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Post by Boomzilla on Apr 19, 2019 22:06:22 GMT -5
About 15" from the wall behind them - relatively widely spaced - no toe-in whatsoever.
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Post by Boomzilla on Apr 20, 2019 20:57:56 GMT -5
And I'm going to risk "the wrath of the wire-weenies" by even asking this question, but here goes: My audio amigo, Russell, says that he uses unbalanced interconnect cables because he can hear the differences between them. Now Russell isn't a wire-snob by any conventional metric; his collection includes discontinued cables from 1970s manufacturers, home-made wonders, and a (very) few commercial cables. Cost, in Russell's opinion, is not correlated in any positive way to sound, quality, or value. His auditory impressions matter - nothing else. But he also contends that he deliberately chooses unbalanced over balanced interconnects because he generally can't hear differences in balanced cables, and wants to be able to tweak with his collection of unbalanced ones. Ignoring, for the moment, the "there are no real differences" argument, and assuming that Russell really CAN hear differences in his unbalanced interconnects, why can't he hear any differences in balanced interconnects? Others, such as emotivate, my audio amiga, Annette, and another audio bud, WMS all use unbalanced interconnects (some of startling expense) but not balanced ones. Why?
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Post by monkumonku on Apr 20, 2019 21:36:36 GMT -5
And I'm going to risk "the wrath of the wire-weenies" by even asking this question, but here goes: My audio amigo, Russell, says that he uses unbalanced interconnect cables because he can hear the differences between them. Now Russell isn't a wire-snob by any conventional metric; his collection includes discontinued cables from 1970s manufacturers, home-made wonders, and a (very) few commercial cables. Cost, in Russell's opinion, is not correlated in any positive way to sound, quality, or value. His auditory impressions matter - nothing else. But he also contends that he deliberately chooses unbalanced over balanced interconnects because he generally can't hear differences in balanced cables, and wants to be able to tweak with his collection of unbalanced ones. Ignoring, for the moment, the "there are no real differences" argument, and assuming that Russell really CAN hear differences in his unbalanced interconnects, why can't he hear any differences in balanced interconnects? Others, such as emotivate, my audio amiga, Annette, and another audio bud, WMS all use unbalanced interconnects (some of startling expense) but not balanced ones. Why? I think the question ought to be, why should he hear any difference? Aside from higher gain using balanced, if they are level-matched there should be no more difference between unbalanced and balanced cables than there are differences among cables in general (assuming he doesn't have long cable runs or other issues that require balanced). You can't ignore the "there are no real differences" argument, because that's what answers your question.
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Post by garbulky on Apr 20, 2019 22:34:27 GMT -5
He may have an idea.
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Post by emotivate on Apr 21, 2019 12:52:43 GMT -5
And I'm going to risk "the wrath of the wire-weenies" by even asking this question, but here goes: My audio amigo, Russell, says that he uses unbalanced interconnect cables because he can hear the differences between them. Now Russell isn't a wire-snob by any conventional metric; his collection includes discontinued cables from 1970s manufacturers, home-made wonders, and a (very) few commercial cables. Cost, in Russell's opinion, is not correlated in any positive way to sound, quality, or value. His auditory impressions matter - nothing else. But he also contends that he deliberately chooses unbalanced over balanced interconnects because he generally can't hear differences in balanced cables, and wants to be able to tweak with his collection of unbalanced ones. Ignoring, for the moment, the "there are no real differences" argument, and assuming that Russell really CAN hear differences in his unbalanced interconnects, why can't he hear any differences in balanced interconnects? Others, such as emotivate , my audio amiga, Annette, and another audio bud, WMS all use unbalanced interconnects (some of startling expense) but not balanced ones. Why? I went with unbalanced cables because at the time of cable purchases, my UMC-1 only had the RCA connecters. The brand I chose,(at that time) Morrow Audio used solid silver plated copper, unshielded wires that had big audible benefits in my system. Now I have an XMC-1 with balanced connecters as well and have considered getting or making my own SPC wire balanced I.C's. Only drawbacks are greater expense, and lack of availability of pre made cables made like I would want them, leaving me to basically making my own and experimenting to see if there is a difference in unbalanced and balanced. I do have a pair of XPA-1's to take advantage of the fully balanced signal to the front 2 channels from the XMC-1, but have not done this yet. I would say the amount you spend on cabling has little relevance on SQ, but the materials you choose DO have a big impact on SQ. I don't know if this helps , but my 2 cents worth of experience on the subject.
