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Post by teaman on Jul 25, 2014 18:41:18 GMT -5
Per Keith:
Excluding things like distortion and noise, an amplifier has two main electrical characteristics: maximum power and gain.
An amplifier's job is to take the voltage you feed into it and boost that voltage. Unless it has a variable level or gain control, every power amplifier has a specific amount of gain (our current ones have a gain of 29 dB). If I were to take and feed a 0.1v signal into two amplifiers, a 100 watt one and a 1000 watt one, and both had a gain of 29 dB, both would produce the same amount of power into the same load - and play equally loud into the same speaker. Since they have different maximum output power limits, if I start turning up that input voltage, the 100 watt one will start clipping first, while the bigger amp will go on to make more power - but, until the smaller one clips, they will be the same loudness.
Thank you for the additional information Keith. I appreciate your input and thank you for taking some time to explain it to me better.
I may still look into an analog preamp just for the added headroom....or gain.
***Now if money is not an issue or deterrent would it be worth adding a second XPA-2 and running both as monoblocks just for the additional space available before clipping? All sound and volume issues aside, I kind of like the thought or running them as high powered mono blocks.
Feel free to all who chime in.........Thanks again!
Sorry if it sounds repetitive...
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Post by dally on Jul 25, 2014 19:02:08 GMT -5
Are you regularly maxing out the meters on the XPA-2 ? (Red lights) If so,this would indicate clipping, and the need for more power. While not a perfect indicator( the meters do have some margin of error) this will at least give you an idea of what's going on.
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Post by teaman on Jul 25, 2014 19:13:49 GMT -5
No, never even close to clipping. Maybe once the third lights have lit up and back off.
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Post by solidstate on Jul 26, 2014 7:41:22 GMT -5
No, never even close to clipping. Maybe once the third lights have lit up and back off. You should make sure when you encode mp3 FLAC etc that you use NON DESTRUCTIVE meta replay gain using EBU R128 with LUFS target of -23. Apply this non destructive meta replay gain on both a track and album level. dBPowerAmp can do this for you with a DSP plugin. Also make sure your playback software can read and apply this meta replay gain as I have a feeling the issue is the files you are playing back more than anything else. 90% of digital music files are not encoded properly. Use LAME VBR joint stereo quality normal
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Post by solidstate on Jul 26, 2014 8:12:44 GMT -5
Actually the new suggested LUFS target is -18 (Loudness=-18.77LUFS, Gain=0.77dB, Maximum True Peak=-1.00LUFS, True Peak=-1.72LUFS, New gain=0.72dB [clDSP::EndConversion])
This is the new suggested value.
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Post by aud on Jul 26, 2014 10:46:46 GMT -5
Teaman, I can perceive that something is not satisfying you with you're current system. As always Keith explains perfectly what is really going on with audio systems. I love it when he jumps in. He has what I call a teacher's ability to explain things. I just want to add something from my own experience that dovetails with Keith's explanations. About a year ago I decided to relegate my XDA-2 to my family room system for two reasons. The first was because I couldn't get the USB input to play nice with my MacBook on my main system. The second reason, as I was thinking about what to do, to best utilize the XDA-2, I remembered that the two UPA-1's in my family room system had gain specifications of 32dB. I decided to pair the XDA-2 to my UPA-1s. It was a match made in heaven. Remember, the XDA-2 used strictly as a source to a another pre amp you need to set the XDA-2 to 0dB. With my set up above, using the XDA-2 as a pre amp, like you, I only have to push the XDA-2 to -30dB to -25dB for very loud listening levels depending on the recording. My normal listening level for me always hangs around the -40dB to -50db range. As long as you don't have to go past 0dB to get satisfaction you'll be ok. For me, keeping the number of components in the signal chain to a minimum should always be the goal. You stated that money is not a big concern. Go with two clean XPA-1s and then if you are still not satisfied, add the XSP-1 pre amp and remember to set the XDA-2 to 0dB. E-Club here we come! Have we talked about subwoofers yet?
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Post by sct on Jul 26, 2014 11:15:15 GMT -5
I agree with Andrew and SolidState, "ampage" is not your problem, the XPA-2 has plenty of grunt, especially for those *very* efficient speakers. If you are unable to achieve satisfactory sound pressure levels (SPLs) using that amp driving those speakers, one of two things are in play:
1) Your system is in a HUGE room. And I mean auditorium size huge. 2) Your hearing is shot. You are not, by chance, a jackhammer operator <g>?
