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Post by memotiva on Oct 14, 2014 18:43:27 GMT -5
Life isn't always subjective. That's why you have double blind tests you can create environments void of subjectivity. That's their entire purpose.
The double blind tests that have been done on things like fancy HDMI/speaker cables and amps operating in their designed operating parameters have shown that these things are snake oil. There's plenty published about it online. Of course, you won't see manufacturers pointing this out as they don't want to jeopardize their sales.
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Post by redog on Oct 14, 2014 18:49:10 GMT -5
You can't see inside my skull. Everything in my world happens inside of my skull, not yours.
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Post by brand on Oct 14, 2014 18:58:59 GMT -5
Life isn't always subjective. That's why you have double blind tests you can create environments void of subjectivity. That's their entire purpose. The double blind tests that have been done on things like fancy HDMI/speaker cables and amps operating in their designed operating parameters have shown that these things are snake oil. There's plenty published about it online. Of course, you won't see manufacturers pointing this out as they don't want to jeopardize their sales. You're saying there is no sonic difference between an entry level Denon and a XPR is that correct (level matched ofc)? I'm not saying there is I'm just trying to understand what you're saying. That's where the snake oil part comes into play for you? What about simple specs/power then? If I want to listen to music at 100db+ levels for 2-3 hours? A Denon is not going to cut it in certain speaker/amp combos. Does that fall under snake oil for you? I'm not being sarcastic!
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Post by memotiva on Oct 14, 2014 19:02:46 GMT -5
"You can't see inside my skull. Everything in my world happens inside of my skull, not yours."
With objective tests, you don't have to see inside of anyone's head. It's the beauty of double blind testing. It's how drug companies figure out of drugs actually work vs just a placebo effect.
For Brand, within the operating parameters of the lower amp, the double blind studies that have been done on the subject say that the two of them sound the same.
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Post by knucklehead on Oct 14, 2014 19:08:13 GMT -5
In fact the amps may or may not sound the same but participants in a DBX test cannot consistently pick out one amp over any other amp when each of the amps are operating within their operating parameters. I like this 'test' - a blind but not double blind test. And FWIW you cannot 'hear' headroom! Which is what high powered amps are selling.
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Post by Porscheguy on Oct 14, 2014 19:12:10 GMT -5
I just love these threads.. As usual they go nowhere because there is no real right answer...
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Post by pedrocols on Oct 14, 2014 19:13:40 GMT -5
"You can't see inside my skull. Everything in my world happens inside of my skull, not yours." With objective tests, you don't have to see inside of anyone's head. It's the beauty of double blind testing. It's how drug companies figure out of drugs actually work vs just a placebo effect. For Brand, within the operating parameters of the lower amp, the double blind studies that have been done on the subject say that the two of them sound the same. I am not debating the blind test. However, I think the accuracy of the test will only have value if they perform the test with every single speaker that is out there. In addition, the test should be evaluated for validity meaning if it measure what it says it measures and reliability, meaning if it consistently provides the same results. Lastly, amp manufactures anticipate that customers will potentially abuse their products.
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Post by memotiva on Oct 14, 2014 19:14:24 GMT -5
"And FWIW you cannot 'hear' headroom! Which is what high powered amps are selling."
It's what they may be sometimes selling though not in every case. The answer to the OP's question again is whatever the cheapest amp you can get that fits your power requirements since within those power requirements, they all sound the same.
"Lastly, amp manufactures anticipate that customers will potentially abuse their products."
They have no problem offering up products for testing. What they fear is that someone like Consumer Reports will one day step in and put an end to a lot of this foolishness. Once upon a time people were spending hundreds of dollars on speaker wire, HDMI cables, power cables, etc, but then people figured it out. People are slowly figuring out the same about subjects like the topic at hand, balanced cables, etc.
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Post by ansat on Oct 14, 2014 19:27:39 GMT -5
Hi, I currently own an XPR2 amp with the XDA2 DAC and B&W Nautilus 803 speakers. I play flac files with JRiver. I want to begin experimenting with active crossovers and possibly change speakers. One speaker I may build and try is the LX521 (Linkwitzlab.com). My plan is to purchase 4 more channels (minimum) of amplifier power and possibly the miniDSP 4x10. If I use the XPR for the low end then I could go with two 2-channel amps or one 5/7 channel amp. After reading some of the posts I'm not sure what the benefit of my XPR is. With sound quality in mind, any recommendations on what to purchase? Here is what I am considering but maybe the best choice is something else: XPR-5 XPA-5 XPA-7 This is for my audio system only. I plan to eliminate the crossovers in the speakers and use miniDSP (or something better?) with REW room correction. Thank you. Kaijorg, Looking at the lx521 a 60 watt per channel amp is what is recommended. Which would allow the use of any amp made by emotiva. However, when it was on demo at rmaf 2013 2 xpa-5's were used. I didn't see any notes to indicate if they were run as 4 way or 3 way. Tony
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Post by brand on Oct 14, 2014 19:42:27 GMT -5
For Brand, within the operating parameters of the lower amp, the double blind studies that have been done on the subject say that the two of them sound the same. Well they might sound the same sonically (I really don't care, I was ok with my Denon sonically as I am with my Emotiva gear) but I can't push my speakers to the same extent as with my Emotiva. Largely because Denons 200W are not actually 200W but less. The Denon simply can't keep up at some point and that's what I'm paying for. No snake oil there.
