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Post by chicagorspec on Dec 13, 2018 20:40:57 GMT -5
Isn't it interesting how if you agree with the Lounge "group-think" on a specific topic, you're liked, quoted, and referred to again and again. But should any opinion vary from the "Lounge orthodoxy" the post immediately gets quoted multiple times by a wide variety of stalwarts telling you how wrong you are and eventually cursing you. Different websites seem to have their own subcultures that are NEVER to be dismissed or even questioned. Some sites just love a particular brand of speakers to the disdain of all others, for example. And often, an influential "cult" within the subculture of the website can shift the entire focus of the site. Lately the "streamer-cabal" has hijacked the Emotiva Lounge (to a large extent) and anyone who is skeptical, but hasn't heard the devices that are being championed is disdained and "shouted down." Even such a technical luminary as Mr. Keith Levkof is dismissed as ignorant in the face of the latest cult. And next year, it will probably be a different tweak "discovery" that the Lounge luminaries will be touting. Want proof? Try to post on this Lounge about how a specific interconnect, speaker wire, or power cord made a change in your system. You'll instantly be told (repeatedly) that it's technically impossible, and that you're a victim of expectation bias or some other malaise. If you try to tell the dismissers that they should try it for themselves, you'll be further ridiculed. Yet this is VERY similar to what's happened (in an affirmative rather than a dismissive standpoint) for the Rendu and SOtM devices. They change the sound for the better, period. Don't disagree. If you don't think so, then you're wrong. If you haven't heard one, then you can have no opinion. Yet there are MANY reasons why consumers may have no interest in these devices: Don't stream over an Ethernet network and all connections are direct Don't like USB interface for whatever reason Don't use Roon or the other "proprietary" protocols, but am limited to Plug-And-Play DLNA (that has multiple negative issues of its own) Can't afford the entry fee to use one of these devices The money that such a device would cost would be much better spent on (take your pick) - better speakers/components/software or room treatments Etc. And yes, I DO understand that having no interest is different from being skeptical. But I'm trying to step back and look at the situation from a broader perspective. And I just find it interesting... Boomzilla If you're that put out by the behavior of others on the Lounge, you could always spend less time on the Lounge and use the extra time listening to more music. There's no prize for post count here, nor for endlessly arguing with people who aren't worth arguing with about topics that aren't worth arguing about.
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 13, 2018 22:35:28 GMT -5
I'd spent 30 minutes composing a reply, and then my ISP gave me a 404 and I lost it all. Sorry. I think you know me. I'll gladly delete my last post if you like. I am really not trying to offend anyone just saying where I am. Not at all, brubacca - Let me try again (and this time, I'll copy the post BEFORE I hit the "create post" button! I appreciate your honesty and your knowledgable opinions, brubacca. And I don't say that often enough. So thank you for not only saying what you think, but for also doing it in a gentlemanly way. We often lose our ability to disagree civilly. This is epidemic in society - Look at Congress! And were we to all agree on everything, what a boring world it would be. My post wasn't about you in any way, brubacca, but more about the general sociology of online forums. So please don't take anything I said personally - it isn't about you at all. And yes, we all get overly stubborn from time to time (I'm as much or more guilty of this than others). And I further agree with every word you said in that post. So consider this thread, in particular, as "outside" the normal Lounge - and my speculations here (rarely structured and often stream-of-consciousness) are neither directed at individuals, nor intended to inflict blame or harm. So thanks again for your feedback, and just consider this thread a Boomzilla blog. And should you find anything here to disagree with, I'll be the first to admit that I may be wrong... Cordially - Glenn
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 13, 2018 22:38:09 GMT -5
If you're that put out by the behavior of others on the Lounge, you could always spend less time on the Lounge and use the extra time listening to more music. There's no prize for post count here, nor for endlessly arguing with people who aren't worth arguing with about topics that aren't worth arguing about. But I'm not put out at all, chicagorspec - Apologies if it seemed that way. Please see my reply above. And listening to more music is ALWAYS a good suggestion. Peace - Boom PS - Sometimes I'm part of the "Lounge cabal" as well, but I seem to (as you point out) cause more friction than most because I'm a poor fit. Alas - I'm compelled to call it as I hear it. And sometimes (often?) I can be wrong. Should anyone be uninterested in or persistently irritated by my posts, then feel free to ignore them. I won't be offended.
