a2058
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Post by a2058 on Feb 12, 2009 23:21:51 GMT -5
Well, got my RPA-2 today. This is a new unit, was trying to get a B-stock but that didn't pan out so decided to just go for it. A little background: I have LMC-1 connected to 2 LPA-1s in a passive bi-amp configuration for 7 speakers, Tannoy Mercury F-4 all around (91dB 8Ohm floor standers) with DIY supertweeters. I am bi-amping in a "separated" configuration where one LPA takes on only the bass frequency duty and another taking the high frequency. In my previous rather exhaustive experimentation, I concluded this offered the best in clarity, separation and transparency. Add to this the RPA-2 for front L/R duty.
The listening I was able to do (all of 2 hours tonight) was basically "off the truck" so no breaking in of the amp yet. Initial observation in 2 channel listening, I immediately noticed some quite harsh sounding tones that other professional reviewers commented about these class H units off the truck. Ok... but the bass and mid range were subtle but noticeably more full WITHOUT making it sound like a wall of sound. This point was very cool. When I experimented with bi-amping LPAs in a "staggered" configuration (LF and HF alternatingly distributed among both amps) I noticed the sound to be more full all around but sounded like it was a wall of sound and losing the definition and transparency gained through the "separated" configuration. Anyway, I immediately noted the mid range to bass more defined and louder without making it sound like undefined wall of sound. This has potential... I thought. More listening later, I noted definite harshness in the mid-high to high frequencies. This again could be attributed to the amp needing breaking in. The total sound output levels were about 5dB LESS than that coming from LPA-1s only. Interesting as they are rated to have the same gain structures of 29dB... Then I recalled I am using unbalanced inputs and those have been documented by Audioholics review to have less gain sensitivity than the balanced inputs... makes sense. I pull out my trusty radioshack SPL meter and recalibrate all my speakers. Now my LPAs are only powering 5 speakers (no L/R at that) at rather small current draws (C/SL/SR/SBL/SBR) so I think I am getting actually more intensity out of the center channel than I remembered (adjust the sound level accordingly). Now I try SACD 5.1 recordings. Class A/B and class H melded surprisingly well. What I noticed here immediately was the increase in the sound field by at least 20 degrees in both left and right and about 5 meters behind the front speakers. Also of crazy note is that I can now here stuff that are very very subtle, like the artist slightly sliding his fingers along the guitar strings in preparation prior to hitting the first notes, singer wetting her mouth and lips prior to the first phrase of the song, somebody squeaking the floor board with his/her shoes etc. This is quite revealing...
I need to see if this harshness will go away, as I recall reading somewhere that these class H amps take a good 30 days to break them in. The idle hiss from the tweeters are much much less than those from LPA-1 (which already is very quiet but somewhat audible) and the unit looks sexy, with one click of the dim switch I can match the light levels from LPA-1 front panels.
Do I keep it? Good question. I don't think one can do much better than this in terms of going after transparency and clarity without spending lots more money. Only question that remains for me is this harshness that needs to go away. I'll keep the amp playing something all weekend long to see what that will do, but so far I think this is the absolute best my current speakers can do probably. I think the bi-amped LPA-1 in the "separated" configuration was actually approaching RPA type sounds quite well, only lacking a little fullness in the low-mid range and a little definition in the base tones. That's why probably I did not notice such a difference in sounds when I was playing the 5.1 format recordings. Combination of an RPA-2 and 2 LPA-1s driving only 5 lesser demanding channels may be the ticket to Nirvana for me with my system.
