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Post by garbulky on Aug 8, 2014 14:06:58 GMT -5
Because you're not measuring the right thing. Or intepreting the differences correctly. That's rather vague. How does one measure treble extension? I don't know. But I think that's sort of the point....equating just a few tests like say a frequency response sweep with how we hear stuf. How does one measure what made a soundstage seem wider vs another amp? I don't have any idea! But the answer is probably complex. Or you could take the easy way out and say they were just imagining it
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Post by jackpine on Aug 8, 2014 14:15:58 GMT -5
Sometimes you just have to trust your ears, the most sensitive sound measurement tool at most peoples disposal. Any one of us could hear the difference between $200 student violin a $2,000 pro musicians violin and a $25,000,000 Stradivarius playing the same note at a normalized level. Could we learn to pick out the differences with a oscilloscope or spectrum analyzer I imagine so. There is no instrument I know of that will I split good, better, best spec though, ears are best for that.
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Post by Boomzilla on Aug 8, 2014 14:56:24 GMT -5
I don't think that this is a frequency-response issue. I've run into the same thing with DACs. Two can measure identically but sound differently. The analysts among us (Mr. Yohn and others), whose opinions I respect, say that even if I think I hear differences, they don't really exist. Nevertheless, In my room, with my equipment, and to my ears, equipment differences do exist. Back in the day, one of the hi-fi magazines pointed out that there was no measurable difference between a mass-market receiver and a high-end amplifier, and they then proceeded to "prove" it with double-blind testing. Pardon me for being skeptical (then and now).
Back to personal experience - I DO think that some equipment sounds better than the rest. Otherwise, we could all buy what's on sale at Wal-Mart and Emotiva would be out of business. I hear what I hear. To my ears, Emotiva gear sounds better than the Crown Class-D amps. The difference is not giant, and if I were using speakers (or commercial PA monitors) that had a bright treble, I might prefer the Crown. But with neutral speakers, I think the Emo sounds better.
How to describe the differences? Our audio lexicon is inadequate, so we have to rely on similes, metaphors, and other linguistic tricks. As I said before, the Crown XLS series amps (yes, all of them) sound restricted in the treble. This sounds like a frequency response limitation, but may not be. An Emotiva amp usually sounds as if I'm listening in a huge venue, with decay of treble transients (in particular) sounding as if they diminish naturally over distance. The Crown sounds as if I'm listening in a much smaller space and with sound damping materials applied everywhere. I call it "constipated" sound (though we won't go down that road too far).
The differences are consistent. I've listened to the Crown with "audiophile" speakers, with mass-market speakers, and with public address monitors. I've listened in my living room, on my carport, and in the reception halls of local hotels. I get the same impression everywhere. Now with PA speaker, and in a huge venue, the effect is diminished, but the better amps still sound more "open."
Sorry I can't describe it more succinctly but that's the best I've got. You're welcome to believe me or not, and your experiences may not agree with mine. Nevertheless, that's my story, and I'm sticking to it. LOL
Boomzilla
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Post by Cogito on Aug 8, 2014 15:02:08 GMT -5
Sometimes you just have to trust your ears, the most sensitive sound measurement tool at most peoples disposal. Any one of us could hear the difference between $200 student violin a $2,000 pro musicians violin and a $25,000,000 Stradivarius playing the same note at a normalized level. Could we learn to pick out the differences with a oscilloscope or spectrum analyzer I imagine so. There is no instrument I know of that will I split good, better, best spec though, ears are best for that. What you "hear" differs depending on what time of the day it is, your mood,your health, etc. and is not so reliable. The only thing you can trust with your ears is "does it sound good or not" at any particular moment. Believe me, I'm not a measurement junky, but measurements are important under the right context. Often times, they can objectively confirm what you hear. As for your violin example... I think you'll find that when the average person listens to a violin, it's sounds like, well, a violin. The average person would not routinely detect any real difference between them without the benefit of a direct A,B,C comparison. Even then, they would probably not hear any "obvious" differences. Now... Ask a professional violinist. They may be able to detect these nuances that the different violins have because he/she knows what to look for. Yes, I know the argument. From experience, people hear obvious differences between electronics (Amp/Preamp,CD,etc.). Blind test after blind test shows this to be untrue. So you may ask, why can a trained musician hear differences between different violins and "trained" audiophiles can't hear the difference between electronics? The easy answer is... The magnitude of the differences... Let me explain. Harmonics, resonances, etc. with instruments are measured in the double digit percentages. After all, this is what makes a violin sound like a violin. Now compare this to well designed/made amps and such. They are typically designed to have flat frequency responses and low distortion. The differences usually fall below audibility by design. After all, we want to replicate the sound of the violin without adding it's own sonic signature.