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Post by adaboy on Dec 13, 2018 23:55:33 GMT -5
Isn't it interesting how if you agree with the Lounge "group-think" on a specific topic, you're liked, quoted, and referred to again and again. But should any opinion vary from the "Lounge orthodoxy" the post immediately gets quoted multiple times by a wide variety of stalwarts telling you how wrong you are and eventually cursing you. Different websites seem to have their own subcultures that are NEVER to be dismissed or even questioned. Some sites just love a particular brand of speakers to the disdain of all others, for example. And often, an influential "cult" within the subculture of the website can shift the entire focus of the site. Lately the "streamer-cabal" has hijacked the Emotiva Lounge (to a large extent) and anyone who is skeptical, but hasn't heard the devices that are being championed is disdained and "shouted down." Even such a technical luminary as Mr. Keith Levkof is dismissed as ignorant in the face of the latest cult. And next year, it will probably be a different tweak "discovery" that the Lounge luminaries will be touting. Want proof? Try to post on this Lounge about how a specific interconnect, speaker wire, or power cord made a change in your system. You'll instantly be told (repeatedly) that it's technically impossible, and that you're a victim of expectation bias or some other malaise. If you try to tell the dismissers that they should try it for themselves, you'll be further ridiculed. Yet this is VERY similar to what's happened (in an affirmative rather than a dismissive standpoint) for the Rendu and SOtM devices. They change the sound for the better, period. Don't disagree. If you don't think so, then you're wrong. If you haven't heard one, then you can have no opinion. Yet there are MANY reasons why consumers may have no interest in these devices: Don't stream over an Ethernet network and all connections are direct Don't like USB interface for whatever reason Don't use Roon or the other "proprietary" protocols, but am limited to Plug-And-Play DLNA (that has multiple negative issues of its own) Can't afford the entry fee to use one of these devices The money that such a device would cost would be much better spent on (take your pick) - better speakers/components/software or room treatments Etc. And yes, I DO understand that having no interest is different from being skeptical. But I'm trying to step back and look at the situation from a broader perspective. And I just find it interesting... Boomzilla ☝️ Was my motivation for starting the Receiver thread. Thanks Boom
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Dec 14, 2018 6:26:54 GMT -5
Interesting on the COAX...I've tried USB, Coax, and Optical out from a device (PC and Sonos Connect) into my DAC and heard zero differences.
Mark
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 14, 2018 6:52:45 GMT -5
Hi klinemj - I THINK I hear differences, but they're small ones. Could I pick them out in the mythical double-blind test? I'd doubt it. With maybe, but only maybe, the exception of the TOSLINK optical interface. I'd be more confident in picking that one out (as inferior) in a blind test. In other words, were I ranking sound quality on a one to 10 scale, with 10 being the best, I'd rank the coaxial input as a 10, the USB as an eight (or a nine on a good day), and the optical as about a six. The DLNA Ethernet interface would be but a four. Why? Because of the variability of DLNA - I've caught it converting my 44.1 CD files to MP3 in the background without telling me and I DO hear that difference. The variability of the DLNA protocol was what finally prompted me to leave J-River and move to Roon. The Roon files (so far as I've been able to tell) always arrive at the destination in the same format as they left the source drive. This alone may be why some claim that Roon sounds better than J-River (but it may not - I don't really know). These things may also be DAC-specific. Never any shortage of mysteries...
