|
Post by urwi on Aug 31, 2014 4:26:46 GMT -5
It's not like there's either peaks or dips. If you correct such peaks you'll ultimately degrade the response at other locations. In my experience there can be peaks that are common to multiple locations. I've just never seen this happening for a peak with a Q of 24. A peak of any Q needs to exist at any point within the listening area to be correctable with PEQ. I doubt a peak of Q 24 will exist in multiple seats. I've never seen that happening that's why I've asked for data. By your definition any room mode peak of any Q is not correctable... It is not working like that. A modal peak (a room issue) of any Q won't be a peak at all locations. Whenever there is a modal peak then there is a corresponding modal null somewhere. Null is uncorrectable (boost is harmful, but there is no harm attenuating it as it is a null anyway), but peak must be corrected still. We correct by peaks if there is a variation across the listening area (and there is always variation)! Moreover, even not at peak position there is a time-domain smearing (ringing) at the mode frequency (mode is not a local problem, it exists across the room at the same time at all points - peaks, nulls, and in between). By reducing peak we are also reduce this ringing even at positions where there is no peak. So again - if any point in the listening area have a peak - it needs to be corrected. But it is not true that all points should have the peak to be correctable.
|
|
|
Post by igorzep on Aug 31, 2014 5:07:56 GMT -5
It's not like there's either peaks or dips. If you correct such peaks you'll ultimately degrade the response at other locations. Not ultimately. And I've explained why. By correcting modal peak ringing is reduced at other locations also. And having a sharp dip in FR somewhere is still (a lot more) preferable to having a sharp peak. In my experience there can be peaks that are common to multiple locations. In your experience... you either not measured enough points (as it is much easier to randomly pick a point with a modal peak than a modal dip as peak occupies more space of the room and dips are a lot 'thinner'). Or, the problem was not really a room problem. I've just never seen this happening for a peak with a Q of 24. If you would see it it means it is not a room problem, and if it is not a room problem it is a problem with speaker. And such a speaker would be a real crap if you would see such thing happening And then... what are you talking about is not Room EQ. Room problems are inconsistent by the nature. You can't escape that.
|
|
|
Post by AudioHTIT on Aug 31, 2014 6:36:44 GMT -5
I thought I'd copy an excerpt from my "Running Thread From EmoLA", many of these questions were based on XMC-1 features requested in this thread. It at least gives an idea whether some of the features could or might be implemented, though my brief answers don't convey the amount of work some might take. ... Lonnie was very generous with his time, he just answered quite a few questions. XMC-1 Questions - me & Answers (Lonnie) - Possible 5.x Enhancements - Dolby PLIIz (no), NEO:X (haven't considered), Bi-Amp (working on it), Atmos (5.2.2 - working with Dolby) - Possible 7.x Enhancements - Copy Surround to Rear (possible, in discussion) - Full bandwidth pink noise (working on it) - Network Streaming - DLNA, NAS (yes, capability already native - working on it - ask Ray on specific file types - most majors supported) - USB File Player - USB stick or hard drive (yes, working on it-some may work now) - no other apps or widgets like Netflix / Amazon - 5 Hz increments for subwoofer crossover (reasonable) - Can you add back the virtual sources from the UMC-1? (Yes! but haven't been working on it - actual owners will need to want it) - Additional work on dual mono subs for ganged EQ w/separate distances (unlikely) - Will App and IP protocols be released soon? (Yes, September likely, protocol waiting for additional security testing) - API enhancements for Open Web (yes, likely, need more security and protection) - Can HDMI be made to allow audio to processor AND HDMI output simultaneously - (yes, will consider) - IP to IR redirect [ GreenKiwi] - (yes possible, will have to discuss with Larry/Jerry?) - Do all Zone 2 states 'stick' through power cycle? (Yes, including power) - Is there midnight mode w/ dynamic compression? (Yes) - Bluetooth module for XMC-1 (Possible) - OLED Goodies: RTA, SPL, VU Meters (possible - under consideration) - Atmos additional channels via outboard box (not likely due to licensing and copy protection to get signal outside of box) - Atmos additional channels via zone 2 or other internal, 5.2.4 7.2.2 (possible, Z2 routing issues to resolve) - Dirac still on schedule? (Looks very good for September)
|
|
|
Post by igorzep on Aug 31, 2014 7:56:01 GMT -5
^ Relative Level Offset! easily accessible... forgotten as usual
|
|
|
Post by urwi on Aug 31, 2014 8:13:15 GMT -5
Are we still talking about this post? It's not like there's either peaks or dips. If you correct such peaks you'll ultimately degrade the response at other locations. Not ultimately. And I've explained why. By correcting modal peak ringing is reduced at other locations also. And having a sharp dip in FR somewhere is still (a lot more) preferable to having a sharp peak. In my experience there can be peaks that are common to multiple locations. In your experience... you either not measured enough points (as it is much easier to randomly pick a point with a modal peak than a modal dip as peak occupies more space of the room and dips are a lot 'thinner'). Or, the problem was not really a room problem. I've just never seen this happening for a peak with a Q of 24. If you would see it it means it is not a room problem, and if it is not a room problem it is a problem with speaker. And such a speaker would be a real crap if you would see such thing happening And then... what are you talking about is not Room EQ. Room problems are inconsistent by the nature. You can't escape that.
|
|
|
Post by viper6 on Aug 31, 2014 11:32:15 GMT -5
This may have been requested already, but I don't have the time right now to read the whole thread.