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Post by bigred7078 on Feb 13, 2009 1:34:10 GMT -5
sweet review!!! I have actually never experienced harshness from the RPA-1. Perhaps its just more nuetral? i dunno. But i guess give it some time. Enjoy the ongoing audition!  |
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a2058
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Post by a2058 on Feb 14, 2009 11:33:12 GMT -5
So, I kept adjusting and playing different source material. The key was adjusting the treble down by 2dB and now the harsh tones are almost non-discernible. My speakers are bright especially with the supertweeters going at 6dB sensitivity wired in paralell. Now with this setup, it melds very nicely with dual LPAs powering the center channel and surrounds. I've had a few "brings tears to my eyes" moments with this setup. What is interesting is that I seem to have to run the whole system about 5dB louder to get the same sound intensity as I used to get from the dual LPAs doing all 7 channels. I guess that's what they mean by class A/B being more dynamic. Class H is not as loud in the total sound pressure sense of the word, but when you do kick it up, it delivers more detail and fullness without being undefined and just loud. It is certainly more engaging, too much so at times, but that's very cool.
What I also noted was now I prefer the DTS Neo6 for surround matrix play back rather than the DPLIIx. With dual LPA setup, I definitely prefered the DPLIIx. Neo6 seems to more closely reflect the bypassed 2-channel tonality better when the class H is in the mix.
At this point, I think I am voting RPA-2 a "keeper". More breaking-in will hopefully mellow this out a bit. This is still the day 3...
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Post by Wideawake on Feb 14, 2009 13:24:48 GMT -5
Solid state components without moving parts do not require breaking in. What is likely to occur is that you will get used to the sound of the amp and that will seem like the amp has been broken in.
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a2058
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Post by a2058 on Feb 14, 2009 15:27:05 GMT -5
Solid state components without moving parts do not require breaking in. What is likely to occur is that you will get used to the sound of the amp and that will seem like the amp has been broken in. Then I guess comments made here: www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_14_2/emotiva-rsp-1-preamplifier-rpa-1-power-amplifier-5-2007-part-3.html"As per my usual review plan, I installed the components and used them for about two weeks for casual listening and home theater applications. I found that this was not a sufficient break-in period for the Emotivas. Another week or so was necessary for the components to really reach their full potential. The 30 day trial period offered by Emotiva should be perfectly adequate to hear what the RSP-1 and RPA-1 can do, just don't expect optimal performance the day you unpack them; give them 2-3 weeks to achieve their full potential." is a BS...  |
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Feb 14, 2009 15:45:20 GMT -5
is a BS... Opinions are not necessarily BS of course. We are all entitled to them. But the idea that solid state electronics require some sort of break in IS complete BS. What is breaking in is the listener's perceptions. |
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a2058
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Post by a2058 on Feb 14, 2009 16:17:42 GMT -5
If no break-in is required at all, then what that review translates to is that the reviewer thought 2~3 weeks of playing was required to "get used to" the RPA sound. So if no break-in is required, is the class H RPA sound that different to the reviewer to get used to? I really doubt that. I have my CD player on a continuous loop and am not in the room at all when this is going on. Now after about 3 days of this, it feels like it sounds a bit softer than right off the truck. May be my ears are deteriorating at an alarming rate  |
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a2058
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Post by a2058 on Feb 14, 2009 18:54:42 GMT -5
A doh!! moment... (Homer Simpson would have been proud). So I was going to move the RPA-2 into my rack now and was fussing with the connections and found out I had completely f^%ked up the speaker wire connections! I had bi-amped before so I separated all the HF/LF lines to the front L/R. I use stackable banana plugs, so I thought I connected the HF line on top of the LF line for both speakers. Sure I did... but, positive and negatives were switched! So, it looks as though the HF elements were driven in a reverse polaity configuration. No wonder it sounded harsh and did not blend. Now all's corrected CORRECTLY and back to listening. This totally mellowed out the HF/LF mixing issues and am very satisfied, still -2.0dB off the treble but otherwise it is crazy good. I confidently vote "yes" and this is a "keeper". Getting too old to see that red wire and red wire go together.  |