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Post by fbczar on Dec 14, 2018 9:07:13 GMT -5
Isn't it interesting how if you agree with the Lounge "group-think" on a specific topic, you're liked, quoted, and referred to again and again. But should any opinion vary from the "Lounge orthodoxy" the post immediately gets quoted multiple times by a wide variety of stalwarts telling you how wrong you are and eventually cursing you. Different websites seem to have their own subcultures that are NEVER to be dismissed or even questioned. Some sites just love a particular brand of speakers to the disdain of all others, for example. And often, an influential "cult" within the subculture of the website can shift the entire focus of the site. Lately the "streamer-cabal" has hijacked the Emotiva Lounge (to a large extent) and anyone who is skeptical, but hasn't heard the devices that are being championed is disdained and "shouted down." Even such a technical luminary as Mr. Keith Levkof is dismissed as ignorant in the face of the latest cult. And next year, it will probably be a different tweak "discovery" that the Lounge luminaries will be touting. Want proof? Try to post on this Lounge about how a specific interconnect, speaker wire, or power cord made a change in your system. You'll instantly be told (repeatedly) that it's technically impossible, and that you're a victim of expectation bias or some other malaise. If you try to tell the dismissers that they should try it for themselves, you'll be further ridiculed. Yet this is VERY similar to what's happened (in an affirmative rather than a dismissive standpoint) for the Rendu and SOtM devices. They change the sound for the better, period. Don't disagree. If you don't think so, then you're wrong. If you haven't heard one, then you can have no opinion. Yet there are MANY reasons why consumers may have no interest in these devices: Don't stream over an Ethernet network and all connections are direct Don't like USB interface for whatever reason Don't use Roon or the other "proprietary" protocols, but am limited to Plug-And-Play DLNA (that has multiple negative issues of its own) Can't afford the entry fee to use one of these devices The money that such a device would cost would be much better spent on (take your pick) - better speakers/components/software or room treatments Etc. And yes, I DO understand that having no interest is different from being skeptical. But I'm trying to step back and look at the situation from a broader perspective. And I just find it interesting... Boomzilla Boom, Do you really believe the following is what happened relative to the microRendu or devices like it? " Lately the "streamer-cabal" has hijacked the Emotiva Lounge (to a large extent) and anyone who is skeptical, but hasn't heard the devices that are being championed is disdained and "shouted down." Even such a technical luminary as Mr. Keith Levkof is dismissed as ignorant in the face of the latest cult." In fact, the opposite is true. In the early positive posts related to devices like the microRendu those who championed the microRendu were "disdained and shouted down". If you posted you had heard a microRendu and it improved the sound of a system, the immediate response was that it could not possibly be true. Heaven forbid that the counter-response was to recommend that a microRendu should be listened to before being dismissed out of hand. Those supporting the microRendu were hardly the majority. Of course, as people began to actually listen to the microRendu an amazing thing happened; they found the microRendu improved the sound of their system.
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Post by garbulky on Dec 14, 2018 10:50:13 GMT -5
I think B'zilla is saying the opposite of what you guys are thinking. He is saying he likes the MR but people that haven't heard it are skeptical and are shutting down the opinions of people that have.
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Post by fbczar on Dec 14, 2018 14:02:58 GMT -5
I think B'zilla is saying the opposite of what you guys are thinking. He is saying he likes the MR but people that haven't heard it are skeptical and are shutting down the opinions of people that have. Lately the "streamer-cabal" has hijacked the Emotiva Lounge (to a large extent) and anyone who is skeptical, but hasn't heard the devices that are being championed is disdained and "shouted down." Even such a technical luminary as Mr. Keith Levkof is dismissed as ignorant in the face of the latest cult. That is not what he wrote.