SolidState is most likely correct in his assessment, you need different/newer speakers. And the ones he recommended appear to be very capable speakers, the RAAL tweeter is truly magnificent!
You might also consider something like the GoldeEar Tritons (1s, 2s, or 7s) or the Tekton Lores or Pendragons. The Tektons are very efficient speakers, drive them with an XPA-2 and you could easily make your ears bleed. And the GoldenEars offer built-in subwoofers with big-a$$ power amps driving the subs. This frees up the XPA-2 to drive only the mid and high freq. drivers. Both companies are internet direct and offer in-home trials. If you are really serious about improving the sound quality of your system, this is where/how you should start...
SCT
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Post by teaman on Jul 26, 2014 11:20:33 GMT -5
Thank you guys. Now that I am not fearing increasing the volume dial like I was previously I have no real concerns now. I found that for my size of room once I cross the -30db or so threshold the amp comes to life. I think now with the help of your information and insight I can be happy with what I am running. I was not sure where the volume hit a danger level but now it is laid out for me and I have no temptation of hitting 0db. All is good!
I still have the ego thing going though about adding a second XPA-2 into the set up and run them both bridged...overkill?.....probably but still tons of headroom and reserve of clean power to be had.....just in case!
The Def Techs and Goldenears have really impressed me. I may look into scooping up a pair. I appreciate the advice!~
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Post by sct on Jul 26, 2014 11:44:54 GMT -5
Shelve your ego and forget about getting another XPA-2, that would be an embarrassing waste of money. Spend your money where it will actually do some good: first and foremost, room treatments! I am constantly amazed at the folks who think nothing of throwing dollar after dollar into the latest and greatest amps, preamps, speakers, etc. and then place all that fabulous gear in a sh!tty room. Talk about dumb as a mud fence! It'd be like buying a Formula 1 racecar and the only place you can drive it is a rutted gravel road. Not too clever, eh?
Instead of dropping another grand on an amp, take that money and invest in some quality room treatment devices. When done properly, the improvement in sound quality is *astonishing*. Nothing else you can do will make as much of an improvement - NOTHING.
And good on ya for really listening to what folks are saying, you're sure to learn quite a bit very quickly!!
SCT
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novisnick
EmoPhile
CEO Secret Monoblock Society
Posts: 27,213
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Post by novisnick on Jul 26, 2014 11:53:53 GMT -5
Shelve your ego and forget about getting another XPA-2, that would be an embarrassing waste of money. Spend your money where it will actually do some good: first and foremost, room treatments! I am constantly amazed at the folks who think nothing of throwing dollar after dollar into the latest and greatest amps, preamps, speakers, etc. and then place all that fabulous gear in a sh!tty room. Talk about dumb as a mud fence! It'd be like buying a Formula 1 racecar and the only place you can drive it is a rutted gravel road. Not too clever, eh? Instead of dropping another grand on an amp, take that money and invest in some quality room treatment devices. When done properly, the improvement in sound quality is *astonishing*. Nothing else you can do will make as much of an improvement - NOTHING. And good on ya for really listening to what folks are saying, you're sure to learn quite a bit very quickly!! SCT A little civility would be nice. This IS a family forum ya know.
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Post by sct on Jul 26, 2014 12:00:32 GMT -5
What are you on about, mate? I had no idea you were a Moderator. And this is an adult forum, we're not discussing child care and diaper changing...
SCT
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Post by teaman on Jul 26, 2014 12:26:45 GMT -5
Thanks again everyone, sorry to stir things up.
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Post by solidstate on Jul 26, 2014 15:29:46 GMT -5
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Post by teaman on Jul 26, 2014 15:48:26 GMT -5
Thanks guys, I am just going to hold out. Believe it or not I still enjoy my speakers. No longer afraid to turn the volume up over -30db, so I am pretty set for now. If anything I may add some amps to my Yamaha AVR in the rec room. Speakers will follow. Thanks for all the info.