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a2058
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Post by a2058 on Feb 18, 2009 21:44:00 GMT -5
Having listened to this amp for about a week now everyday, I am very confident that this was a significant upgrade. I am in love with this thing. The 2-channel listening never sounded so good, ever on my system. I do hear however that there is a problem mixing together with the dual-LPA setup for multi-channel audio. I can clearly hear the Center channel being a little bit "different" than the L/R channels in most situations. Almost hearing/seeing a slight double sound image due to this slight difference in tonality. I have calibrated and recalibrated at least 4 times, and still this is not resolved so it can't be coming from the SPL issue alone. There IS an audible difference between LPA-type pure class A/B and the RPA amp. Since at the sound levels I operate in most cases (needles moving to -40dB tops), I believe this is in the order of 0.02W output wattage (log scale, 0dB being 200W according to Lonnie) so it is likely that RPA is still operating in class A/B and not yet switched to higher voltage rails. That means that having independent monoblocks for each speaker makes SO MUCH difference here (I now see the reason why people are raving about the multiple XPA-1 approach...). I am working on a potential solution to my center channel situation now and will update as I make progress in this area...  |
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Post by bigred7078 on Feb 19, 2009 17:43:58 GMT -5
Having listened to this amp for about a week now everyday, I am very confident that this was a significant upgrade. I am in love with this thing. The 2-channel listening never sounded so good, ever on my system. I do hear however that there is a problem mixing together with the dual-LPA setup for multi-channel audio. I can clearly hear the Center channel being a little bit "different" than the L/R channels in most situations. Almost hearing/seeing a slight double sound image due to this slight difference in tonality. I have calibrated and recalibrated at least 4 times, and still this is not resolved so it can't be coming from the SPL issue alone. There IS an audible difference between LPA-type pure class A/B and the RPA amp. Since at the sound levels I operate in most cases (needles moving to -40dB tops), I believe this is in the order of 0.02W output wattage (log scale, 0dB being 200W according to Lonnie) so it is likely that RPA is still operating in class A/B and not yet switched to higher voltage rails. That means that having independent monoblocks for each speaker makes SO MUCH difference here (I now see the reason why people are raving about the multiple XPA-1 approach...). I am working on a potential solution to my center channel situation now and will update as I make progress in this area... awesome great to hear!!! I however have not had any issues mixing the RPA-1 and XPA-3. They mix pretty nicely to me. Then again i'm not big on multichannel music (althought the few Blu-Ray concerts i have sound darn good). |
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a2058
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Post by a2058 on Feb 19, 2009 19:30:12 GMT -5
I run identical 3 floor standing speakers up front, so basically everything's identical up there except the amps... I think this really focuses the tonality difference quite severely. From the white noise calibration tone, I can actually hear the difference between the L/R and the center. I have tried switching speakers etc., but this is really coming from the amp section, seems to me...
So, I just bought a B-stock Outlaw 2200 monoblock to try and at the same time I asked Cathy for a B-stock RPA-2 (available in 2 weeks... may be). My guess is the 2200 will make some improvement but I will likely still hear some difference, and probably also hate the looks of it, and end up returning it in exchange for a B-stock RPA-2! ;D
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RPA-1 man
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Post by RPA-1 man on Feb 22, 2009 10:14:08 GMT -5
Glad to hear you like the RPA-2. I've never heard the LPA or XPA amps but my RPA-1 replaced a NAD 2200PE. As you stated the subtle nuances such as fingers sliding across guitar strings and squeaking floorboards etc. are all audible now. The RPA is truly a revealing amplifier.
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a2058
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Post by a2058 on Feb 23, 2009 19:55:09 GMT -5
Ok, Outlaw 2200 is powering the right channel, RPA-2 powering the left channel. The right hand side sound stage is seriously diminished, and it's not as tight as RPA!
Needless to say, I reached my conclusion even before the song was finished. Switched back to RPA for both channels... balance was restored... immediately. I am returning this 2200 amp tomorrow and save up for another RPA-2.