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 14, 2018 14:44:12 GMT -5
...as people began to actually listen to the microRendu an amazing thing happened; they found the microRendu improved the sound of their system. I know - I'm one of them! Boom, Do you really believe the following is what happened relative to the microRendu or devices like it? ...In the early positive posts related to devices like the microRendu those who championed the microRendu were "disdained and shouted down". If you posted you had heard a microRendu and it improved the sound of a system, the immediate response was that it could not possibly be true...Those supporting the microRendu were hardly the majority. You're right - Inertia had to be overcome before the Renduites came into prominence. And despite the fact that the Renduites are NOT an actual majority, they are the "influential few" - which is the part of this that I find interesting. I'm not "against" or "for" the Rendu-cabal (despite, I guess, being a member of that group myself). So let me say again that the thing I find interesting has NOTHING to do with streaming devices and most everything to do with sociology (in its loosest definition) as it applies to online forums. In other words - On most every online forum that I've visited, I see a similar pattern. The range of forum-goers ranges from: Occasional visitors, who virtually never post Lurkers, who rarely post Sharp-shooters, who post only about issues that they care deeply about (and usually to disagree with a previous post that offends them) Citizens - who both take from and contribute to the forum discussions The "influential few" who are the movers and shakers who define a forum's zeitgeist I offer no opinion on whether this is good, bad, or indifferent. But I see it enough to recognize it. And THAT is what I'm trying to talk about. Cheers - Boom
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Post by brubacca on Dec 14, 2018 16:14:25 GMT -5
Boom,
Now I understand what you are saying. I've been a bit thick headed recently. Need more wine/music less internet/typing.
Although I have dropped a couple other forums that I used to frequent. I'm not sure, but my new years resolution may be reducing internet time to less than music time.
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Post by garbulky on Dec 14, 2018 17:01:05 GMT -5
I think B'zilla is saying the opposite of what you guys are thinking. He is saying he likes the MR but people that haven't heard it are skeptical and are shutting down the opinions of people that have. Lately the "streamer-cabal" has hijacked the Emotiva Lounge (to a large extent) and anyone who is skeptical, but hasn't heard the devices that are being championed is disdained and "shouted down." Even such a technical luminary as Mr. Keith Levkof is dismissed as ignorant in the face of the latest cult. That is not what he wrote. That quote actually means what I said, at least I think it does? Edit: On second read, I'm confused, but I'm reasonably sure his intentions were that people are being shouted down by people that have not actually tried the MR.
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Dec 14, 2018 17:27:52 GMT -5
oooh....the "renduites"!!! I love it!
But, all kidding aside...this is one of those things that the old saying "you have to see hear it to believe it" truly applies. It goes against pretty much everyone's common knowledge...certainly mine. I certainly understand why some would dismiss the whole family of products...there's a lot of hype and very little data (if any!). But, they are truly worth trying, in my humble opinion.
Mark
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Post by foggy1956 on Dec 14, 2018 17:54:36 GMT -5
Lately the "streamer-cabal" has hijacked the Emotiva Lounge (to a large extent) and anyone who is skeptical, but hasn't heard the devices that are being championed is disdained and "shouted down." Even such a technical luminary as Mr. Keith Levkof is dismissed as ignorant in the face of the latest cult. That is not what he wrote. That quote actually means what I said, at least I think it does? Edit: On second read, I'm confused, but I'm reasonably sure his intentions were that people are being shouted down by people that have not actually tried the MR. Nope
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Post by garbulky on Dec 14, 2018 18:50:31 GMT -5
That quote actually means what I said, at least I think it does? Edit: On second read, I'm confused, but I'm reasonably sure his intentions were that people are being shouted down by people that have not actually tried the MR. Nope Oh never mind then
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Dec 14, 2018 20:25:19 GMT -5
Errrr.... what he's saying is that people who haven't heard it, but are skeptical of it, are being shouted down by the people who like it. As one of those people who is skeptical of it (but who hasn't heard it).... I'll give the same response as I would to someone suggesting that I listen to a wonderful sounding new cable.... "If there's really something to this then I would expect the inventor or manufacturer to tell me what it changes... and to be able to provide measurements to back up their claim." "The fact that the manufacturer is unable or unwilling to explain why their device should do what they claim makes me doubt their claims." "I don't specifically disbelieve what anyone says they hear.... but I'm going to require a lot of convincing." And, yes, if someone presents a logical explanation as to why something should sound a certain way... And measurements to back up their claim that they have changed or improved what they claimed... I would probably be somewhat willing to trust my ears when they tell me I'm hearing what the measurements suggest I should be hearing... BUT.... When there is no logical explanation... And no measurements... And a claim that seems to contradict known science... The exact opposite is true... I'm inclined to want more serious proof... And, yes, that means hearing from people who had conducted actual double blind tests. And, yes, being "only human", I wouldn't necessarily trust my own ears either without some serious double blind testing. (If the science can't tell me if what I think I'm hearing makes sense or not... I'm going to want to verify my own fallible human judgment very carefully.) Boomzilla kindly offered to lend me his... However, to be completely honest, I currently don't have the time to assess it carefully enough to convince myself that I am or am not hearing a significant difference. (Regardless of what I might think I heard after listening to it for a few hours... I would not consider it to be a reliable or definitive conclusion.) Lately the "streamer-cabal" has hijacked the Emotiva Lounge (to a large extent) and anyone who is skeptical, but hasn't heard the devices that are being championed is disdained and "shouted down." Even such a technical luminary as Mr. Keith Levkof is dismissed as ignorant in the face of the latest cult. That is not what he wrote. That quote actually means what I said, at least I think it does? Edit: On second read, I'm confused, but I'm reasonably sure his intentions were that people are being shouted down by people that have not actually tried the MR.