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KeithL
Administrator
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Post by KeithL on Apr 22, 2019 10:57:37 GMT -5
There are actually MORE that two questions here - if you think about it for a minute..... but the most important one is rarely, if ever, considered.
Q1: Why SHOULD there be an audible difference between cables?
A: There shouldn't.
An audio interconnect is doing a very simple job - delivering a low-level signal, of limited frequency range, over a short distance, under reasonable environmental conditions. In engineering terms, the signal levels, frequency range, and other requirements for audio are extremely trivial - and so shouldn't be difficult to achieve flawlessly. (There is no technical reason whatsoever why a well designed $5 interconnect cable cannot deliver "audibly perfect" performance; it's just not that difficult.)
Likewise, in engineering terms, properly designed audio equipment should NOT be at all sensitive to the minor differences that do exist between cables. (And, yes, that means that, if a piece of gear sounds very different with different cables, then there are flaws in the design of that gear.)
Q2: Are there in fact differences between different interconnect cables?
A: Sometimes. The reality is that, even though properly designed equipment should be "agnostic" to the cable you use, there's no such thing as a perfect piece of equipment. So, even though a good designer does their best to design a piece of equipment that will work the same with ANY standard cable - they may not succeed perfectly. There are minor differences in capacitance, inductance, and even resistance between different types of cable - and some audio equipment may be sensitive to those differences. For example, if your preamp has a somewhat high output impedance, and the interconnect you use between it and your power amp has a somewhat high capacitance, it may roll off the high end a little bit. (A "well-designed" preamp shouldn't have a high output impedance - but a "well designed" cable shouldn't have a lot of capacitance - but, as we said, nothing is perfect.)
The result is that certain cables, when used with certain equipment, may produce a small but audible difference. Q3 (and this is the big one): Are expensive or fancy cables BETTER?
A: The answer here is generally that they are not. Virtually all of the legitimate differences that are likely to occur due to differences between cables are not matters of "audio quality"; they are simply "slight differences in parameters". For example, when used with a certain preamp, one cable may sound slightly different than another, because one has slightly more capacitance than the other.
However, if that's the difference, what you're talking about would be a difference of a fraction of a dB in high-frequency response. And, while technically one may be more accurate than the other, that difference is MUCH smaller than the difference between different speaker models.
So, yes, the reality is that there may in fact be tiny differences in sound between different cables. However, those differences are usually remarkably tiny and, even worse, they are NOT necessarily improvements. Switching from plain old copper wire to pure single crystal silver will make about as much difference as moving your listening chair forward six inches (if even that much). (And, just as with moving your chair six inches, there's no reason to believe that the difference will deliver an improvement rather than a negative impact.) To say this as tactfully as possible: The VAST MAJORITY of claims about how specific metals or types of wire affect audio quality have little or no basis in actual fact. If you hear a difference when you listen to solid silver wire instead of copper, then it is a virtual certainty that you are imagining it; probably based on the price tags of both and not much else.
Q4: Which are better - balanced or unbalanced cables?
A: This is actually a complicated question... but which, in practice, often has a simple answer.
In MOST cases, it really doesn't make much difference.
- Balanced cables do a better job of not picking up hum and noise. This is an issue with very long cables, or in a very noisy environment, but not for most people. (This is why balanced cables make sense for subwoofers - because those cables tend to be longer and so are more likely to pick up noise.) (This is also why, if you have the option, balanced cables are the better choice, especially if you're using long cables, or the cables will be run in walls where you cannot easily change them later.)
- There are certain minor benefits to using a balanced connection between fully balanced differential gear. However, with modern equipment, these differences are pretty small. (Certain specific types of distortion may be reduced if you do so.... but distortion on modern equipment is usually low to begin with and this improvement isn't always realized.)
- The balanced and unbalanced inputs and outputs on equipment have slightly different signal paths. (This means that, ON A SPECIFIC PIECE OF GEAR, either the balanced or unbalanced input or out may sound better - simply because it's using a different part of the circuitry in the gear.) (However, this is going to depend on the particular gear involved, so you can't make a generalization that either is "usually" better.)