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Post by solidstate on Jul 26, 2014 16:14:18 GMT -5
Thanks guys, I am just going to hold out. Believe it or not I still enjoy my speakers. No longer afraid to turn the volume up over 30db, I am pretty set for now. If anything I may add some amps to my Yamaha AVR in the rec room. Speakers will follow. Thanks for all the info. I just read a bunch of your post history and your liking of the Klipsch Heresy so I figure you'd really like these particular DIY designs. www.diysoundgroup.com/
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Post by teaman on Jul 26, 2014 18:07:53 GMT -5
The line array speakers by Selahaudio you linked me look amazing. I was always a huge fan of line array since hearing some McIntosh XR290's and a nice Infinity set up in the late 80's. Cool links solidstate....thank you!
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Post by solidstate on Jul 26, 2014 20:48:02 GMT -5
The line array speakers by Selahaudio you linked me look amazing. I was always a huge fan of line array since hearing some McIntosh XR290's and a nice Infinity set up in the late 80's. Cool links solidstate....thank you! Line arrays have a lot of combing artifacts etc and generally only sound good if you are sitting back a good 12 feet plus. In that price bracket for a large room I'd go Danley Labs Synergy Horns over any line array and if you're really nuts and have a MASSIVE OUTDOOR THEATER you could stack them in an array hahaha. If I have a good take on the type of speakers you like, and I think I do, those DIY Sound Group Tempest 12s or '88 Special' would really blow your mind... HUGE DYNAMICS with a HUGE SOUNDSTAGE I'd them pair them with a Bill Fitzmaurice Tuba TH! hahaha INSANE! You could pull a flat 8Hz to 18kHz at a good 110dB PLUS!!! We are talking SCARE THE HELL OUTTA YA DYNAMICS AND SPL!!!
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Post by solidstate on Jul 26, 2014 21:37:45 GMT -5
The line array speakers by Selahaudio you linked me look amazing. I was always a huge fan of line array since hearing some McIntosh XR290's and a nice Infinity set up in the late 80's. Cool links solidstate....thank you! If you are interested in line arrays you should checkout Don Keele's CBT or "Constand Beamwidth Transducer" as it's the only scientific/acoustic breakthrough in loudspeaker design in the last 30 years. www.xlrtechs.com/dbkeele.com/CBT.phpwww.audioartistry.com/products_CBT.htmMotherload on CBTs www.xlrtechs.com/dbkeele.com/Don%27s%20CBT%20Goodies%20Zip%20Download.htmlDon's Keynote speech on CBTs at the Midwest Audiofest in 2010. Don did a fantastic talk at the AES Chicago meeting but I can find the video from it. This is the biggest technological breakthrough in loudspeaker design in 30 years. JBL has implemented it in a installed sound reinforcement PA duties for say an airport etc in a DSP controlled straight non curved array where the DSP engine can actually steer the sound sorta like an AESA radar. The Duran Audio group worked on it and I'm certain it uses CBT technology IE it uses Legendre functions. They are calling it "Intellivox" and I think they are ditching their other CBT products as the PA speakers didn't market well with the intended audience. You can find a JBL CBT 50LA-1 for as little as $300 bucks each from the right music/pro audio store as they are EOL.
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Post by teaman on Jul 27, 2014 1:57:48 GMT -5
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Post by solidstate on Jul 27, 2014 11:24:03 GMT -5
You should take a long hard look at the DIY Sound Group Fusion 15 Sentinel v2 when it ships soon. I have a strange feeling you'd fall in love with that speaker. I should also mention JTR and Seaton as well as they are your type of loudspeaker. The JTR Noesis 212HT at $2200 bucks a speaker really isn't that expensive considering it has a $700 compression tweeter in the design and that very nice aluminum waveguide also worth at least $125 bucks so the tweeter section is almost a grand WHOLESALE and he does have nice cabinets. Those CBT, though very very nice, do not have the dynamics and sensitivity that I believe makes the type of loudspeaker you'll enjoy. Seaton also has some models you'd like but they are even more expensive than the JTR 212s. If you have the ability, I'd do an audition of the Danley Labs Synergy SH60/50s as I'm certain they would really blow you away though they cost a small fortune. To be honest the SH60 is one of the nicest sounding loudspeakers I've ever heard when used with an active xover and EQ'd properly. A lot can be said for a point source!
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