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Post by jlafrenz on Jul 19, 2014 23:12:39 GMT -5
I would think by their individual room position that they would each engage unique boundary reenforcement, but I'm sure they thought a lot about it. If I have two mono subs in opposite ends, I would think at least adjusting distance/phase would be a useful feature. Look's like stereo is the better choice if you are running dual subs and want to control each individually. I'll be honest and haven't put much though in about how distance comes into play with the manual settings in this situation. That is a great question and I would be curious to gain some knowledge here myself. |
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Post by igorzep on Jul 20, 2014 7:52:18 GMT -5
I'll be honest and haven't put much though in about how distance comes into play with the manual settings in this situation. That is a great question and I would be curious to gain some knowledge here myself. You have two subs placed with different distances to the listening area. You don't want subs to interact with a comb filtering and deep notches, do you? Then you need at least an ability to control the distance (== delay) so they are properly phase-matched in their working band. Then, learn on the DBA (Double Bass Array) concept, it is a simple perfect way how you can completely eliminate a room (working only with rectangular one), so there is no variation in the bass response at all across the room. This config needs also a phase (== polarity) control in addition to the distance. Sure, you are right in the sense that after that time-alignment is done, it should be treated as single mono sub by the EQ (PEQ now, and also Dirac in the future). But it is the time-alignment that makes it flexible .2 system. "Stereo .2" is what is a waste for many of us, who is confused... as it doesn't help with why we have multiple subs - evening response and increasing output. "Mono .2" is what we need, but XMC-1 is basically just an Y-splitter, not the ".2" dual-sub processor in this case. |
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Post by jlafrenz on Jul 20, 2014 8:33:16 GMT -5
I'll be honest and haven't put much though in about how distance comes into play with the manual settings in this situation. That is a great question and I would be curious to gain some knowledge here myself. You have two subs placed with different distances to the listening area. You don't want subs to interact with a comb filtering and deep notches, do you? Then you need at least an ability to control the distance (== delay) so they are properly phase-matched in their working band. Then, learn on the DBA (Double Bass Array) concept, it is a simple perfect way how you can completely eliminate a room (working only with rectangular one), so there is no variation in the bass response at all across the room. This config needs also a phase (== polarity) control in addition to the distance. Sure, you are right in the sense that after that time-alignment is done, it should be treated as single mono sub by the EQ (PEQ now, and also Dirac in the future). But it is the time-alignment that makes it flexible .2 system. "Stereo .2" is what is a waste for many of us, who is confused... as it doesn't help with why we have multiple subs - evening response and increasing output. "Mono .2" is what we need, but XMC-1 is basically just an Y-splitter, not the ".2" dual-sub processor in this case. I can't say for sure that it is the exact same as a "Y" splitter by design, it just appears that way based upon the set up options when "Mono" is selected. Subs typically have phase control physically on the sub itself. This could be adjusted with an SPL meter or even by ear before the subs are measured and any EQ is applied. |
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Post by igorzep on Jul 20, 2014 8:54:22 GMT -5
I can't say for sure that it is the exact same as a "Y" splitter by design, it just appears that way based upon the set up options when "Mono" is selected. If it appears like that in the setup options then it is exactly that way... Subs typically have phase control physically on the sub itself. This could be adjusted with an SPL meter or even by ear before the subs are measured and any EQ is applied. Phase control is poor-man way to phase align the sub with mains in an analog domain. It does not properly time-align them still, which is really what is desirable. And it is simply useless for aligning two subs (or arrays) together. I am suggesting Emotiva to consider an addition of the option in their menu structure to set for the second Mono sub configuration the delay/phase/level settings that are counted not absolutely, but in relation to the first subwoofer. And then treat that as a single sub by the PEQ and Dirac. This should not be any complexity to implement it, and should be fairly trivial considering all the hardware and functionality is already available inside the XMC-1, we only need a little bit more flexibility to configure it. I hope this suggestion will be noted by the Emotiva and implemented into the XMC-1. |
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Post by wizardofoz on Jul 20, 2014 10:14:18 GMT -5
I have Definitive Technology Bp7000sc speakers with built in powered subs. My center and surrounds also have powered subs in them. What would be the best way to set up the bass management with the xmc-1? Also should I use stereo sub setting? or the mono setting for sub output. Andrew has reviewed the same system as I have before, so maybe he can chime in? If you have a powered bass unit in each of your speakers that is not a "proper" SUB its just a powered bass diver my friend - capable for lower end but a subwoofer is a bit of a stretch of the definition. A "proper" dedicated SUB is a very different beast indeed. My basis for this is you cannot place your"sub" where it is going to work best with the nodes in the room that affect bass most. your placement will be for musical image of the upper ranges and will compromise one or the other as you can't do appropriate placement for both. what you have my friend is a very capable full range speaker set...to do proper SUB EQ you have to be able to position your subs in the best location first...google "the subwoofer crawl" |
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Post by pop on Jul 20, 2014 10:17:29 GMT -5
Off topic a bit, but on setting phase this is how I have always done it. Any other advice would be appreciated.
