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Post by teaman on Jul 25, 2014 11:05:46 GMT -5
Hi gang, I currently own two Emotiva set ups. One with the XDA-2 coupled with the XPA-2 Gen 1 and the ERC-2 CD. Second system is an XDA-2 through an XPA-2 Gen 2 with the ERC-3 CD.
Since the site is running the sale with 20% off right now I was thinking of upgrading to a second XPA-2 Gen 2 and running it alongside my other XPA-2 Gen 2 in bridged mono mode. Would this considerably increase the output of my system? I am using a pair of 8ohm Infinity SM 155 studio monitor speakers with 102db sensitivity, a 15" woofer, two 4.5" mids and a 1" tweeter. Even though they are efficient they have a lot going on and use considerable power. I listen to rock music mainly and like the volume to mid high listening levels. Right now the output seems to lack in sheer listening level ability and with the addition of a second amp in bridged mode would this help considerably or is it not worth the investment. The clarity of the Emo amps has me hooked and I love the build quality so this seems like a logical choice for upgrading.
I have an older Class AA Technics SUV-10x amp which plays louder than the Emo ones and it only boasts 120 wpc @ 8ohms. I realize many variables come into play and I know the Technics distorts way more easily than the Emo does. Quality of build goes a long way which is why I keep coming back to this brand.
Thanks.
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Post by Andrew Robinson on Jul 25, 2014 11:25:56 GMT -5
Hi gang, I currently own two Emotiva set ups. One with the XDA-2 coupled with the XPA-2 Gen 1 and the ERC-2 CD. Second system is an XDA-2 through an XPA-2 Gen 2 with the ERC-3 CD. Since the site is running the sale with 20% off right now I was thinking of upgrading to a second XPA-2 Gen 2 and running it alongside my other XPA-2 Gen 2 in bridged mono mode. Would this considerably increase the output of my system? I am using a pair of 8ohm Infinity SM 155 studio monitor speakers with 102db sensitivity, a 15" woofer, two 4.5" mids and a 1" tweeter. Even though they are efficient they have a lot going on and use considerable power. I listen to rock music mainly and like the volume to mid high listening levels. Right now the output seems to lack in sheer listening level ability and with the addition of a second amp in bridged mode would this help considerably or is it not worth the investment. The clarity of the Emo amps has me hooked and I love the build quality so this seems like a logical choice for upgrading. I have an older Class AA Technics SUV-10x amp which plays louder than the Emo ones and it only boasts 120 wpc @ 8ohms. I realize many variables come into play and I know the Technics distorts way more easily than the Emo does. Quality of build goes a long way which is why I keep coming back to this brand. Thanks. Sorry I didn't get to your PM sooner, but here is the answer I was going to send you later today. Given your loudspeakers' efficiency of 102dB I cannot for the life of me see how an additional XPA-2 running in bridge mono mode would make a noticeable difference. Nothing against the amplifier, for it's wonderful, which you yourself attest to, but adding a second would simply be a waste of money in my humble opinion. You're not even taxing the XPA-2 you currently have with those speakers -not even a little bit. It breaks down like this; 102dB at 1 Watt/1 meter means to reach THX levels of output (85dB +20dB of headroom, or 105dB max) your XPA-2 is idling at 2 Watts. Say you sit 9 feet away from your speakers, their effective efficiency drops from 102dB to 96dB. Even at 96dB to reach THX max levels (again, 105dB) you're only using 8 Watts! As for the Technics amp being "louder", that's all relative really. It's not that it can actually play louder, it may just be your perception of louder given any number of factors.
