is issue. I would have to use dual inputs and assign them to different stuff (assuming this is for sure doable as we are assuming), like running a CD player to the XLR analog 1 ins and a Turntable to the RCA jacks to the same analog 1 ins. This thing has 8 HDMI ins, 6 Digital ins, but falls a few inputs short on analog, at least for me. I would rather have seen more of those than 2 HDMI outputs, because I will probably never have a projector. Both would be preferable. Perhaps that's another reason for the delay, because they are adding more RCA analog inputs for good 'ol Bonzo. Legacy video I don't find quite as important myself, in my system, because since I run my VCR only a few times each year. Running a dedicated cord directly to the TV and switching inputs there doesn't kill me. But I still want the audio to go through my surround speaker system, hence the need for the analog ins. You bring up a valid point, you do have a lot of sources with which you would like to use analog inputs. Choice is always important. Looking at the back panel of the XMC-1 currently on the site, there isn't enough real estate to fit more inputs. They'd need to increase it to a 4 RU size. Have you considered a stereo pre-amp or using the digital (non HDMI) outputs from your equipment? I can't say about your CD players but I am pretty certain the DAC implementation in the XMC-1 will be superior to your DirecTV box. I *ahem* may be able to offer a good deal on a 1 year old XSP-1 soon. I am still trying to convince myself NOT to buy the Gen2 model but not doing a very good job of it... |
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Post by geebo on Jan 30, 2014 14:08:10 GMT -5
I'm from Dirac Research and my point of view is admittedly biased, but to sweeten the waiting I'd like to explain why Dirac Live in its XMC-1 incarnation, is different from traditional good minimum-phase solutions like Audissey and others. Let me quote an excerpt from the REW's measurement software developer site (www.hometheatershack.com): "Minimum phase systems can be inverted, which means that a filter can be designed that, if applied to the system, would produce a flat response and correct the phase response at the same time. That is clearly a nice property to find if we want to apply EQ. If we apply EQ to a system that is not minimum phase, or more particularly in a region where it is not minimum phase, the EQ will not produce the results we would like. It may still be possible to achieve a flat response, but correcting the phase response would elude us. It is simply not possible" On the contrary Dirac Live is a mixed-phase solution so it can successfully apply a full bandwidth correction of room behaviour, which is mixed-phase. We explain that as follows: "Infinitely many different filters can be designed to have the exact same magnitude response. They differ only in their impulse response. Therefore, it is useful to classify filters according to how their impulse responses behave. Two commonly used filter classes in audio applications are minimum-phase filters and linear-phase filters. They are two special cases that are relatively easy to design, but that come with tightly constrained impulse response characteristics. A minimum-phase filter, by definition, is constrained to apply only the smallest possible delay to the signal given a desired magnitude response. A linear-phase filter, by definition, applies a delay which is constant across the whole frequency range. Therefore, neither of these two filter designs can make a desired change to the phase or impulse response, unless the desired change is exactly the particular change they make by definition. Minimum-phase and linear-phase filters may even worsen both the impulse response and the magnitude response of a system, simply by applying their magnitude response corrections at the wrong time. A more difficult design task is to make a mixed-phase filter that matches a desired magnitude response while also having a customized impulse response. A properly designed mixed-phase filter can make significant improvements to the impulse response of a sound system at the listening position" Ciao, Flavio Thanks very much for the input, Flavio. Don't be a stranger around here! My experiences with the Dirac trial have been very favorable and I am very much looking forward to it in the XMC-1. |
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Post by markusv2 on Jan 30, 2014 14:08:14 GMT -5
Yes, sure, all of them. It's quite refreshing to see that in Emotivaland everything looks so much brighter than in real life. I'm jealous I know what kind of post this and your previous one here as well. You are better than this markus. Don't be an a-hole when I know you have much useful knowledge to share. And you think calling me names will bring out the best in me? |
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Post by markusv2 on Jan 30, 2014 14:09:31 GMT -5
Hi Flavio..welcome! We look forward to Dirac. One of our members did some measurements that backed up what you say about superiority of Dirac's approach vs that of Audyssey (however it is spelled...I can never get it right). Mark Now this is interesting. Could you post a link where the "superiority of Dirac's approach " was shown? |
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