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Post by monkumonku on Oct 14, 2014 20:24:33 GMT -5
I just love these threads.. As usual they go nowhere because there is no real right answer... Excuse me, but you are mistaken. Just ask the dozens of people who will tell you that they do indeed have the right answer!!!
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hemster
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Post by hemster on Oct 14, 2014 20:27:53 GMT -5
A blind test is useless as by design it's biased. Double blind tests give actual results. For amps operating inside of their specific operation parameters, there's no difference in them. It's like fancy speaker cables or those pills you see on TV late at night that will magically make you John Holmes. They don't work, but people buy in to it anyways. John Holmes? That's so 80's. My pills make me look like Mandingo and that's only on half dosage! Horses stop me on the streets to ask my secret.
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novisnick
EmoPhile
CEO Secret Monoblock Society
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Post by novisnick on Oct 14, 2014 20:43:49 GMT -5
A blind test is useless as by design it's biased. Double blind tests give actual results. For amps operating inside of their specific operation parameters, there's no difference in them. It's like fancy speaker cables or those pills you see on TV late at night that will magically make you John Holmes. They don't work, but people buy in to it anyways. John Holmes? That's so 80's. My pills make me look like Mandingo and that's only on half dosage! Horses stop me on the streets to ask my secret. I'm sure that the horse blushed first,,,,,he,,,,he,,,,,,
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hemster
Global Moderator
Particle Manufacturer
...still listening... still watching
Posts: 51,920
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Post by hemster on Oct 14, 2014 20:46:31 GMT -5
John Holmes? That's so 80's. My pills make me look like Mandingo and that's only on half dosage! Horses stop me on the streets to ask my secret. I'm sure that the horse blushed first,,,,,he,,,,he,,,,,, Yep, all the fillies do.
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Post by deltadube on Oct 14, 2014 21:28:51 GMT -5
A blind test is useless as by design it's biased. Double blind tests give actual results. For amps operating inside of their specific operation parameters, there's no difference in them. It's like fancy speaker cables or those pills you see on TV late at night that will magically make you John Holmes. They don't work, but people buy in to it anyways. John Holmes? That's so 80's. My pills make me look like Mandingo and that's only on half dosage! Horses stop me on the streets to ask my secret. what kind of pills you got bro?
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hemster
Global Moderator
Particle Manufacturer
...still listening... still watching
Posts: 51,920
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Post by hemster on Oct 14, 2014 21:56:02 GMT -5
John Holmes? That's so 80's. My pills make me look like Mandingo and that's only on half dosage! Horses stop me on the streets to ask my secret. what kind of pills you got bro? Big old horse pills!
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Post by Porscheguy on Oct 15, 2014 15:40:16 GMT -5
I just love these threads.. As usual they go nowhere because there is no real right answer... Excuse me, but you are mistaken. Just ask the dozens of people who will tell you that they do indeed have the right answer!!! They do indeed have the right answer except those answers are all different.
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Post by monkumonku on Oct 15, 2014 15:43:08 GMT -5
Excuse me, but you are mistaken. Just ask the dozens of people who will tell you that they do indeed have the right answer!!! They do indeed have the right answer except those answers are all different. That's because the others are wrong.
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Post by kaijorg on Oct 15, 2014 20:09:28 GMT -5
Thank you to everyone. I will continue to check the forum for additional posts. My next step will be to speak with Mr. Linkwitz and get his take on the miniDSP vs other options. It sounds like 2-XPA3's or the XPA-7 might be the ticket if I go with the Linkwitz LX521. I will need 6 or 8 separate channels.
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Post by memotiva on Oct 16, 2014 11:02:47 GMT -5
"That's because the others are wrong."
The correct answer is the one that can be proven. We're not talking about religion here. Plenty of people spend their money on AV based purely on emotion and subjectivity. Show them some real tests and their emotions won't allow them to accept that they've made stupid purchases. Therein lies the problem.
There's a reason why governments force people like drug manufacturers to actually prove that things work. You get plenty of people who swear that their placebo works wonders. The AV industry takes advantage. Things like amps inside their operating parameters, fancy cables, power conditioners, etc, show no difference in double blind tests. The few tests that have been done on speakers show that people's preference isn't represented by the most expensive speaker.
There are ways to test and actually find truth.
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