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Post by Bonzo on Jul 25, 2014 11:37:12 GMT -5
Sorry I didn't get to your PM sooner, but here is the answer I was going to send you later today. Given your loudspeakers' efficiency of 102dB I cannot for the life of me see how an additional XPA-2 running in bridge mono mode would make a noticeable difference. Nothing against the amplifier, for it's wonderful, which you yourself attest to, but adding a second would simply be a waste of money in my humble opinion. You're not even taxing the XPA-2 you currently have with those speakers -not even a little bit. It breaks down like this; 102dB at 1 Watt/1 meter means to reach THX levels of output (85dB +20dB of headroom, or 105dB max) your XPA-2 is idling at 2 Watts. Say you sit 9 feet away from your speakers, their effective efficiency drops from 102dB to 96dB. Even at 96dB to reach THX max levels (again, 105dB) you're only using 8 Watts! As for the Technics amp being "louder", that's all relative really. It's not that it can actually play louder, it may just be your perception of louder given any number of factors. I'm thinking about something similar as mentioned in this thread, emotivalounge.proboards.com/thread/37804/delema-switch-xpa-2-1s , but instead of bridging 2 XPA-2s, I'm thinking about moving up to 2 XPA-1's. My speakers have a sensitivity rating of 92, which is a far cry from 102, BUT, I think what you said above can basically be said for me too. I seriously doubt I'm really going to gain anything that is audibly noticeable. It's more a matter of male chest pounding, potential speaker upgrades (though not anytime soon), a little less speaker wire, and better looks in the rack. It's a lot of money just for those things. Damned that male fragility!!!
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Post by Jim on Jul 25, 2014 11:50:19 GMT -5
Hi gang, I currently own two Emotiva set ups. One with the XDA-2 coupled with the XPA-2 Gen 1 and the ERC-2 CD. Second system is an XDA-2 through an XPA-2 Gen 2 with the ERC-3 CD. Since the site is running the sale with 20% off right now I was thinking of upgrading to a second XPA-2 Gen 2 and running it alongside my other XPA-2 Gen 2 in bridged mono mode. Would this considerably increase the output of my system? I am using a pair of 8ohm Infinity SM 155 studio monitor speakers with 102db sensitivity, a 15" woofer, two 4.5" mids and a 1" tweeter. Even though they are efficient they have a lot going on and use considerable power. I listen to rock music mainly and like the volume to mid high listening levels. Right now the output seems to lack in sheer listening level ability and with the addition of a second amp in bridged mode would this help considerably or is it not worth the investment. The clarity of the Emo amps has me hooked and I love the build quality so this seems like a logical choice for upgrading. I have an older Class AA Technics SUV-10x amp which plays louder than the Emo ones and it only boasts 120 wpc @ 8ohms. I realize many variables come into play and I know the Technics distorts way more easily than the Emo does. Quality of build goes a long way which is why I keep coming back to this brand. Thanks. Sorry I didn't get to your PM sooner, but here is the answer I was going to send you later today. Given your loudspeakers' efficiency of 102dB I cannot for the life of me see how an additional XPA-2 running in bridge mono mode would make a noticeable difference. Nothing against the amplifier, for it's wonderful, which you yourself attest to, but adding a second would simply be a waste of money in my humble opinion. You're not even taxing the XPA-2 you currently have with those speakers -not even a little bit. It breaks down like this; 102dB at 1 Watt/1 meter means to reach THX levels of output (85dB +20dB of headroom, or 105dB max) your XPA-2 is idling at 2 Watts. Say you sit 9 feet away from your speakers, their effective efficiency drops from 102dB to 96dB. Even at 96dB to reach THX max levels (again, 105dB) you're only using 8 Watts! As for the Technics amp being "louder", that's all relative really. It's not that it can actually play louder, it may just be your perception of louder given any number of factors. I'm wondering if loudness is simply the voltage that it takes to drive the other amp. Lower powered amp may simply need less voltage to drive it..
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Post by solidstate on Jul 25, 2014 12:23:49 GMT -5
Sorry I didn't get to your PM sooner, but here is the answer I was going to send you later today. Given your loudspeakers' efficiency of 102dB I cannot for the life of me see how an additional XPA-2 running in bridge mono mode would make a noticeable difference. Nothing against the amplifier, for it's wonderful, which you yourself attest to, but adding a second would simply be a waste of money in my humble opinion. You're not even taxing the XPA-2 you currently have with those speakers -not even a little bit. It breaks down like this; 102dB at 1 Watt/1 meter means to reach THX levels of output (85dB +20dB of headroom, or 105dB max) your XPA-2 is idling at 2 Watts. Say you sit 9 feet away from your speakers, their effective efficiency drops from 102dB to 96dB. Even at 96dB to reach THX max levels (again, 105dB) you're only using 8 Watts! As for the Technics amp being "louder", that's all relative really. It's not that it can actually play louder, it may just be your perception of louder given any number of factors. I'm wondering if loudness is simply the voltage that it takes to drive the other amp. Lower powered amp may simply need less voltage to drive it.. The voltage is fixed to 120V AC or 230V AC depending on what country he lives in. I think you mean amperage Jim.