It would be nice if the On Screen Display did NOT pop up every time the audio stream from my Satellite receiver changed due to commercials having different audio than the actual programming. It is a little annoying to be notified on screen that the cheaply produced commercial is only Dolby2.0 when the program I am watching is Dolby 5.1.
Perhaps this could be done by disabling the auto notification by OSD if the input isn't changed.
|
|
|
Post by multicore on Aug 31, 2014 11:49:54 GMT -5
This may have been requested already, but I don't have the time right now to read the whole thread. It would be nice if the On Screen Display did NOT pop up every time the audio stream from my Satellite receiver changed due to commercials having different audio than the actual programming. It is a little annoying to be notified on screen that the cheaply produced commercial is only Dolby2.0 when the program I am watching is Dolby 5.1. Perhaps this could be done by disabling the auto notification by OSD if the input isn't changed. I don't have my XMC-1 yet (received letter), but in the manual under: Setup > Preferences > OSD Popups there is an option called "User" which states only pop up on user input.
|
|
|
Post by AudioHTIT on Aug 31, 2014 11:54:17 GMT -5
^ Relative Level Offset! easily accessible... forgotten as usual If this was a question I forgot to ask maybe you could start a thread for questions to be asked in Santa Clara next week. You will probably need to be more specific, are you're still referring to subwoofers? However you did give me an idea for something I just realized is missing.
|
|
|
Post by AudioHTIT on Aug 31, 2014 12:00:55 GMT -5
My Anthem AVM-30 had a mute feature I really liked. You could configure 'Mute' to drop from the current level by -10, 20, 30, 40 dB, or full mute. I liked to go down 30 dB or so during commercials, but still hear something as background and as a trigger when the show starts back up. I remember adding this to an XMC post a couple years ago, but it looks like it didn't make the cut.
Edit: I now see the DC-1 has this feature, so they are aware and have the code.
|
|
|
Post by igorzep on Aug 31, 2014 12:14:08 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by igorzep on Aug 31, 2014 12:25:31 GMT -5
^ Relative Level Offset! easily accessible... forgotten as usual If this was a question I forgot to ask maybe you could start a thread for questions to be asked in Santa Clara next week. You will probably need to be more specific, are you're still referring to subwoofers? However you did give me an idea for something I just realized is missing. RLO is a feature present on the receivers with Audyssey... actually it is there because users were asking it. It is offsetting the reference point so that a Loudness (DynamicEQ) feature could work as designed on non-movie content that is recorded with higher level (to use more of the dynamic range of the 16 bit encoding, or to win loudness war... whatever, there is no standardisation of reference volume level that is followed as well as with movies). Useful/important for DRC/Midnight modes as well. Or any processing that depends on input signal level and/or current Master Volume knob position.
|
|
|
Post by urwi on Aug 31, 2014 15:29:19 GMT -5
Exactly, bluescale was talking about full bandwidth EQ and not just subwoofers.
|
|
|
Post by igorzep on Aug 31, 2014 17:30:35 GMT -5
Exactly, bluescale was talking about full bandwidth EQ and not just subwoofers. Full bandwidth doesn't include low frequencies? Besides of that high Q room problem could only be a resonance, i.e. - standing wave or mode. While reverberation could be long and late (comparing to the wavelength) reflection could create comb-filtering effects that might look to untrained eye at frequency response chart as (tenths/hundreds/thousands of) high peaks and dips they are not really high Q problems (and not really high peaks or large boosts) and so - need not be corrected as such.
|
|
|
Post by bluescale on Aug 31, 2014 21:28:57 GMT -5
- Additional work on dual mono subs for ganged EQ w/separate distances (unlikely) Then I think we need a definitive answer from Lonnie or KeithL how Dirac will EQ dual subs for people who don't want to run in stereo mode. flak has already confirmed that if Dirac is presented with two separate subs, it will EQ them independently. Can one of the Emotiva folks let us know how we're supposed to get a combined flat response?
