lmr
Minor Hero
Posts: 77
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Post by lmr on Feb 14, 2014 21:37:56 GMT -5
I just didn't want a diy kit. Some day I may try it and if it is better then I can always sell what gear I don't want.
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Post by solidstate on Feb 15, 2014 19:58:39 GMT -5
I just didn't want a diy kit. Some day I may try it and if it is better then I can always sell what gear I don't want. All of those products can be bought assembled and ready to go. Just pointing that out for you... |
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Post by solidstate on Feb 15, 2014 20:24:48 GMT -5
I just didn't want a diy kit. Some day I may try it and if it is better then I can always sell what gear I don't want. How much did you pay for that McIntosh C2300 out of curiosity. |
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Post by pedrocols on Feb 15, 2014 20:30:10 GMT -5
I just didn't want a diy kit. Some day I may try it and if it is better then I can always sell what gear I don't want. How much did you pay for that McIntosh C2300 out of curiosity. Curiosity killed the cat.... |
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Post by solidstate on Feb 15, 2014 20:30:41 GMT -5
If you paid anything near list for the same money you could have scored two channels of Morris Kessler's magnum opus, John Chapman and Dave Slagle passive pre brilliance and a custom phono section. You could have found out if you like a triode or a pentode in your phono stage...
Ohh and still have a grand+ easy in your pocket brother you could have spent on a DDDAC1794 NOS on a single deck.
I know I'm just some stranger on a forum but DUDE...
I'm giving your the SECRETS TO REAL HIFI that your Mcintosh dealer doesn't want you to know about or any boutique dealer for that matter.
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Post by Gary Cook on Feb 16, 2014 19:14:14 GMT -5
wow Gary I had no idea... so are you saying an xsp 1 is better!!!!! I love mine.. cheers I don't know, I have had zero experience with an XSP-1. Whereas I have had to deal with C41 and C42 issues several times, so I can relate to them from first hand experience. Cheers Gary |
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Post by garbulky on Feb 16, 2014 19:31:44 GMT -5
two channels of Morris Kessler's magnum opus, John Chapman and Dave Slagle passive pre brilliance Could you tell me a bit more about these? maybe a link. Is the magnum opus an amp? I found no info on it. Also....I like passive pre-amps! Do share |
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Post by Gary Cook on Feb 16, 2014 19:57:08 GMT -5
But since you asked. He is talking about how the thing sounds. And gary is talking about the specs and the failures he encountered with the volume issue and pointing to the half voltage output as a reason why the thing sounds bad. Rightinla is saying that gary is focusing on very specific detail while ignoring that the pre-amp sounds really good and better than for instance an XSP-1 (according to him). So the analogy holds true. When you simply look at the mole on monroes face in great detail zoomed up, one could say ugh, anybody that has such an ugly spot right on their face must be ugly. But when looking at the whole person, they are beautiful. I was going to let this thread fade away as I've found many times that McIntosh users are difficult to deal with due to the their almost religious belief in the product. The fact is McIntosh is basically a non event outside of the USA, being home grown that's somewhat understandable. As an outsider so to speak, whether it's Made in the USA or not has no bearing on my critique or assessment. To answer the question, the problem I faced with the C41 with its ~50% supressed volume capability was that I couldn't honestly tell how good or bad it sounded in the large room with the ambient noise. I don't believe that this is "focusing on a very specific detail" it's a fundamental design flaw. One which the C42 shares. One that seriously affects its sound quality, as far as I concerned if I can't hear it properly it doesn't sound very good. As for the scratchy volume control, the same person who owned the C41 called me up a few months later (after the dinner party) and asked me to have a look at it as it was "crackling when adjusting the volume". He told me that he thought it must have been something I'd done when swapping it out because "McIntosh gear is built to last a lifetime" so it couldn't possibly be anything wrong with it. A quick look at the manual soon clarified what the actual cause was. The old dirty potentiometer, hadn't had one of those for years. I will admit his place is wide open, big room, large verandah, overlooking the harbour so exposed to sea breezes (salt water). Not exactly potentiometer friendly, but not a deliberate attempt to make a component fail either. A quick clean and spray fixed the problem, which resurfaced annually until he replaced the C41 with a C42. In which McIntosh saw fit to fix the potentiometer problem, about a decade after other manufacturers, but the volume problem still remains. I was at this same persons place for New Years Eve the year before last, it has a great view of the Sydney fireworks and the C42 still has the same problem, I can't hear it out on the verandah. This is much more to me than a mole on MM's face, and I sure as hell don't see it as unduly focusing on something minor. He also has a C2500 which has now had the HT bypass bug fixed in the software. The whingers about Emotiva software updates will be pleased (or not) to know that McIntosh isn't much better. In regards to the C2300 I'd suggest being aware of the volume control reset procedure, which needs doing when the knob looses its logic and the only way to adjust volume is via the remote control. Yes, I do have a lot of contact with McIntosh gear and it's far from perfect and to my way of thinking doesn't even come close to justifying its price point. My own personal view of course. Cheers Gary |