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Post by knucklehead on Aug 8, 2014 15:16:55 GMT -5
I'd have to agree with garbulky on this one - The Crown is a fine amp, and opens up a bit after it warms up, but it isn't a direct competitor for Emotiva's X-series amps. In comparison, Crown's class-D amps sound a slight bit less extended in the treble. Is this a measurable difference? Probably not, but I'm not the only one who has claimed to hear it. Devil's Advocate Question: If it's "probably not" measurable with equipment than can discern fractions of a dB, how could the difference be discernible by ears that can barely detect a difference of 1 dB, never mind the fact that human hearing is vastly less sensitive in the upper octave range? These claims of hearing what can't be measured go on all the time around here.
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novisnick
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Post by novisnick on Aug 8, 2014 15:27:42 GMT -5
Devil's Advocate Question: If it's "probably not" measurable with equipment than can discern fractions of a dB, how could the difference be discernible by ears that can barely detect a difference of 1 dB, never mind the fact that human hearing is vastly less sensitive in the upper octave range? These claims of hearing what can't be measured go on all the time around here. I heard that!!!
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Post by monkumonku on Aug 8, 2014 15:37:42 GMT -5
Sometimes you just have to trust your ears, the most sensitive sound measurement tool at most peoples disposal. Any one of us could hear the difference between $200 student violin a $2,000 pro musicians violin and a $25,000,000 Stradivarius playing the same note at a normalized level. Could we learn to pick out the differences with a oscilloscope or spectrum analyzer I imagine so. There is no instrument I know of that will I split good, better, best spec though, ears are best for that. What you "hear" differs depending on what time of the day it is, your mood,your health, etc. and is not so reliable. The only thing you can trust with your ears is "does it sound good or not" at any particular moment. Believe me, I'm not a measurement junky, but measurements are important under the right context. Often times, they can objectively confirm what you hear. As for your violin example... I think you'll find that when the average person listens to a violin, it's sounds like, well, a violin. The average person would not routinely detect any real difference between them without the benefit of a direct A,B,C comparison. Even then, they would probably not hear any "obvious" differences. Now... Ask a professional violinist. They may be able to detect these nuances that the different violins have because he/she knows what to look for. Yes, I know the argument. From experience, people hear obvious differences between electronics (Amp/Preamp,CD,etc.). Blind test after blind test shows this to be untrue. So you may ask, why can a trained musician hear differences between different violins and "trained" audiophiles can't hear the difference between electronics? The easy answer is... The magnitude of the differences... Let me explain. Harmonics, resonances, etc. with instruments are measured in the double digit percentages. After all, this is what makes a violin sound like a violin. Now compare this to well designed/made amps and such. They are typically designed to have flat frequency responses and low distortion. The differences usually fall below audibility by design. After all, we want to replicate the sound of the violin without adding it's own sonic signature. I agree with you in absolutely objective terms but psychology enters into it so much that even if on day 1 someone claims to hear a difference between gear A versus B, after which you conduct a blind test and they are then unable to reliably choose one from the other on a consistent basis, on day 2 they're going to be back to hearing differences and will be wondering why they weren't able to pick out such an obvious difference during the blind test (and maybe even suspect you rigged it somehow). People are going to believe what they want to believe. If they're enjoying themselves then who are we to try and pop their balloon? Why do people join health clubs when 99% of them drop out after a few days or why do people buy so many books and not read them? If the publisher got paid only for the books people bought that they actually read, they would go broke. Or why do so many people go on a diet but just get larger? Same reason we buy audio gear and believe (rightly or wrongly) that we hear a difference - because people want to feel good about themselves. Anyway that's just my two cents, which I posted so I could feel good, too.