With 2 subs. Start with one, adjust phase until you get the read out on your SPL meter. Turn the second on and adjust phase until you get the highest SPL read out with both on.
Eh? Seems to work for me, but maybe there is something else I could do to dial it in even better?
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Post by wizardofoz on Jul 20, 2014 10:27:08 GMT -5
Pop thats a pretty good way to get a good idea...of course if you move one or both of the subs or anything else significant in the room like a sofa etc you will have to start again with the same process. see the subwoofer crawl reference to google for too
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Post by pop on Jul 20, 2014 11:00:53 GMT -5
Thanks Wiz. I have done the crawl. The Dog and cat think I am crazy.  My subs sound great, I was just wondering if I was missing anything. Since putting the Pendragon towers next to them and moving the couches I should probably check all this again tomorrow. hard to do with just one person. |
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Post by novisnick on Jul 20, 2014 11:23:55 GMT -5
Thanks Wiz. I have done the crawl. The Dog and cat think I am crazy. My subs sound great, I was just wondering if I was missing anything. Since putting the Pendragon towers next to them and moving the couches I should probably check all this again tomorrow. hard to do with just one person. The dog and cat know nothing that we don't know!!! Thats all,,,,,,carry on!!  |
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Post by se7en1 on Jul 20, 2014 20:07:23 GMT -5
So an XMC-1 with 2 subs receiving a mono signal can't be independently set for level and distance. Is that correct?
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bootman
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Post by bootman on Jul 20, 2014 21:02:52 GMT -5
Looks like the enhanced bass setting may do dual mono if you set the speakers to small and pick your crossover.
Can someone verify if you can do stereo and enhanced bass at the same time?
This should result in all bass going to the subs.
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Post by srrndhound on Jul 21, 2014 4:11:02 GMT -5
Each sub can have it's own physical connection to the XMC-1. The XMC-1 can then treat them as individual subs or as "one sub". Setting the XMC-1 to mono would be the same as using a "Y" splitter. This is just done internally. Either way, both subs receive the same signal and EQ. If you want to treat each sub individually, each of them would need to have their own physical connection and the subs set to stereo. This way each subwoofer can utilize independent PEQ. You could have 2 subs in your room located in different areas and still treat them as a single sub. This way it uses the PEQ for the overall room response at your seating position. Thanks for the reply. Is this based on your interpretation of the manual, someone at Emotiva's interpretation of the manual, or has someone confirmed this by testing? (It's a 30 second test, quite simple.) If this information is correct, it's kind of a missed opportunity. Stereo bass does not allow optimizing two subs for modal control because they do not carry the same signals. Of course they will some of the time, and the LFE will always be the same. But it's a simple thing to implement dual mono sub support. |
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Post by bootman on Jul 21, 2014 11:01:02 GMT -5
You have two subs placed with different distances to the listening area. You don't want subs to interact with a comb filtering and deep notches, do you? Then you need at least an ability to control the distance (== delay) so they are properly phase-matched in their working band. Then, learn on the DBA (Double Bass Array) concept, it is a simple perfect way how you can completely eliminate a room (working only with rectangular one), so there is no variation in the bass response at all across the room. This config needs also a phase (== polarity) control in addition to the distance. Sure, you are right in the sense that after that time-alignment is done, it should be treated as single mono sub by the EQ (PEQ now, and also Dirac in the future). But it is the time-alignment that makes it flexible .2 system. "Stereo .2" is what is a waste for many of us, who is confused... as it doesn't help with why we have multiple subs - evening response and increasing output. "Mono .2" is what we need, but XMC-1 is basically just an Y-splitter, not the ".2" dual-sub processor in this case. I think you need to expand a bit on the DBA concept and how it would apply here. Also what are you doing now to EQ your DBA? (or do you need to eq that much?) This concept is not that well known in North America. thanks! |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jul 21, 2014 11:24:35 GMT -5