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Post by solidstate on Feb 16, 2014 20:11:31 GMT -5
two channels of Morris Kessler's magnum opus, John Chapman and Dave Slagle passive pre brilliance Could you tell me a bit more about these? maybe a link. Is the magnum opus an amp? I found no info on it. Also....I like passive pre-amps! Do share What I mean is that AT6000 amp is Morris's "magnum opus". mag·num o·pus ˈmagnəm ˈōpəs/ noun noun: magnum opus; plural noun: magnum opuses; plural noun: magna opera 1. a large and important work of art, music, or literature, esp. one regarded as the most important work of an artist or writer. If you're looking at a passive pre then check this out. www.bentaudio.com/The DAC I shared is this one. www.dddac.com/The other stuff was a bunch of phono preamps. I think the list I just gave is very special and CURRENT. PS the AT6000 JUST started shipping... |
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Post by RightinLA on Feb 16, 2014 20:18:30 GMT -5
I spent the weekend listening to the wonderful McIntosh gear that I own. It all sounded truly superb! The C42 played perfectly with the MC202 amp and without any perceptible noise. The MCD201 played a number of SACD's and CD's flawlessly. On the Technics 1200M3D, I played "The Beatles Live At The BBC", a the three record set which I enjoyed. No issues and no complaints. Guess I'm very lucky.  |
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Post by garbulky on Feb 16, 2014 22:44:12 GMT -5
But since you asked. He is talking about how the thing sounds. And gary is talking about the specs and the failures he encountered with the volume issue and pointing to the half voltage output as a reason why the thing sounds bad. Rightinla is saying that gary is focusing on very specific detail while ignoring that the pre-amp sounds really good and better than for instance an XSP-1 (according to him). So the analogy holds true. When you simply look at the mole on monroes face in great detail zoomed up, one could say ugh, anybody that has such an ugly spot right on their face must be ugly. But when looking at the whole person, they are beautiful. I was going to let this thread fade away as I've found many times that McIntosh users are difficult to deal with due to the their almost religious belief in the product. The fact is McIntosh is basically a non event outside of the USA, being home grown that's somewhat understandable. As an outsider so to speak, whether it's Made in the USA or not has no bearing on my critique or assessment. To answer the question, the problem I faced with the C41 with its ~50% supressed volume capability was that I couldn't honestly tell how good or bad it sounded in the large room with the ambient noise. I don't believe that this is "focusing on a very specific detail" it's a fundamental design flaw. One which the C42 shares. One that seriously affects its sound quality, as far as I concerned if I can't hear it properly it doesn't sound very good. As for the scratchy volume control, the same person who owned the C41 called me up a few months later (after the dinner party) and asked me to have a look at it as it was "crackling when adjusting the volume". He told me that he thought it must have been something I'd done when swapping it out because "McIntosh gear is built to last a lifetime" so it couldn't possibly be anything wrong with it. A quick look at the manual soon clarified what the actual cause was. The old dirty potentiometer, hadn't had one of those for years. I will admit his place is wide open, big room, large verandah, overlooking the harbour so exposed to sea breezes (salt water). Not exactly potentiometer friendly, but not a deliberate attempt to make a component fail either. A quick clean and spray fixed the problem, which resurfaced annually until he replaced the C41 with a C42. In which McIntosh saw fit to fix the potentiometer problem, about a decade after other manufacturers, but the volume problem still remains. I was at this same persons place for New Years Eve the year before last, it has a great view of the Sydney fireworks and the C42 still has the same problem, I can't hear it out on the verandah. This is much more to me than a mole on MM's face, and I sure as hell don't see it as unduly focusing on something minor. He also has a C2500 which has now had the HT bypass bug fixed in the software. The whingers about Emotiva software updates will be pleased (or not) to know that McIntosh isn't much better. In regards to the C2300 I'd suggest being aware of the volume control reset procedure, which needs doing when the knob looses its logic and the only way to adjust volume is via the remote control. Yes, I do have a lot of contact with McIntosh gear and it's far from perfect and to my way of thinking doesn't even come close to justifying its price point. My own personal view of course. Cheers Gary Unfortunately I haven't heard Mcintosh gear. I do like the look of it though. I'm sorry to hear of your issues with them.  