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Post by Golden Ear on Apr 16, 2014 16:41:49 GMT -5
I'm glad that this topic have brought up. I'm not a firm believer on interconnect since I have been using quality shielded IC for a long time. I keep asking myself why the sound on the demo room on best buy even their entry level sound coherent than my system. Some of you may argue that your need to fix your acoustic and rearrange your speakers. I did that and did not put a smile on my face. Then salesman from best buy ask me what IC i'm using and told him what I was using. He said try this brand audioquest and if you hear don't hear anything difference return it back. Their entry level forest which I tried first and holy smokey this cable does in fact blow the stack cable I had. It was immediate as soon I push play I knew there were difference. Under the stack cable, the vocal were less clear and vocal and instruments seems to stick together. I return it back and told the salesman that I will buy the next level up of the cable which is called goldengate. I demoed both of them side by side on my system and there were some incremental in sound quality but the price have doubled. I say about 5% more gain. It seems that solid core conductor made the difference since I have been using stranded wires ever since. I went to look at the internet and people who bought them confess it made their sound system the way it should sound.
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Post by redog on Apr 16, 2014 16:52:47 GMT -5
magically the stock wire inside our speakers and components carry the upgraded signal from expensive speaker cable without degrading it to that nasty stock wire sound.
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Post by monkumonku on Apr 16, 2014 17:08:47 GMT -5
magically the stock wire inside our speakers and components carry the upgraded signal from expensive speaker cable without degrading it to that nasty stock wire sound. Yes, because wire can only upgrade. Once it has risen above, it cannot sink below. Didn't you take physics in high school or college??? Same principle for breaking in - equipment can only get better, not worse. Now, don't apply this to everything because it is only Heisenberg's Audiophile Theory of SPECIAL Rationalization. It is not the same thing as Heisenberg's Theory of General Rationalization. Under the former, equipment can never go breaking-in bad but under the latter, it can.
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Post by cd on Apr 16, 2014 17:24:50 GMT -5
Redog hit the nail squarely on the head: "Unless you are going to open up your speakers/electronics and replace all of the cheap wire inside, all your doing is feeding cheap wire with expensive wire."
Bingo! I'm one of those folks who hears NO difference among well constructed cables. Simply buy ones that are well made and fit properly. Your time, effort, and money would be far better spent improving your room/speaker interaction. Get the room and speakers working well together and everything else is of little consequence...
CD
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Post by Golden Ear on Apr 16, 2014 18:03:49 GMT -5
Cable does not make signal better it only minimize loss and being distorted. I'm not a firm believer on cable till I heard it myself so hearing is believing. I don't care what marketing gimmick or technology that are incorporates but if I don't hear anything it will be return. This may have something to do with solid conductor instead of strand wires.
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Post by frenchyfranky on Apr 16, 2014 18:09:02 GMT -5
I built all my RCA cables from extension cord. Do you built your extension cable with RCA cord...?
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Post by thepcguy on Apr 16, 2014 18:14:03 GMT -5
Cable does not make signal better it only minimize loss and being distorted. I'm not a firm believer on cable till I heard it myself so hearing is believing. I don't care what marketing gimmick or technology that are incorporates but if I don't hear anything it will be return. This may have something to do with solid conductor instead of strand wires. Again I respectfully ask: How did you compare the cables? Thanks.
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Post by Golden Ear on Apr 16, 2014 18:34:42 GMT -5
Cable does not make signal better it only minimize loss and being distorted. I'm not a firm believer on cable till I heard it myself so hearing is believing. I don't care what marketing gimmick or technology that are incorporates but if I don't hear anything it will be return. This may have something to do with solid conductor instead of strand wires. Again I respectfully ask: How did you compare the cables? Thanks. I compare it to the stack RCA cable you get from electronics when you buy one. Same length so the comparison is same. My ear tells me there is a difference otherwise it would have been return. The clarity is the most obvious followed by separation. There are two type of people one that can hear and one that don't so your miles may vary. I also google about this from other people who purchase them and swear it was better than stack. Better yet try them yourself if you are not convince you can return them.
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Post by thepcguy on Apr 16, 2014 18:44:27 GMT -5
Again I respectfully ask: How did you compare the cables? Thanks. I compare it to the stack RCA cable you get from electronics when you buy one. Same length so the comparison is same. My ear tells me there is a difference otherwise it would have been return. The clarity is the most obvious followed by separation. There are two type of people one that can hear and one that don't so your miles may vary. I also google about this from other people who purchase them and swear it was better than stack. Better yet try them yourself if you are not convince you can return them. I know you compared them but My question is "how". How did you do it? For example, how did you swap the cables?