Of course they will some of the time, and the LFE will always be the same. But it's a simple thing to implement dual mono sub support. Right, if you configure for stereo subs it will act as an independently EQ'd dual mono when listening to HT content. The 'missing configuration' would allow for this when listening to stereo music as well (which is also the only place configuring for stereo subwoofers could be an advantage). |
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Post by bootman on Jul 21, 2014 11:40:03 GMT -5
Of course they will some of the time, and the LFE will always be the same. But it's a simple thing to implement dual mono sub support. Right, if you configure for stereo subs it will act as an independently EQ'd dual mono when listening to HT content. The 'missing configuration' would allow for this when listening to stereo music as well (which is also the only place configuring for stereo subwoofers could be an advantage). The main downfall to this is if one configures dual subs to say tame a room node, this effect is lost in stereo mode but would still apply in HT mode. Now the question becomes in 2ch music when will this become a real issue. |
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Post by chaosrv on Jul 21, 2014 12:52:47 GMT -5
Assuming your player has analog outputs, would it be possible to put a y-splitter on the player's LFE output and use the analog inputs on the XMC-1? That way you could trick the XMC-1 into thinking the signal received was either 2.2, 5.2 or 7.2 thus enabling you to EQ the subs independently even on a "mono" LFE track.
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Post by bootman on Jul 21, 2014 13:05:04 GMT -5
Assuming your player has analog outputs, would it be possible to put a y-splitter on the player's LFE output and use the analog inputs on the XMC-1? That way you could trick the XMC-1 into thinking the signal received was either 2.2, 5.2 or 7.2 thus enabling you to EQ the subs independently even on a "mono" LFE track. I don't think you have to do that. LFE is mono and appears already on both the L and R sub. The question is for all other sub content other than the LFE channel. The more I think about it the more it may be that for movies this might not be that big of an issue. How many movies have that much "lower than 80Hz content" going to the main channels now? I don't think anyone knows since for the most part we set our speakers to small and XO at 80 anyway. Am I off base here? (pun intended) |
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Post by igorzep on Jul 21, 2014 13:08:16 GMT -5
I think you need to expand a bit on the DBA concept and how it would apply here. You can read about the concept here. Or google "Double Bass Array" for more articles. Also what are you doing now to EQ your DBA? (or do you need to eq that much?) I don't have DBA.. It is one of my ideas for implementing in the future. I need to get an appropriate room first Basically if the subs forming the DBA are flat then EQ is not needed at all (except the delay/polarity/level application). This concept is not that well known in North America. It is requiring quite a number of bass drivers placed appropriately. Not everyone have flexibility to do it that way - the room should be designed in advance for the arrays. But for those, who have this possibility and resources it is the best possible way to implement sub. Not cheap definitely, so, not for everyone, but not extremely extraordinary on the other side. |
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Post by deltadube on Jul 21, 2014 13:41:56 GMT -5
Off topic a bit, but on setting phase this is how I have always done it. Any other advice would be appreciated. With 2 subs. Start with one, adjust phase until you get the read out on your SPL meter. Turn the second on and adjust phase until you get the highest SPL read out with both on. Eh? Seems to work for me, but maybe there is something else I could do to dial it in even better? hi Pop.. im not sure if you left out or did this it does not say.. start out with 1 sub.. playing brown noise adjust to 75 dbs out put of master volume of main speakers and sub 1.. then adjust sub 1 phase dial to get the maximum spl read out with the mains.. this is a subtle difference of a 3 dbs maybe.. take your time.. read the fluxs of the meter.. leave the setting of subs 1.. turn off mains adjust sub 2 to 75 db output.. and adjust sub 2 phase to sub 1 too maximum spl reading very easy .. about 12 or so db swing.. in phase to out of phase.. that's how I did it.. cheers.. |
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Post by wizardofoz on Jul 21, 2014 14:19:53 GMT -5
One problem on the xmc-1 is there is only analogue 7.1 in not 7.2
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