Could you tell me a bit more about these? maybe a link. Is the magnum opus an amp? I found no info on it. Also....I like passive pre-amps! Do share What I mean is that AT6000 amp is Morris's "magnum opus". mag·num o·pus ˈmagnəm ˈōpəs/ noun noun: magnum opus; plural noun: magnum opuses; plural noun: magna opera 1. a large and important work of art, music, or literature, esp. one regarded as the most important work of an artist or writer. If you're looking at a passive pre then check this out. www.bentaudio.com/The DAC I shared is this one. www.dddac.com/The other stuff was a bunch of phono preamps. I think the list I just gave is very special and CURRENT. PS the AT6000 JUST started shipping... Thanks Solidstate. I have to spend some time figuring this stuff out. I'm not the most technically inclined but I enjoy learning about it. Thanks again. |
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Post by Gary Cook on Feb 16, 2014 23:26:03 GMT -5
Unfortunately I haven't heard Mcintosh gear. I do like the look of it though. I'm sorry to hear of your issues with them. Don't be too sorry, it's no skin off my nose, the gear wasn't mine, I just got to service it. The C41 and C42 belonged to a drummer from a band I used to do roady/electronic work for a long time ago. He was a cool guy to hang with, had so many stories of doing gigs with all sorts of bands, Stones, Chisel, ACDC, INXS etc. He could keep 20+ people entertained for hours, it's sad we lost him last year, but I bet he's up there playing with a rocking band and keeping them entertained with his stories. Cheers Gary |
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lmr
Minor Hero
Posts: 77
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Post by lmr on Feb 18, 2014 12:50:03 GMT -5
As far as the cost Solidstate, let's just say I am still paying the credit card. I don't know those companies you suggested and it was a chance just trying Emotiva.The McIntosh, I was able to listen to and liked the sound. Trying different equipment and selling or sending back is still a losing battle. I've come to a point in my life where I just go get what I want without trying to guess if the cheaper one will suffice.It usually doesn't. I felt I was getting the run around from management so I moved on. No biggie. As far as your suggestions, I appreciate them but I really wanted to try tubes.
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Post by brubacca on Feb 18, 2014 12:56:41 GMT -5
As far as the cost Solidstate, let's just say I am still paying the credit card. I don't know those companies you suggested and it was a chance just trying Emotiva.The McIntosh, I was able to listen to and liked the sound. Trying different equipment and selling or sending back is still a losing battle. I've come to a point in my life where I just go get what I want without trying to guess if the cheaper one will suffice.It usually doesn't. I felt I was getting the run around from management so I moved on. No biggie. As far as your suggestions, I appreciate them but I really wanted to try tubes. Congrats on the new gear! I hope that you enjoy it for many years to come. |
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KeithL
Administrator 
Posts: 9,924
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Post by KeithL on Feb 18, 2014 15:59:37 GMT -5
OK, I'll bite, how do you make a volume control with no resistors?  Actually, I see that Tap-X uses autoformers (that would be the way) - and they also make some pretty impressive claims for them.... Now, I do kind of wonder under what conditions they measured those impressive specs; since it does sort of matter. (We all know that the frequency response and THD of a transformer will vary wildly depending on the source and load impedance, right? In fact, and even though they claim the contrary, the capacitance of the cable will make a significant difference as well - and that will vary with cable length. In fact, in general, transformers introduce a lot more coloration to the sound than resistors. I would love to hear how they managed to avoid all the normal issues and pitfalls associated with putting audio signals through transformers.) I've owned McIntosh preamps before. IMHO, the only one out there that compares is Audio Research. The two design philosophies are at opposite ends of the scale - The AR gear is pure minimalist while the Mac gear is "everything but the kitchen sink." Nevertheless, they both perform stratospherically. Unfortunately, they're both priced that way too. The Emotiva preamps, by comparison offer maybe 85 to 90 percent of the sound of AR & Mac, but at about 50% (or less) of the price. If cost is no object, then I'd go AR or Mac. If you're a "value for the buck" shopper (like I am), then vote with your wallet - I bought Emotiva.