And I'm going to risk "the wrath of the wire-weenies" by even asking this question, but here goes: My audio amigo, Russell, says that he uses unbalanced interconnect cables because he can hear the differences between them. Now Russell isn't a wire-snob by any conventional metric; his collection includes discontinued cables from 1970s manufacturers, home-made wonders, and a (very) few commercial cables. Cost, in Russell's opinion, is not correlated in any positive way to sound, quality, or value. His auditory impressions matter - nothing else. But he also contends that he deliberately chooses unbalanced over balanced interconnects because he generally can't hear differences in balanced cables, and wants to be able to tweak with his collection of unbalanced ones. Ignoring, for the moment, the "there are no real differences" argument, and assuming that Russell really CAN hear differences in his unbalanced interconnects, why can't he hear any differences in balanced interconnects? Others, such as emotivate , my audio amiga, Annette, and another audio bud, WMS all use unbalanced interconnects (some of startling expense) but not balanced ones. Why? I think the question ought to be, why should he hear any difference? Aside from higher gain using balanced, if they are level-matched there should be no more difference between unbalanced and balanced cables than there are differences among cables in general (assuming he doesn't have long cable runs or other issues that require balanced). You can't ignore the "there are no real differences" argument, because that's what answers your question.
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Post by Boomzilla on Apr 23, 2019 6:07:39 GMT -5
...Why SHOULD there be an audible difference between cables? A: There shouldn't... Agreed ...Are there in fact differences between different interconnect cables? A: Sometimes... Agreed ...Are expensive or fancy cables BETTER? A: The answer here is generally that they are not... Agreed ...Which are better - balanced or unbalanced cables? A: This is actually a complicated question... but which, in practice, often has a simple answer. In MOST cases, it really doesn't make much difference... Agreed So that said, several factors would argue that speaker wires have the potential to have greater differences than interconnects. Those things include: Unlike audio component inputs, speaker impedances vary widely (and sometimes wildly) in resistance, capacitance, and inductance. Speaker wires are generally longer than interconnects, so the characteristics of the wire have the potential to affect the signal more. Because the resistance of speakers is significantly lower than that of a component input, capacitance and inductance of the wires have a greater impact. Resistance losses are far greater with speaker wires than with interconnects. Therefore, at least in theory, the most "wire immune" configuration would be a longer, balanced interconnect from the preamp to the power amp with a (short as possible) speaker wire from the amp to the speaker. This configuration would utilize the best characteristics of each connector while minimizing potential non-linearities as well. But of course, to implement such a scheme, one would need a balanced preamplifier and (mono) balanced power amplifiers. And the theoretical benefits may not justify the actual expenses (unless you just happen to have such components already). Boom
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KeithL
Administrator
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Post by KeithL on Apr 23, 2019 10:26:09 GMT -5
Pretty well everything you said about speaker cables is correct. (Although the lower impedance of the speaker load, while it would make inductance proportionally more significant, would actually make capacitance proportionally less so.) However, I would also point out a few additional things, which are quite important, and are very often overlooked.
First off, most people understand that the contact resistance in the connectors you use on speaker cables is important, but few fully understand the details...
Start by remembering that the resistance in a speaker cable is defined by the total round trip path the signal must travel. So, for example, if you have "a 10 foot speaker cable", for purposes of wire resistance, the signal is going through 20 feet of wire and four connectors.
Now, the actual resistance of short lengths of even relatively thin cable is relatively low.
For example, the resistance of 18 gauge wire is 0.007 Ohms per foot (6.38 Ohms per 1000 ft) - the resistance of 12 gauge wire is about 1/4 of that. Note that this is enough resistance to somewhat reduce the damping factor - but so is the resistance of the internal parts of the speaker itself. (For example, a typical woofer's voice coil consists of several feet of relatively thin copper wire.)
However, since even heavy wire is relatively cheap, it's a good idea to use at least 12 or 14 gauge for even short distances, and 10 gauge or so for longer runs.
However, since there are four connectors involved, the resistance between the wire and the connector can easily exceed the resistance of the wire itself. And, likewise, the resistance between the connector and what you have it connected to can also easily exceed that. So make VERY sure that banana plugs fit tightly, and that the speaker binding posts at both ends are kept nice and clean and tight... And that, if you use the sort of banana plugs that you attach to the wire, and tighten in place, they are really tight, and the wire is nice and shiny clean where it contacts them. (And, if you notice the wire starting to tarnish too much, it's a good idea to re-strip the ends every year or two so they remain nice and shiny.)