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Post by Jim on Jul 25, 2014 12:28:06 GMT -5
I'm wondering if loudness is simply the voltage that it takes to drive the other amp. Lower powered amp may simply need less voltage to drive it.. The voltage is fixed to 120V AC or 230V AC depending on what country he lives in. I think you mean amperage Jim. Whatever. Driven voltage. Not line voltage. No. Really. I bet 230vac makes it louder. Haha.
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Post by solidstate on Jul 25, 2014 12:34:09 GMT -5
The voltage is fixed to 120V AC or 230V AC depending on what country he lives in. I think you mean amperage Jim. Whatever. Driven voltage. Not line voltage. No. Really. I bet 230vac makes it louder. Haha. You mean the voltage at speaker level output? Looking at the speaker sensitivity suggests they don't require a whole lot of power to reach deafening SPL levels. BTW why would 230vac make it "louder"? If you place a volt meter on the speaker terminals and measure if either amp was sending the same AC voltage they they would produce the SAME SPL level from the loudspeakers despite what mains voltage the amps PSU was receiving. Simple physics/maths. This stuff isn't magic.
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Post by garbulky on Jul 25, 2014 12:45:58 GMT -5
Whatever. Driven voltage. Not line voltage. No. Really. I bet 230vac makes it louder. Haha. You mean the voltage at speaker level output? Looking at the speaker sensitivity suggests they don't require a whole lot of power to reach deafening SPL levels. BTW why would 230vac make it "louder"? If you place a volt meter on the speaker terminals and measure if either amp was sending the same AC voltage they they would produce the SAME SPL level from the loudspeakers despite what mains voltage the amps PSU was receiving. Simple physics/maths. This stuff isn't magic. Depends on which line your run out of power/voltage sag sets in. But I don't think it's an issue with the XPA-2.
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Post by garbulky on Jul 25, 2014 12:51:31 GMT -5
To the op: I think you may be running out of gain or simply actual speaker power. For instance if the tehcnics play it louder at a lower volume knob SETTING doesn't actually mean the technics are more powerful. It just means it gets louder faster ....or in less amount of "turns" of the knob. So for instance if you turn it to max volume, the technics may start distorting while the XPA-2 would not. So the amount you turn the volume knob is actually not necessarily which determines the power. But how much the amps can deliver at its maximum drive. So exploring the twoL Speaker power: You may literally have run out of the physical volume capable from your speakers. Only way to fix that is with more speakers. Running out gain: the XDA-2 can only output so much gain and may run out of pre-amp gain voltage before the maximum output of the amp. If that isn't enough, a used Emotiva USP-1 may be just the ticket as it has TONS of gain. It will also liven up the dynamics by my experience with it and the XDA-2. So if you are positive that your speakers haven't hit its limit -which I think is more likely - and you are not hearing audible clipping from the amp, get yourself a Emotiva USP-1 or a sherbourn Pre-1 pre-amp (out of production - can find used on the forum). Here's a USP-1 preamp for sale: I bet you could get it for $250 emotivalounge.proboards.com/thread/37847/usp1-275-shipped
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Post by solidstate on Jul 25, 2014 12:52:01 GMT -5
Hi gang, I currently own two Emotiva set ups. One with the XDA-2 coupled with the XPA-2 Gen 1 and the ERC-2 CD. Second system is an XDA-2 through an XPA-2 Gen 2 with the ERC-3 CD. Since the site is running the sale with 20% off right now I was thinking of upgrading to a second XPA-2 Gen 2 and running it alongside my other XPA-2 Gen 2 in bridged mono mode. Would this considerably increase the output of my system? I am using a pair of 8ohm Infinity SM 155 studio monitor speakers with 102db sensitivity, a 15" woofer, two 4.5" mids and a 1" tweeter. Even though they are efficient they have a lot going on and use considerable power. I listen to rock music mainly and like the volume to mid high listening levels. Right now the output seems to lack in sheer listening level ability and with the addition of a second amp in bridged mode would this help considerably or is it not worth the investment. The clarity of the Emo amps has me hooked and I love the build quality so this seems like a logical choice for upgrading. I have an older Class AA Technics SUV-10x amp which plays louder than the Emo ones and it only boasts 120 wpc @ 8ohms. I realize many variables come into play and I know the Technics distorts way more easily than the Emo does. Quality of build goes a long way which is why I keep coming back to this brand. Thanks. The SM155s are a twenty year old design using drivers that are obviously dated. You have reached the sonic potential of the loudspeakers themselves and changing amps etc will not increase your sound quality. If you are unhappy with the sound quality then I can only suggest you get a new set of loudspeakers. This is an interesting pair worth a look in around $2k finished and a grand in kit form. It's an MTM time aligned with Wavecor midwoofers and a Raal tweeter in a heavily modified PE cabinet. www.vaporsound.com/speakers/stiff-breeze/Sonically those speakers would blow the doors off of your twenty year old Infinity SM155s in transients et al. The drivers are in a whole other league of performance and you'd be hard pressed to find a better set of speakers for $2k. You will though need a sub to dig as deep as the SM155s. I'd suggest a ported Brian Ding FV15HP. A pair of Stiff Breeze and the FV15HP would definitely outclass your current SM155s but it would set you back close to $4k.