And that TAP-X kit BESTS ALL OF THEM.100% transparent with the best volume solution possible IE no resistors. It can be built as a balanced or single ended unit with the balanced unit costing almost twice the amount for obvious reasons. |
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Post by solidstate on Feb 18, 2014 23:28:37 GMT -5
OK, I'll bite, how do you make a volume control with no resistors? Actually, I see that Tap-X uses autoformers (that would be the way) - and they also make some pretty impressive claims for them.... Now, I do kind of wonder under what conditions they measured those impressive specs; since it does sort of matter. (We all know that the frequency response and THD of a transformer will vary wildly depending on the source and load impedance, right? In fact, and even though they claim the contrary, the capacitance of the cable will make a significant difference as well - and that will vary with cable length. In fact, in general, transformers introduce a lot more coloration to the sound than resistors. I would love to hear how they managed to avoid all the normal issues and pitfalls associated with putting audio signals through transformers.)
And that TAP-X kit BESTS ALL OF THEM.100% transparent with the best volume solution possible IE no resistors. It can be built as a balanced or single ended unit with the balanced unit costing almost twice the amount for obvious reasons. LOL I have no idea why it just sounds "better" and yes your input/output impedance matching is critical if working in passive mode. I'm reading this to try and gain better comprehension... www.jensen-transformers.com/an/Audio%20Transformers%20Chapter.pdfIt is the nicest preamp I've heard honestly. I thought Bent did some contract work for Jade/Emo... Why don't you ask him or bring in a unit for testing? Those guys in Europe that built that crazy DAC use a transformer for balanced to single ended conversion from their DAC. www.dddac.com/dddac1794_sound.html Read what they have to say about that Sowter transformer. |
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Post by solidstate on Feb 18, 2014 23:41:55 GMT -5
It's funny I'm singing the graces of audio transformers and sorta slighting Mcintosh considering their amplifier designs!
LOL
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Post by solidstate on Feb 18, 2014 23:49:55 GMT -5
OK, I'll bite, how do you make a volume control with no resistors? Actually, I see that Tap-X uses autoformers (that would be the way) - and they also make some pretty impressive claims for them.... Now, I do kind of wonder under what conditions they measured those impressive specs; since it does sort of matter. (We all know that the frequency response and THD of a transformer will vary wildly depending on the source and load impedance, right? In fact, and even though they claim the contrary, the capacitance of the cable will make a significant difference as well - and that will vary with cable length. In fact, in general, transformers introduce a lot more coloration to the sound than resistors. I would love to hear how they managed to avoid all the normal issues and pitfalls associated with putting audio signals through transformers.)
And that TAP-X kit BESTS ALL OF THEM.100% transparent with the best volume solution possible IE no resistors. It can be built as a balanced or single ended unit with the balanced unit costing almost twice the amount for obvious reasons. Have a chat with Dave Slagle of Intactaudio about it and perahaps also John Chapman. I'm not an engineer but I think I have decent enough ears though not "golden". www.intactaudio.com/forum/ |
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Post by boomzilla on Feb 18, 2014 23:53:56 GMT -5
I'm an atheist when it comes to equipment brands. Performance is as performance does. I've stated my opinions on McIntosh, so no need to reiterate. That said, I haven't heard everything on the market, so I don't claim to be an authority.
McIntosh has been around for a long, long time for some reason - and there aren't that many (non-audiophile) doctors & dentists to keep them in business either...
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Post by solidstate on Feb 18, 2014 23:56:05 GMT -5
OK, I'll bite, how do you make a volume control with no resistors? Actually, I see that Tap-X uses autoformers (that would be the way) - and they also make some pretty impressive claims for them.... Now, I do kind of wonder under what conditions they measured those impressive specs; since it does sort of matter. (We all know that the frequency response and THD of a transformer will vary wildly depending on the source and load impedance, right? In fact, and even though they claim the contrary, the capacitance of the cable will make a significant difference as well - and that will vary with cable length. In fact, in general, transformers introduce a lot more coloration to the sound than resistors. I would love to hear how they managed to avoid all the normal issues and pitfalls associated with putting audio signals through transformers.)