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Post by Golden Ear on Apr 16, 2014 18:57:23 GMT -5
I compare it to the stack RCA cable you get from electronics when you buy one. Same length so the comparison is same. My ear tells me there is a difference otherwise it would have been return. The clarity is the most obvious followed by separation. There are two type of people one that can hear and one that don't so your miles may vary. I also google about this from other people who purchase them and swear it was better than stack. Better yet try them yourself if you are not convince you can return them. I know you compared them but My question is "how". How did you do it? For example, how did you swap the cables? Of course I swap them otherwise how I tell the difference.
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Post by Priapulus on Apr 16, 2014 19:08:36 GMT -5
> "Unless you are going to open up your speakers/electronics and replace all of the cheap wire inside, all your doing is feeding cheap wire with expensive wire."
This may not be so dumb. I recently took my Fender bass guitar apart, cleaned the pots and contacts and installed new shielded wire to the pickups and pots. I was rewarded with less hum and crackle.
/b
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Post by thepcguy on Apr 16, 2014 19:21:25 GMT -5
I know you compared them but My question is "how". How did you do it? For example, how did you swap the cables? Of course I swap them otherwise how I tell the difference. Ah, you swap them YOURSELF. In other words, you KNEW when you are using the AUDIOQUEST cable. I am not surprised you picked the Audioquest cable.
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Post by redog on Apr 16, 2014 19:28:25 GMT -5
I'm surprised that this argument doesn't carry over to PC's. I mean if cable can carry better sound, could it not also carry better graphics?
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Post by Golden Ear on Apr 16, 2014 19:47:03 GMT -5
Of course I swap them otherwise how I tell the difference. Ah, you swap them YOURSELF. In other words, you KNEW when you are using the AUDIOQUEST cable. I am not surprised you picked the Audioquest cable. Are you telling me that I'm being bias and don't know what I'm talking about? Look I'm not crazy to give my hard earn money to a cable company that doesn't do any improvement. Like I said, I never believe in cable before and hearing is believing. I bet if you see UFO and tell us you we think you don't know what are you saying but seeing is believing. Your eyes told you is was UFO so that is good enough for you.
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Post by lionear on Apr 16, 2014 20:04:00 GMT -5
I'm one of those people who hear differences in cables. I can pick out a Cardas from an Analysis Plus, and others. Can you please tell us how you compare cables? Sure. I am just going to write some points down - it's not anything written in stone and others may have other methods. I don't think there's a specific process for cables - it's just another component and I evaluate it the same way as any other component. I start with one source that I know will be good at revealing the sound stage, and has good high frequency and low frequency info. I also like something to have a high contrast between the quietest passages and the loudest passages. There are a lot of super discs out there. As far as CD's go, I can recommend Reference Recordings RR-93CD - it has "Fanfare for the Common Man". You'll need a few reference-level CD's like this. Then I play the CD, or one track over and over again. I listen to the location of each instrument and how each instrument section sounds. Since it's played by a large orchestra, I know where the instruments are. I listen for "focus" - the exact location of instruments, as well as "dimensionality" - the body of the instruments (like the double bass section). I should also hear the focus of the strike on the tympani, as well as the body of the tympani. I should also be able to hear the layering of the players - the brass section would be behind the double bass section. The tympani, drums and gong are in the center, at the back. I should also get a sense of the venue - because a lot of the sound will be bouncing off the sides and rear wall, as well as the ceiling. Even though I have not gone to that venue, I have heard the symphony orchestra in my home town. I made sure I was sitting in the centre, in Rows E, F, G or H. On the "Fanfare" CD, you should be able to see the gong light up the whole stage. (The ridiculously expensive MIT Oracle cables are supposedly able to show the back of the soundstage to new levels - and do everything else, I suppose.) If I don't see the violins, violas and cellos in the centre, then I don't blame the cables right away. If I see a big hole in the center, I have to move the speakers inwards. If I hear a confused sound in the centre, then I have to move the speakers out. I should hear the harp to the extreme left (between the left speaker and the left wall) and the double bass section's sound should extend to the right of the right speaker. I should get a proper layering of the instruments - if I don't then, I need to move the speakers away or towards the wall. If I have a subwoofer, I need to adjust the sub's frequency and level until there's a smooth transition. Cables are going to have different tonal balances. Some will be brighter, and some will favor the midrange and some the bass. I can forgive small departures in tonal accuracy if I get a better sense of the instruments and the venue - I'm a soundstage junkie. And when I say "favor" - this can come in two ways. On the one hand, the cable might boost a range of frequency. On the other hand, the cable might allow more of the sound to come through from the components. You want the latter, not the former. (If it's coming from the cables, you'd get a characteristic "same note" kind of treble, mids or bass that doesn't change when you play different CD's. If it's from a good system, the timbre will sound different as you play different CD's - meaning that the cable is passing the