One other thing that is very important to note is this.... In terms of inductance and capacitance, "plain old two conductor zip cord" is actually quite GOOD. It's not the best... but it's plenty good enough for speaker cable.
There are some fancy sorts of wire that may have slightly lower inductance or capacitance - but the differences aren't actually significant. (And some fancy speaker cables have much HIGHER capacitance or inductance than plain old zip cord.)
Likewise, cable resistance is determined by the gauge of the wire involved.... 10 gauge stranded cable has about the same resistance as 10 gauge solid wire....
And so do cables of a given gauge that use strands of different diameters, or oddly shaped strands, or strands that are twisted together in unique and interesting ways. Most of the claims made for these sorts of things are... lacking in technical merit... And, to be quite honest, while some of them may actually deliver slightly better performance under unusual conditions, very few make any difference whatsoever with plain old audio signals.
Another common myth is that the material used to make wire makes a huge difference... for example "solid silver conductors". The reality there is that silver is in fact a better conductor of electricity than copper... about 5% better. So, for example, a 12 gauge solid silver cable will have lower resistance than a 12 gauge copper cable... However, a 10 gauge copper cable will have lower resistance than a 12 gauge silver cable - because it's much thicker (but 10 gauge copper costs a LOT less than 12 gauge silver.)
Silver plating is often applied to high-quality cable for a variety of reasons... While silver still tarnishes, it does so less rapidly than copper, and is affected less by certain adverse conditions (it also solders relatively well). Silver coating is also sometimes applied to cabling used for VERY high frequencies (high RF and microwave) because it conducts significantly better at those frequencies. And, because of skin effect, very high frequencies do in fact tend to travel around the outside surface of the wire rather than through the center. However, this effect is negligible at audio frequencies, when using relatively thick wires. (The amount of silver used in silver plating is also so tiny that it has virtually no effect on the cost.) The catch here is that, while silver wire, or silver-plated wire makes sense in microwave satellites, and maybe even in a microwave oven, it's not especially significant in AUDIO applications.
And, no, those fancy "long grain" and "single grain" alloys don't deliver a measurably cleaner audio signal either.
"Oxygen free copper" and "six nines pure OFC" are good to use - because the purer alloy is less prone to tarnishing and corrosion over time. However, it's worth noting that this is the normal quality for all good "commercial grade copper electrical wire" these days, as well as the majority of even "cheap hardware store speaker cable". (You should maybe look for it, although it isn't a big deal; just don't pay extra for it.)
...Why SHOULD there be an audible difference between cables? A: There shouldn't... Agreed ...Are there in fact differences between different interconnect cables? A: Sometimes... Agreed ...Are expensive or fancy cables BETTER? A: The answer here is generally that they are not... Agreed ...Which are better - balanced or unbalanced cables? A: This is actually a complicated question... but which, in practice, often has a simple answer. In MOST cases, it really doesn't make much difference... Agreed So that said, several factors would argue that speaker wires have the potential to have greater differences than interconnects. Those things include: Unlike audio component inputs, speaker impedances vary widely (and sometimes wildly) in resistance, capacitance, and inductance. Speaker wires are generally longer than interconnects, so the characteristics of the wire have the potential to affect the signal more. Because the resistance of speakers is significantly lower than that of a component input, capacitance and inductance of the wires have a greater impact. Resistance losses are far greater with speaker wires than with interconnects. Therefore, at least in theory, the most "wire immune" configuration would be a longer, balanced interconnect from the preamp to the power amp with a (short as possible) speaker wire from the amp to the speaker. This configuration would utilize the best characteristics of each connector while minimizing potential non-linearities as well. But of course, to implement such a scheme, one would need a balanced preamplifier and (mono) balanced power amplifiers. And the theoretical benefits may not justify the actual expenses (unless you just happen to have such components already). Boom
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Post by geeqner on Apr 24, 2019 9:14:47 GMT -5
AND in defense of Mr. Zilla's friend:
IF you feel that the cables that you choose to use slightly "color" the sound spectrum of your system in a way that YOU like / if it makes you HAPPY, then GO FOR IT! It's OK (but you really don't need our permission or approval)