And that TAP-X kit BESTS ALL OF THEM.100% transparent with the best volume solution possible IE no resistors. It can be built as a balanced or single ended unit with the balanced unit costing almost twice the amount for obvious reasons. Q - What is an autoformer? A - An autoformer (short for autotransformer) is a special type of transformer with an especially simple winding arraignment. The simplicity means that it can't be substituted for an ordinary transformer in most applications, but when it can be used the result is a device with higher performance. To be more specific, an ordinary transformer has separate primary (input) and secondary (output) windings, while an autoformer shares some part of the winding between the two. Note that the ordinary transformer provides DC isolation between the input and output windings. In many applications this is an important feature. However, when DC isolation is not required then an autoformer will often outperform an ordinary transformer. This is because virtually all electronic devices exhibit some imperfections; they are not ideal. But compared to an ordinary transformer, an autoformer can often be made with fewer (or smaller) imperfections. The behavior of an autoformer is often closer to ideal. You might have noticed that the autoformer is a simple three-terminal device with a common ground. This makes it a direct replacement for resistive voltage dividers like potentiometers or stepped attenuators. Q - Why use an autoformer volume control? I've been happy with a good quality potentiometer. A - The simple answer is that most people find that the autoformer volume control sounds significantly better than even the best potentiometer or stepped attenuator. And it's not a subtle difference; most people report that the autoformer has such an open, effortless sound that they would not consider going back to a resistive device. Exactly why they sound better is still under debate, but one theory is that it's because an autoformer doesn't attenuate by wasting energy. A fairly good analogy can be made to the transmission in a car. If you need to drive at a slow steady speed which method would you choose: (1) leave the transmission in high gear and apply the brakes to keep from going too fast, or (2) downshift into a lower gear that will allow the car to go the desired speed with minimum effort? An autoformer is essentially an electronic gearbox that operates without wasting significant energy. Potentiometers and stepped attenuators adjust the signal level by literally turning the excess signal into heat. On the other hand, when an autoformer is adjusted for low volume level it actually makes things easier for the source, much like a low gear makes things easy for your car engine. It becomes quickly apparent that the reflective load can be ignored in this case since it is many multiples of the inductance in parallel with it. Inductance gives you a impedance = 2*pi*Frequncy*L(inductance) or Z=2piFL. Its this simple formula that tells you what you need to know about the impedance presented ot the source. Q - What is the impedance presented to the source? A - It is the reflected load in parallel with the inductive reactance of the autoformer. When set for no attenuation, the reflected load is simply whatever follows the volume control in the signal chain. However, that load is cut in half (resistance is doubled) for every 3dB of attenuation. At -20dB the reflected load is reduced by a factor of 100. At -40dB it is reduced by a factor of 10,000 which is 10,000 times the resistance! The simplified approach is to determine the desired load taking into consideration the lowest frequency of interest and doing a few simple calculations. For example: If your source is a CD player with a 50 ohm Z-out and you want to adhere to the 1:10 ratio of source to load many suggest all you need ot do is pick a suitable low frequency (often 20hz) and plug the numbers into the Z=2piFL formula to get, 500=2*pi*20*L. Solving for L gives you a required 4hy inductance to provide a 500 ohm load to a 50 ohm source. Our Autoformers come shipped with a butt gap which provides approximately 20hy's of inductance. If your situation requires more inductance it is quite simple to restack the lams to get inductance values up to 170hy's. Q - What if I don't want to stack the lams? A - They come stacked with a butt-joint , but stacking a core is not a difficult job and takes only a few minutes. I find this interesting... Q - Aren't 3db steps rather coarse? A - For some reason (that we don't understand) 3dB steps on a magnetic attenuator seem finer than the same size steps on a resistive device. In any case, few people find this configuration adequate. Here is the page. www.intactaudio.com/atten_FAQ.htmlHe wants a lot of money for those little transformers for certain but the design/manufacture is very tight. Basically he wants 200 bones to to wind you one. |
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