signal through without adding its own character.) I'd also watch for "spotlighting". Sometimes a cable may favor a narrow band of frequencies. This might come across as "sparkle" from a vibraphone or greater "presence" in the vocals. I really hate that and I think you'd get tired of that pretty quickly. Sometimes, a change in cable may make us hear new things in other components. For example, a more revealing cable might show limitations in a preamp. So it's good to have access to another preamp or power amp and to switch these in to verify that it's not the cable's fault. And this is where friends can be a great help. And finally, once the analysis part is over, I just sit back and listen. If the sound is natural, clear and "effortless", then I'm happy. It's hard to measure some of this. Ideally, components should hot have a character and modern gear handily beats older gear in this area. However, if I have to accept a character (because of cost, etc.) I have a personal preference for a slightly "yin" sound (like Genesis speakers) as opposed to "yang" sound (like Avalon speakers). I cannot guarantee that you'll hear differences. A lot can depend on your system and your room. I have a pretty "old school" system. There's no processing in the preamp - my system has one EQ section in the phono stage, and the other EQ is in the speaker crossover. My speakers have a conventional tweeter flush mounted on the front plate. A system with horn speakers (not the modern mega$ ones) may have difficulty in rendering the back of the orchestra (where the tympani and drums are). I'm also not sure about HT speakers - since you're expected to use a center speaker, I wonder about the dispersion pattern of the Left and Right speakers and their ability to do stereo. Some preamps may not keep their composure as the music gets loud and complex - the DR-6R is superior to an Audio Research SP-9. The XPA-100's are amazingly amazing. (I've tried various vibration control products and I've hated all of them. I've also tried various room treatments and hated all of them, too. I have never used a computer program to tell me where to put speakers, etc.) You can try to do A/B switching, but you don't have to. You can learn to hear the differences. You can take notes on specific aspects, as well as listen for how a component handles a specific part of the music. This is a really useful skill to have. BTW: I use Cat5e/Cat6 cables as interconnects - I don't know if anyone makes them for sale, so you might need to make a set yourself. I have yet to hear anything better but I have my eyes out, as always. People have tried this in the past and they rated the cables at 5/10 or so. But here's the trick: the cable length should be 1.5 metres (5ft) or longer. Never shorter. And if you get Leviton brand, be prepared for a lot of break in. If anyone's interested, I can provide details. :-) PS: I still suggest getting cables like Analysis Plus, Cardas, and Audioquest just so that you can hear the differences. PPS: my speaker cable is "Metal Monster Audio Speaker Cable Wire" (MMASCW). It's something that a friend of mine sent to me. It was probably made in China and looks a lot like lamp cord. I have no idea how to get more of it. I'm switching soon to Nordost Red Dawn II - which is only perhaps 5% better than the MMASCW. But that 5% just happens to be important to me.
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Post by thepcguy on Apr 16, 2014 20:35:38 GMT -5
Can you please tell us how you compare cables? Sure. I am just going to write some points down - it's not anything written in stone and others may have other methods. I don't think there's a specific process for cables - it's just another component and I evaluate it the same way as any other component. I start with ... Then I play the CD, or one track over and over again. .... I should also get a sense of the venue... You can try to do A/B switching, but you don't have to. Got it. I just wanted to know if you do Blind listening. Obviously, you don't. Thanks.
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Post by pedrocols on Apr 16, 2014 20:36:49 GMT -5
I built all my RCA cables from extension cord. Do you built your extension cable with RCA cord...? Hey you gave me an idea...I'll be right back. I hope I don't trip the breaker....
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Post by lionear on Apr 16, 2014 20:52:16 GMT -5
Sure. I am just going to write some points down - it's not anything written in stone and others may have other methods. I don't think there's a specific process for cables - it's just another component and I evaluate it the same way as any other component. I start with ... Then I play the CD, or one track over and over again. .... I should also get a sense of the venue... You can try to do A/B switching, but you don't have to. Got it. I just wanted to know if you do Blind listening. Obviously, you don't. Thanks. Well, that's 30 minutes of my life I'm not going to get back. I guess I misunderstood your question. How do you evaluate cables?
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Post by thepcguy on Apr 16, 2014 21:04:59 GMT -5
Got it. I just wanted to know if you do Blind listening. Obviously, you don't. Thanks. Well, that's 30 minutes of my life I'm not going to get back. I guess I misunderstood your question. How do you evaluate cables? Simple. I ask somebody to swap them. That way, I wouldn't know which cable is being used. That way, I'm 100% sure there's no bias on my part.
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Post by Golden Ear on Apr 16, 2014 21:13:23 GMT -5
Well, that's 30 minutes of my life I'm not going to get back. I guess I misunderstood your question. How do you evaluate cables? Simple. I ask somebody to swap them. That way, I wouldn't know which cable is being used. That way, I'm 100% sure there's no bias on my part. If my eyes is sensitive to see underlining different colors so does my ears. You can blind fold me and still pick the difference. Been in this hobby for a long time and probably you were still a toddler at that time.
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