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 15, 2018 2:54:06 GMT -5
What KeithL hasn't said (and correct me if I'm wrong, Keith) is that his system is currently set up without any Ethernet streaming at all. Therefore, he'd have to totally and simultaneously change a BUNCH of things to be able to test a streaming device. Even then, how would he know whether any change he heard was due to all the OTHER significant changes or to the streaming device itself? Some folks just don't need a streamer...
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Dec 15, 2018 9:18:29 GMT -5
Some folks just don't need a streamer... Maybe I should try the rendu with my 8-tracks... Mark
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 18, 2018 3:12:29 GMT -5
Well, the JL Audio CR-1 electronic crossover is installed, up, and running. The hard part for any such device is "does it mess up the high-pass side?" I haven't completely decided the answer yet, but it definitely doesn't sound too shabby. I still need to level-match phase the individual subs to their satellites, but can do that fairly quickly and easily now that I've got a microphone stand to mount my SPL-meter on. And in fact, the absolute accuracy of the SPL meter won't even matter for these tests - you could use a SPL app on an iPhone or iPad and be just as accurate. Some people dispute the previous statement, but they are mistaken.
Now when the Stealth DC-2 comes out, my need for the JL crossover may become moot. Have to wait and see on that option.
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 19, 2018 10:54:46 GMT -5
Comments my audio amigo, Russell forwarded to me: Yes, transformers do matter. I have played with "EI", "O", and toroid types. The "EI" beats all but is generally more expensive if a good quality core is used.
Regulators are also very important to audio as well as decoupling. I prefer shunt type regulation. It is a bit difficult to deal with as most shunts can be noisy. Active regulation is great if the feedback loop (error loop) is fast enough to do its job.
Series type line conditioners are the worst if any form of transient current is required. I proved this at one of the audio shows using a higher end series type conditioner vs the RGPC Power Company. The series type lost over 2 volts when a 1500 watt load was placed on it. The Power Company lost less than .3 volts.
Capacitors are a matter of taste (and myth). It is more important to get the right size (in microfarads) as the atomic bomb on the ants nest is very detrimental to the sound. Bill Senac and I proved that when he was experimenting with Pi network supplies. He heaped 2 farads (yes, FARADS) on the output of the PI network of his Marantz nine power amplifiers. The amplifier would play for a few minutes when the B+ rectifiers were disconnected but was a dull and lifeless. Removing the capacitors a bit at a time made the amplifier come back to life. If I remember, 360 MFD was the "break point" where the amplifier started to dull out. Quite a contradiction to "the more capacitance the better"!
On a number of "audiophile" power supplies, they have too much capacitance. This is probably a reason the cheaper ones sound better.
And, teflon wire is dreadful! Many designers stopped using it a long time ago. Too much heat shrink causes a similar problem.
Richard Gray(owner of Richard Gray's Power Company - website HERE
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