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Post by Jim on Jul 25, 2014 12:52:44 GMT -5
Whatever. Driven voltage. Not line voltage. No. Really. I bet 230vac makes it louder. Haha. You mean the voltage at speaker level output? Looking at the speaker sensitivity suggests they don't require a whole lot of power to reach deafening SPL levels. BTW why would 230vac make it "louder"? If you place a volt meter on the speaker terminals and measure if either amp was sending the same AC voltage they they would produce the SAME SPL level from the loudspeakers despite what mains voltage the amps PSU was receiving. Simple physics/maths. This stuff isn't magic. Man. And here i thought it was magic. I'm not going to respond further to your posts - because you're grossly misunderstanding simple statements that anyone else here would comprehend. If it takes 2v to drive one amp to full output and .5v to drive another.... The amps have different input sensitivities. I know. Complicated stuff.
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Post by solidstate on Jul 25, 2014 13:00:30 GMT -5
You mean the voltage at speaker level output? Looking at the speaker sensitivity suggests they don't require a whole lot of power to reach deafening SPL levels. BTW why would 230vac make it "louder"? If you place a volt meter on the speaker terminals and measure if either amp was sending the same AC voltage they they would produce the SAME SPL level from the loudspeakers despite what mains voltage the amps PSU was receiving. Simple physics/maths. This stuff isn't magic. Depends on which line your run out of power/voltage sag sets in. But I don't think it's an issue with the XPA-2. I'm not sure what you mean. His power plug should not be sagging at all unless he's overloading the circuit.
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Post by garbulky on Jul 25, 2014 13:01:17 GMT -5
Depends on which line your run out of power/voltage sag sets in. But I don't think it's an issue with the XPA-2. I'm not sure what you mean. His power plug should not be sagging at all unless he's overloading the circuit. That's what I thought the OP meant. Maybe I'm wrong.
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Post by solidstate on Jul 25, 2014 13:01:33 GMT -5
You mean the voltage at speaker level output? Looking at the speaker sensitivity suggests they don't require a whole lot of power to reach deafening SPL levels. BTW why would 230vac make it "louder"? If you place a volt meter on the speaker terminals and measure if either amp was sending the same AC voltage they they would produce the SAME SPL level from the loudspeakers despite what mains voltage the amps PSU was receiving. Simple physics/maths. This stuff isn't magic. Man. And here i thought it was magic. I'm not going to respond further to your posts - because you're grossly misunderstanding simple statements that anyone else here would comprehend. If it takes 2v to drive one amp to full output and .5v to drive another.... The amps have different input sensitivities. I know. Complicated stuff. Hey man I'm just trying to help and clarify things you seem to not understand. The rest of what you're saying I honestly don't understand because it makes little sense.
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Post by solidstate on Jul 25, 2014 13:04:48 GMT -5
What we have here is a case of speaker denial...
I've seen it before...
Costs a lot of money in the end buying new amps over and over gain thinking it will somehow MAGICALLY make the loudspeakers perform better!
I can guarantee with absolute certainty a new amp would make no difference in increasing the performance of those speakers.