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Post by Andrew Robinson on Aug 8, 2014 16:15:17 GMT -5
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Post by frankie2075 on Aug 8, 2014 16:41:16 GMT -5
hey andrew yes i have read it twice which gave me even more reason to consider the crown amps for LCR.. by the way love your stuff
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Post by Andrew Robinson on Aug 8, 2014 18:06:43 GMT -5
hey andrew yes i have read it twice which gave me even more reason to consider the crown amps for LCR.. by the way love your stuff Thanks, I sincerely appreciate it. More "stuff" on the way!
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Post by garbulky on Aug 8, 2014 21:31:15 GMT -5
hey andrew yes i have read it twice which gave me even more reason to consider the crown amps for LCR.. by the way love your stuff Thanks, I sincerely appreciate it. More "stuff" on the way! Andrew you ever going to let us see your XPA-1 review? Looking forward to it!
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Post by frankie2075 on Aug 9, 2014 7:35:35 GMT -5
Thanks, I sincerely appreciate it. More "stuff" on the way! Andrew you ever going to let us see your XPA-1 review? Looking forward to it! Yes! i agree
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Post by tieftoener on Aug 14, 2014 14:52:05 GMT -5
Devil's Advocate Question: If it's "probably not" measurable with equipment than can discern fractions of a dB, how could the difference be discernible by ears that can barely detect a difference of 1 dB, never mind the fact that human hearing is vastly less sensitive in the upper octave range? Because you're not measuring the right thing. Or intepreting the differences correctly. The "if you can't measure it, it doesn't exist" argument is incomplete due to the assumption that what is being measured is all that matters... and/or that the resolution measured is "sufficient." So, if there's a difference that's heard, and the two items measure "the same" - are you really measuring the right thing (or measuring it close enough)? Why is it that people can hear the difference between two amps, both with ruler flat FR 30-20kHz, that both measure 0.01% THD (pretty common these days)... through a speaker that's producing 0.5% to 1% THD (That's two orders of magnitude difference!) Because THD isn't the only distortion. Nor SMPTE IMD. Nor FR aberrations. Yes, these are all good indications of performance, but they do not necessarily determine what will "sound better." And what's more, people will disagree which sounds "better..." Note, the fact that there's a disagreement, doesn't negate the principle that they both hear a difference. <dismount from soap box>
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cgolf
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Post by cgolf on Aug 14, 2014 16:54:31 GMT -5
We need to remember that there is an "art" and a "science" to most everything and anything. There is a science to music but there is also an art to music. There is a science to listening (measures, frequencies, room setup -which could also be partially an art, etc.) but there is an art to listening (our ears, moods, age, etc.). Me, I'm going with a combination art & science but ultimately in the end, the art part will win me over the science. Certain speakers, amps, processors, pre-pros, etc. may be "better" statistically and on paper, but if another one sounds better to me, then that's the one I'll choose because it sounds better and I like it better. I think this premise is true for most anything in life (with certain exceptions!!) BTW, I had some Crown amps and have sold all of them. I think the Emo amps are a much higher quality and sound fuller and more powerful.......
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Post by sct on Aug 14, 2014 17:17:03 GMT -5
"through a speaker that's producing 0.5% to 1% THD (That's two orders of magnitude difference!) " If you can find a speaker, ANY speaker, that has only 1% THD (or less), I'll give you a crisp Benjie in Macy's front window while kissing your ass (or donkey, you decide <g>) AND I'll give you an hour to draw a crowd. Even the very best speakers exhibit 3-10% distortion. That is why it is so funny to see folks stressing over differences of less than 0.1% THD in their electronics. SCT
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novisnick
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Post by novisnick on Aug 14, 2014 17:21:16 GMT -5
"through a speaker that's producing 0.5% to 1% THD (That's two orders of magnitude difference!) " If you can find a speaker, ANY speaker, that has only 1% THD (or less), I'll give you a crisp Benjie in Macy's front window while kissing your ass (or donkey, you decide <g>) AND I'll give you an hour to draw a crowd. Even the very best speakers exhibit 3-10% distortion. That is why it is so funny to see folks stressing over differences of less than 0.1% THD in their electronics. SCT Pucker up,,,,,,he,,,,,he,,,,he,,,,,, Just kidding,,,,,he,,,,he,,,,, Attachments:
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bootman
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Typing useless posts on internet forums....