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Animo
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Post by Animo on Feb 23, 2009 23:33:46 GMT -5
If no break-in is required at all, then what that review translates to is that the reviewer thought 2~3 weeks of playing was required to "get used to" the RPA sound. So if no break-in is required, is the class H RPA sound that different to the reviewer to get used to? I really doubt that. I have my CD player on a continuous loop and am not in the room at all when this is going on. Now after about 3 days of this, it feels like it sounds a bit softer than right off the truck. May be my ears are deteriorating at an alarming rate This point goes to prove that maybe you were adjusting to the sound of the amp, and it didn't need breaking in. It seems that psychologically, you wanted the sound to improve, and therefore, it seemed to do so in your case, especially since your next post states that the speakers were wired incorrectly. I think there is a big difference in the concept of breaking in a solid state amp, as compared to it warming up, after being in a cold truck for a few days. A doh!! moment... (Homer Simpson would have been proud). So I was going to move the RPA-2 into my rack now and was fussing with the connections and found out I had completely f^%ked up the speaker wire connections! I had bi-amped before so I separated all the HF/LF lines to the front L/R. I use stackable banana plugs, so I thought I connected the HF line on top of the LF line for both speakers. Sure I did... but, positive and negatives were switched! So, it looks as though the HF elements were driven in a reverse polaity configuration. No wonder it sounded harsh and did not blend. Now all's corrected CORRECTLY and back to listening. This totally mellowed out the HF/LF mixing issues and am very satisfied, still -2.0dB off the treble but otherwise it is crazy good. I confidently vote "yes" and this is a "keeper". Getting too old to see that red wire and red wire go together. After reading the first couple of posts, I was going to recommend rechecking the speaker wire hook ups. When I built my speakers, we had accidently cross phased one of the crossover set ups, and got that same type of solid wall type sound eminating from everywhere. Once rewired the soundstage, detail, and clarity opened right up. I'm glad you were able to find the problem on your own and are enjoying your new upgrade. |
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a2058
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Post by a2058 on Mar 9, 2009 21:19:54 GMT -5
A second RPA-2 for my center channel should arrive tomorrow!! YAY!!
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a2058
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Post by a2058 on Mar 11, 2009 18:55:51 GMT -5
After a bit of interesting cable jiggling inside the amp to undo the damage done by FedEx during transit (rough handling, cables got loose inside), I managed to hook up the second RPA to my center channel. Now the front three are powered by RPA-2s.
Immediately, I noticed how seamless going from the 2 channel bypass to DTS Neo6 surround sounded. With the addition of center channel driven by RPA, it felt as though the front center sound stage is now extending behind the center speaker by about 3~4 meters easily. Timbre of the front sound stage match very well obviously and it is much much more crisp. Sound has now sparkle to them that was not as obvious coming from the center channel driven by LPA amp. I am also noticing how much other spurious noise that is recorded on the tracks, like finger/string/plucking/floorboard creaking/singers salivating etc. that are now very obviously reproduced.
You know when you are in a nice audio show room with very high end gear that you could only dream of owning one day in another universe and go like, " gee that sounds amazing and I want this only if I could..." Well, this is that sound for me, at much much much less money.
THANK YOU EMOTIVA, this is completely blowing my mind.
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RPA-1 man
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Post by RPA-1 man on Mar 11, 2009 19:04:44 GMT -5
Too bad there are no more new RPA's to be had. You could have a complete RPA surround system. Holy Crap!! That would be unbelievable. EmoBlue can vouch for that.
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a2058
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Post by a2058 on Mar 11, 2009 20:26:04 GMT -5
I know, I know... 2 more RPAs... Tough order to fill. Though, judging from the contribution surrounds give in terms of actual SPL output difference, I am inclined to say that this is not as significant as getting the front sound stage taken care of. Then again, there are options including MPS... which I am sure will go the way of RPA very soon. I would say, if I can somehow score another RPA-2 for SR/SL, then it is truly golden.
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