BTW those speakers could be driven effectively with an AVR let alone an Emotiva amp to be brutally honest.
The diffraction loss on those speaker's baffle must be brutal!
A VERY DATED DESIGN!
If you are not happy with the speakers teaman then please don't waste more money on amps, preamps etc. You need new loudspeakers!
If cost is an issue you should consider building your own speakers from a kit. There are many DIY kits out there that can perform equal to a loudspeaker retailing at 4-6 times the price!
That's the level of return in sonic dollars you get with a nice DIY design IE those Stiff Breeze speakers are on par with speakers costing over $4000 dollars no question.
PM if interested and I'll send you a list of DIY designs at various price points that would definitely be an improvement over those SM155s.
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KeithL
Administrator
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Post by KeithL on Jul 25, 2014 15:26:18 GMT -5
What you're talking about is GAIN. Excluding things like distortion and noise, an amplifier has two main electrical characteristics: maximum power and gain. An amplifier's job is to take the voltage you feed into it and boost that voltage. Unless it has a variable level or gain control, every power amplifier has a specific amount of gain (our current ones have a gain of 29 dB). If I were to take and feed a 0.1v signal into two amplifiers, a 100 watt one and a 1000 watt one, and both had a gain of 29 dB, both would produce the same amount of power into the same load - and play equally loud into the same speaker. Since they have different maximum output power limits, if I start turning up that input voltage, the 100 watt one will start clipping first, while the bigger amp will go on to make more power - but, until the smaller one clips, they will be the same loudness. Most of our current models have the same gain, but different amplifiers made by different manufacturers often have quite different gain (anything between about 20 dB and 30 dB is "normal" for a power amplifier, although most are somewhere just under 30 dB.) In certain designs, there are reasons why a specific gain is chosen, but neither higher nor lower gain is specifically "better" in general. Most modern pre/pros (including ours) include an adjustment for the output level of each channel, which is there specifically so you can match the output level if you're using power amps with slightly different gains. (So, if the Technics amp is louder, when connected to the same source, then it probably just has a slightly higher gain - which isn't better or worse; it's just slightly different.) Sorry I didn't get to your PM sooner, but here is the answer I was going to send you later today. Given your loudspeakers' efficiency of 102dB I cannot for the life of me see how an additional XPA-2 running in bridge mono mode would make a noticeable difference. Nothing against the amplifier, for it's wonderful, which you yourself attest to, but adding a second would simply be a waste of money in my humble opinion. You're not even taxing the XPA-2 you currently have with those speakers -not even a little bit. It breaks down like this; 102dB at 1 Watt/1 meter means to reach THX levels of output (85dB +20dB of headroom, or 105dB max) your XPA-2 is idling at 2 Watts. Say you sit 9 feet away from your speakers, their effective efficiency drops from 102dB to 96dB. Even at 96dB to reach THX max levels (again, 105dB) you're only using 8 Watts! As for the Technics amp being "louder", that's all relative really. It's not that it can actually play louder, it may just be your perception of louder given any number of factors. I'm wondering if loudness is simply the voltage that it takes to drive the other amp. Lower powered amp may simply need less voltage to drive it..
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Post by teaman on Jul 25, 2014 15:32:38 GMT -5
Thanks for all the input and information guys. I was not trying to start a war between anyone and I know how opinions can vary and get heated. All of the info is understood and welcomed. I am glad you elaborated on the bridging of a second amp not being of substantial benefit.
I realize that many feel strongly about the fact I am using 20 yr old speakers but these things really rock...and reach extremely loud levels. I have hooked the Emo amp up to my buddy's Klipsch Heresey III's as well and they do not seem to play very loud through the set up I have either. Anyone that has heard the Klipsch knows they play loud and are in plenty of nightclubs and halls.
I am starting to wonder if in fact it is the XDA-2 preamp as garbulky mentioned. Not a big deal as I can always use the XDA-2 as a stand alone headphone amp that will get plenty of use. I may shop for a different pre amp just to see if it makes a difference. Maybe I am not pushing the volume up nearly high enough for the amp to work.
I usually play theXDA-2 with volume levels around -30db so it may just that the pre is not turned up enough. I know it sounds silly but the good old fashioned volume knob allows you to see how far you are turning it, whereas this 1/4 db up down volume on the XDA-2 keeps me wondering. I don't think it hits any real power point until you get closer to the 0db......can anyone verify or deny this? This may make things easier for me to put everything in perspective.