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Post by bootman on Aug 14, 2014 19:03:37 GMT -5
Because you're not measuring the right thing. Or intepreting the differences correctly. The "if you can't measure it, it doesn't exist" argument is incomplete due to the assumption that what is being measured is all that matters... and/or that the resolution measured is "sufficient." So, if there's a difference that's heard, and the two items measure "the same" - are you really measuring the right thing (or measuring it close enough)? Why is it that people can hear the difference between two amps, both with ruler flat FR 30-20kHz, that both measure 0.01% THD (pretty common these days)... through a speaker that's producing 0.5% to 1% THD (That's two orders of magnitude difference!) Because THD isn't the only distortion. Nor SMPTE IMD. Nor FR aberrations. Yes, these are all good indications of performance, but they do not necessarily determine what will "sound better." And what's more, people will disagree which sounds "better..." Note, the fact that there's a disagreement, doesn't negate the principle that they both hear a difference. <dismount from soap box> Well that and the simple but often overlooked fact is that no two humans have the same hearing frequency response. Why do you think there is so many different opinions on how something sounds? I'm lucky in that most SS amps (to me) sound the same and the biggest difference (for me) is in dynamics. Now finding material that can show these dynamic differences is hard but I say pick up an old Telarc Star Tracks CD and you will quickly find out if your system clips or not. Now if we talk tubes, well that can be a whole new thread.
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Post by knucklehead on Aug 14, 2014 19:20:57 GMT -5
Sometimes you just have to trust your ears, the most sensitive sound measurement tool at most peoples disposal. Any one of us could hear the difference between $200 student violin a $2,000 pro musicians violin and a $25,000,000 Stradivarius playing the same note at a normalized level. Could we learn to pick out the differences with a oscilloscope or spectrum analyzer I imagine so. There is no instrument I know of that will I split good, better, best spec though, ears are best for that. Trust your ears? Watch this video - and listen closely as you do. Now how much do you trust your ears? Hmm?
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Post by sme on Aug 15, 2014 2:06:11 GMT -5
I recently picked up Portraits of Cuba (in HD FLAC rather than CD): www.amazon.com/Portraits-Cuba-Paquito-DRivera/dp/B000003GGWFantastic dynamics! Its "reference volume" is approximately the same as a theatrical mix according to Bob Katz who mastered it. On my receiver, that reads "0". The scary thing is that there isn't a whole lot of bass taking up that dynamic range. Those horns will give your tweeters a work out indeed!
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Post by Cogito on Aug 15, 2014 7:49:16 GMT -5
Because you're not measuring the right thing. Or intepreting the differences correctly. The "if you can't measure it, it doesn't exist" argument is incomplete due to the assumption that what is being measured is all that matters... and/or that the resolution measured is "sufficient." So, if there's a difference that's heard, and the two items measure "the same" - are you really measuring the right thing (or measuring it close enough)? Why is it that people can hear the difference between two amps, both with ruler flat FR 30-20kHz, that both measure 0.01% THD (pretty common these days)... through a speaker that's producing 0.5% to 1% THD (That's two orders of magnitude difference!) Because THD isn't the only distortion. Nor SMPTE IMD. Nor FR aberrations. Yes, these are all good indications of performance, but they do not necessarily determine what will "sound better." And what's more, people will disagree which sounds "better..." Note, the fact that there's a disagreement, doesn't negate the principle that they both hear a difference. <dismount from soap box> "Why is it that people can hear the difference between two amps, both with ruler flat FR 30-20kHz, that both measure 0.01% THD (pretty common these days)... through a speaker that's producing 0.5% to 1% THD (That's two orders of magnitude difference!) " But they really can't. Unless one particular amp is being driven beyond it's ability, or is poorly designed, people can NOT reliably tell the difference between amps, preamps, CD players, etc. Moving a speaker three inches would have far more effect on the sound than switching out your Krell amp for a Sony receiver. Yes, I'm a Julian Hirsch fan. As for speaker distortion... Most speakers enter well into the double digits when it comes to distortion, especially in the bass region.
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