I think that it's funny to see how some spend hundreds / thousands on "boutique" interconnects while the Inputs / Outputs of their components have INTERNAL interconnects (between the jacks and the circuit boards) consisting of simple short lengths of straight, "garden-variety" wire and/or short lengths of round or rectangular cross-section copper and/or plated steel or other non-exotic metals
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Post by Boomzilla on Apr 24, 2019 13:56:57 GMT -5
Hi geeqner - You're argument cleaves to the theory that "the weakest link in the chain limits the strength of the whole." While this is an absolutely valid argument for purely mechanical systems, the jury still seems to be out on whether or not it's valid for non-mechanical systems. The prevailing argument among those who claim to hear improvements (and sometimes significant improvements) from such things as interconnects, power cords, and speaker cables is "a very strong link somewhere in the chain averages out the weaker links." Herein lies the "premium power cord" argument, for example. Now the burden of proof is definitely on the proponent of the "strong link" theory, but my personal experience has shown that (at least in some circumstances) I CAN hear differences in speaker wires, some interconnects, and possibly power wires. Are these BIG differences? No. Are they worth a lot of money? No. But are they audible? Yes. So before we apply a mechanical theory to a non-mechanical system, it may be worth at least considering alternate theories that match our perceptions. Peace - Boom
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Post by Boomzilla on Apr 25, 2019 3:31:13 GMT -5
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Post by Boomzilla on Apr 25, 2019 14:41:08 GMT -5
Having LOTS of fun with the JBL L100 Classics. Back in the day, I owned a pair of the originals. - the ones with the "burn-your-ears-off" cone tweeter. They didn't last too long for me - I chose the AR-11a speakers instead. But the big JBLs were fun while they lasted. I played "Tommy" by The Who on them one day with my windows open and when I looked out the window, I had a small group of neighbors standing around outside grooving to the music.
Review on the Secrets site to come...
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Post by dsonyay on Apr 26, 2019 9:20:08 GMT -5
Are those the speakers used in Maxell's famous ad where the guy is seated in front of a speaker being blown by a mighty wind?
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novisnick
EmoPhile
CEO Secret Monoblock Society
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Post by novisnick on Apr 26, 2019 10:37:20 GMT -5
Are those the speakers used in Maxell's famous ad where the guy is seated in front of a speaker being blown by a mighty wind? This is the newer revision David
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Post by ttocs on Apr 26, 2019 11:50:43 GMT -5
boomzilla, are the plants arranged differently for acoustical effect?
I had my JBL L110's for 32 years of daily usage. Upon the need for a third recone of the woofers and one of the mids, and the tweeters finally getting goofy, I decided it was time to do it differently.
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klinemj
Emo VIPs
Honorary Emofest Scribe
Posts: 14,744
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Post by klinemj on Apr 26, 2019 12:36:18 GMT -5
Are those the speakers used in Maxell's famous ad where the guy is seated in front of a speaker being blown by a mighty wind? This is the newer revision David I always think it's nice that Dan has a picture of hemster on the wall in his office. Mark
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novisnick
EmoPhile
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Post by novisnick on Apr 26, 2019 12:44:57 GMT -5
This is the newer revision David I always think it's nice that Dan has a picture of hemster on the wall in his office. Mark They both may have been smoking something! LOL
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Post by HunTer on Apr 26, 2019 14:34:32 GMT -5
Hi Boom I suppose that is the shelf with the tubular base’s problem that you had spoke some time ago. If so, congratulations on the modification of the work. it looks really great! It seems that you finally managed to solve that problem. How did you do it? Those wheels casters look very strong. Are they the 300-lb rating - heavy-duty capacity you also needed? Do you have some other photos with more details? Thanks in advance
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Post by Boomzilla on Apr 26, 2019 21:11:22 GMT -5
Are those the speakers used in Maxell's famous ad where the guy is seated in front of a speaker being blown by a mighty wind? Exactly (except for the updating).
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Post by garbulky on Apr 26, 2019 23:13:27 GMT -5
Are those the speakers used in Maxell's famous ad where the guy is seated in front of a speaker being blown by a mighty wind? Exactly (except for the updating). Yep and that's Big Dan (founder of Emotiva in the chair and a pair of Emotiva Stealth 8 speakers)
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