|
|
|
Post by AudioHTIT on Aug 31, 2014 21:40:30 GMT -5
- Additional work on dual mono subs for ganged EQ w/separate distances (unlikely) Then I think we need a definitive answer from Lonnie or KeithL how Dirac will EQ dual subs for people who don't want to run in stereo mode. flak has already confirmed that if Dirac is presented with two separate subs, it will EQ them independently. Can one of the Emotiva folks let us know how we're supposed to get a combined flat response? Here was my comment about that emotivalounge.proboards.com/post/668004
|
|
|
Post by AudioHTIT on Aug 31, 2014 21:45:48 GMT -5
If this was a question I forgot to ask maybe you could start a thread for questions to be asked in Santa Clara next week. You will probably need to be more specific, are you're still referring to subwoofers? However you did give me an idea for something I just realized is missing. RLO is a feature present on the receivers with Audyssey... actually it is there because users were asking it. It is offsetting the reference point so that a Loudness (DynamicEQ) feature could work as designed on non-movie content that is recorded with higher level (to use more of the dynamic range of the 16 bit encoding, or to win loudness war... whatever, there is no standardisation of reference volume level that is followed as well as with movies). Useful/important for DRC/Midnight modes as well. Or any processing that depends on input signal level and/or current Master Volume knob position. So are you suggesting you posted a question about this that I should have asked? Maybe you can make a specific request for someone to ask at next weeks show.
|
|
|
Post by bluescale on Aug 31, 2014 21:52:18 GMT -5
I was just reading through that thread when you typed this. I've posted my thoughts over there.
|
|
|
Post by urwi on Sept 1, 2014 2:35:51 GMT -5
So what would your approach to room EQ look like? Find all modal peaks in the room and EQ them regardless of the response at the listening position(s) ("having a sharp dip in FR somewhere is still (a lot more) preferable to having a sharp peak")? Up to which frequency? Exactly, bluescale was talking about full bandwidth EQ and not just subwoofers. Full bandwidth doesn't include low frequencies? Besides of that high Q room problem could only be a resonance, i.e. - standing wave or mode. While reverberation could be long and late (comparing to the wavelength) reflection could create comb-filtering effects that might look to untrained eye at frequency response chart as (tenths/hundreds/thousands of) high peaks and dips they are not really high Q problems (and not really high peaks or large boosts) and so - need not be corrected as such.
|
|
|
Post by igorzep on Sept 1, 2014 4:01:53 GMT -5
So what would your approach to room EQ look like? Find all modal peaks in the room and EQ them regardless of the response at the listening position(s)? Basically this is very close approximation... But you shouldn't look at EQ separately. The process starts with 1) Optimizing bass acoustically. So, you get your best with moving subs and possible listening space to avoid sitting in a wide deep dip. This is the most important step to do proper EQ 2) EQ modal problems as described above, and solve non-modal problems with acoustic means (and absorption is very easy at frequencies higher than 200Hz), then fine-tune higher-frequency EQ gently with a min-phase target. 3) No full-bandwith, manage bass, but for satellites, even if the crossover @ 80 Hz and there is a modal problem @ 60 Hz - still reduce it the same way for the correct crossover slope so it will sum well with other bass sources. Hardly there is a lot of modality above 200Hz, and this is easily solved by acoustic means. And there is no listening positions (as points). There are measurement points. But we are always listening in an area... that have a lot of things we aren't measured. It is why it is important to find (understand) a source of the problem and apply correction for a problem and not just the FR curve we see on the screen.
|
|
|
Post by urwi on Sept 1, 2014 5:04:47 GMT -5
While I agree with most you've said, I probably don't see the problem like you do. The number of modes rises with frequency. It's not that modal problems decrease with frequency. It's the correctability with PEQ that decreases with frequency. I also don't make a distinction between boundary reflections and modes because the result is the same. In my experience the region between sub and satellites contributes the most to bad sound quality (magnitude distortion, long reverberation, upward masking, spatial distortion). Neither EQ nor absorbers work good in that region. So what would your approach to room EQ look like? Find all modal peaks in the room and EQ them regardless of the response at the listening position(s)? Basically this is very close approximation... But you shouldn't look at EQ separately. The process starts with 1) Optimizing bass acoustically. So, you get your best with moving subs and possible listening space to avoid sitting in a wide deep dip. This is the most important step to do proper EQ 2) EQ modal problems as described above, and solve non-modal problems with acoustic means (and absorption is very easy at frequencies higher than 200Hz), then fine-tune higher-frequency EQ gently with a min-phase target. 3) No full-bandwith, manage bass, but for satellites, even if the crossover @ 80 Hz and there is a modal problem @ 60 Hz - still reduce it the same way for the correct crossover slope so it will sum well with other bass sources. Hardly there is a lot of modality above 200Hz, and this is easily solved by acoustic means. And there is no listening positions (as points). There are measurement points. But we are always listening in an area... that have a lot of things we aren't measured. It is why it is important to find (understand) a source of the problem and apply correction for a problem and not just the FR curve we see on the screen.
|
|