If anyone wants to add anything or let me know what you think.....please do. I appreciate it!
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Post by teaman on Jul 25, 2014 15:37:21 GMT -5
I just noticed by turning the volume up a bit more and the amp really comes to life. I am in a large living space....about 15 x 30 ft. Must be I am just too tentative on pushing the amp via the set up on the XDA preamp volume control. Sorry for my tentative nature when it comes to the volume control, probably all it was.
By the way, this is why I love Emotiva. Where else do you ask a question and actual information is posted in response not only by the forum members who are very knowledgeable but also the company itself. Thank you everyone!
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KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 9,938
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Post by KeithL on Jul 25, 2014 15:58:03 GMT -5
When the XDA-2 is used as a preamp, it has somewhat less gain than most stand-alone analog preamps, so you may end up turning it to a higher level setting that you would use with a "regular" preamp to drive your amp to full power. This is because, as a DAC with a preamp function built in, the XDA-2 is a little different than a separate preamp. As long as it is able to drive your amp to full output, don't worry at all about what number its volume control is set to (the XDA-2 is perfectly clean, even at nearly "full volume"). Also, even though the XDA-2 won't have any trouble producing enough output to drive most amps to full power when playing a CD or well-recorded digital audio file, it may not have enough gain to play badly recorded digital files (ones that are recorded at way too low a level) to full volume - because it doesn't have as much "extra gain" as an analog preamp to boost a file that is recorded too low to a reasonable level. (This is one area where the XDA-2 is not exactly equivalent to a separate preamp. If you run into this limitation, you could consider adding a separate analog preamp, although the best solution would be to avoid badly recorded files.) Note that the difference doesn't exist because of the type of volume control involved - it is because of the "gain structure" of both. If you put an analog preamp on the output of your XDA-2, that preamp will ADD somewhere between 15 dB and 20 dB of gain (typically) to the gain the XDA-2 already has, which means that you will be able to turn the output level up to 20 dB louder with it. (If you need that gain, then this will help matters; if the XDA-2 already had enough gain to drive your amp to full power, then the extra gain will just mean that you won't have to turn the knob up as far to make it clip.) Thanks for all the input and information guys. I was not trying to start a war between anyone and I know how opinions can vary and get heated. All of the info is understood and welcomed. I am glad you elaborated on the bridging of a second amp not being of substantial benefit. I realize that many feel strongly about the fact I am using 20 yr old speakers but these things really rock...and too extremely loud levels. I have hooked the Emo amp up to my buddy's Klipsch Heresey III's as well and they do not seem to play very loud through the set up I have either. Anyone that has heard the Klipsch knows they play loud and are in plenty of nightclubs and halls. I am starting to wonder if in fact it is the XDA-2 preamp as garbulky mentioned. Not a big deal as I can always use the XDA-2 as a stand alone headphone amp that will get plenty of use. I may shop for a different pre amp just to see if it makes a difference. Just the factor of a dial volume instead of the 1/4 db up down volume on the XDA-2 may make things easier to put in perspective. If anyone wants to add anything or let me know what you think.....please do. I appreciate it!
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KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 9,938
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Post by KeithL on Jul 25, 2014 16:04:29 GMT -5
Now we're into a whole different subject..... Our human hearing varies with frequency, and our hearing is actually flatter (more accurate) at higher listening levels; there is also a background noise level in your listening room which can "cover up" very quiet sounds, which reduces the amount of dynamic range you can hear; both of those facts conspire to make it so that - at least up to a certain point - music usually sounds better when you play it louder. (One of the reasons A/B testing is so tricky is that, all else being equal, whichever system or device you play even a little bit louder usually sounds a little bit better.) Of course, you want to balance all this against avoiding playing things so loud that you damage your hearing... I just noticed by turning the volume up a bit more and the amp really comes to life. I am in a large living space....about 15 x 30 ft. Must be I am just too tentative on pushing the amp via the set up on the XDA preamp volume control. Sorry for my tentative nature when it comes to the volume control, probably all it was. By the way, this is why I love Emotiva. Where else do you ask a question and actual information is posted in response not only by the forum members who are very knowledgeable but also the company itself. Thank you everyone!
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