|
Post by pedrocols on Oct 16, 2014 11:10:24 GMT -5
"That's because the others are wrong." The correct answer is the one that can be proven. We're not talking about religion here. Plenty of people spend their money on AV based purely on emotion and subjectivity. Show them some real tests and their emotions won't allow them to accept that they've made stupid purchases. Therein lies the problem. There's a reason why governments force people like drug manufacturers to actually prove that things work. You get plenty of people who swear that their placebo works wonders. The AV industry takes advantage. Things like amps inside their operating parameters, fancy cables, power conditioners, etc, show no difference in double blind tests. The few tests that have been done on speakers show that people's preference isn't represented by the most expensive speaker. There are ways to test and actually find truth. You forgot to mention the deadly side effects of the proven drugs that worked.
|
|
|
Post by memotiva on Oct 16, 2014 11:13:08 GMT -5
The side effects are pretty clear and that's part of the reason of why clinical trials are required. The possible side effects, if you haven't seen an ad lately, are available to the general public and have always been available to your doctor. Some drugs have a risk of things even as serious as death, but if the condition you have will kill you then a doctor might say that they're an option for you.
A little more extreme than AV where the biggest potential problem is that you'll spend a lot of money for 0 benefit.
|
|
|
Post by pedrocols on Oct 16, 2014 11:20:13 GMT -5
The side effects are pretty clear and that's part of the reason of why clinical trials are required. The possible side effects, if you haven't seen an ad lately, are available to the general public and have always been available to your doctor. Some drugs have a risk of things even as serious as death, but if the condition you have will kill you then a doctor might say that they're an option for you. A little more extreme than AV where the biggest potential problem is that you'll spend a lot of money for 0 benefit. My point is that there are always going to be compromises. In addition, drugs affect individuals differently as well as we all hear things different. Audio tests can prove a lot if things but they cannot precisely tell how you or myself hear what we hear and how we do.
|
|
|
Post by monkumonku on Oct 16, 2014 11:39:01 GMT -5
The side effects are pretty clear and that's part of the reason of why clinical trials are required. The possible side effects, if you haven't seen an ad lately, are available to the general public and have always been available to your doctor. Some drugs have a risk of things even as serious as death, but if the condition you have will kill you then a doctor might say that they're an option for you. A little more extreme than AV where the biggest potential problem is that you'll spend a lot of money for 0 benefit. I am one of those who don't seem to hear any difference among various amplifiers when operated within their intended parameters. That said, I don't rule out the possibility that others out there can hear differences. Even if there are "scientifically" no discernable audible differences between amps, there are other factors that enter into why people choose one amp over another. It could be appearance, build quality, reputation, status, price, whatever, but the actual sound of an amp is just one of many factors. I'd say the biggest factor in buying an amp or any other gear is whether it will let you sleep peacefully. In that respect, having peace with your audio gear often has nothing at all to do with what it sounds like. It's not like drugs in which the drug itself actually makes a person feel better or worse. For tons of "audiophiles" they can buy gear that sounds great but if they think there is something else out there that will sound better, then they are not going to feel good until they go after that greener grass. And no quoting of scientific studies or trying to talk "sense" to them is going to change their mind because it's not about the absolutes of the sound quality itself, it's all about the psychology. When you say in "...AV that the biggest potential problem is that you'll spend a lot of money for 0 benefit," the word "benefit" has different meanings to different people. You also wrote earlier, The correct answer is the one that can be proven. We're not talking about religion here. Plenty of people spend their money on AV based purely on emotion and subjectivity. Show them some real tests and their emotions won't allow them to accept that they've made stupid purchases. Therein lies the problem.
"Stupid purchases" is subjective. Also, you bring up test results and that will start some nice arguments about flaws in the methodology, etc., so I'd say it's nice to make recommendations when people ask, but like beauty, happiness is in the eye of the beholder.
|
|
|
Post by Bonzo on Oct 16, 2014 11:59:05 GMT -5
"That's because the others are wrong."......The correct answer is the one that can be proven.... Plenty of people spend their money on AV based purely on emotion and subjectivity. Show them some real tests and their emotions won't allow them to accept that they've made stupid purchases.....There are ways to test and actually find truth. So then how does someone select the best speakers? By looking at frequency charts? No thanks. . On this one I can tell you that you are flat out wrong. My system without my Belkin PF60 is overly brash and harsh. It's not a little difference, it's a big difference. Come on over and I'll give you one of your double blind tests. I'll prove to you the Belkin PF60 in my system makes a huge difference. If you have ears you'll hear it. Note: Thread officially hi-jacked for no good reason by memotiva.
|
|
|
Post by chaosrv on Oct 16, 2014 12:03:15 GMT -5
There are some out there that do, in fact, treat audio (and other hobbies) as a sort of religion. "Proving" things does not actually prove anything. People believe what they want to believe despite whatever facts might be presented.
Maybe we should just talk about if Apple/Mac OS or a Windows based PC is better*. Or maybe butter on the top of the bread vs butter on the bottom of the bread?
(*yes, I know Linux exists as well but that isn't the point)
|
|
|
Post by chaosrv on Oct 16, 2014 12:07:47 GMT -5
"That's because the others are wrong."......The correct answer is the one that can be proven.... Plenty of people spend their money on AV based purely on emotion and subjectivity. Show them some real tests and their emotions won't allow them to accept that they've made stupid purchases.....There are ways to test and actually find truth. So then how does someone select the best speakers? By looking at frequency charts? No thanks. . On this one I can tell you that you are flat out wrong. My system without my Belkin PF60 is overly brash and harsh. It's not a little difference, it's a big difference. Come on over and I'll give you one of your double blind tests. I'll prove to you the Belkin PF60 in my system makes a huge difference. If you have ears you'll hear it. Note: Thread officially hi-jacked for no good reason by memotiva. I haven't commented on amp specs/design but I will agree with Bonzo on this piece. I live in an older apartment building with 80+ units. Some of the wiring has been updated, some has not. There is definitely an audible difference with my PF-60 conditioners as well. Now, if the same conditioner was used in a sterile environment, with its own dedicated power supply with zero interference from anything else then I sincerely doubt the PF-60, or any power conditioner, would make much of a difference, if any. The example was extreme and I'm sure there are plenty of instances in which it would not enhance the system. But it does in mine.
|
|
|
Post by monkumonku on Oct 16, 2014 12:14:16 GMT -5
There are some out there that do, in fact, treat audio (and other hobbies) as a sort of religion. "Proving" things does not actually prove anything. People believe what they want to believe despite whatever facts might be presented. Maybe we should just talk about if Apple/Mac OS or a Windows based PC is better*. Or maybe butter on the top of the bread vs butter on the bottom of the bread? (*yes, I know Linux exists as well but that isn't the point) Don't forget toilet paper rolls - roll from the top (that's the right way) or roll from underneath.
|
|
|
Post by Bonzo on Oct 16, 2014 12:20:38 GMT -5
Don't forget toilet paper rolls - roll from the top (that's the right way) Damned straight it is!!!! All those "under" people bug the crap out me.
|
|
|
Post by chaosrv on Oct 16, 2014 12:49:32 GMT -5
Don't forget toilet paper rolls - roll from the top (that's the right way) Damned straight it is!!!! All those "under" people bug the crap out me. Try living with a cat and then tell me which is the right way.
|
|
|
Post by Bonzo on Oct 16, 2014 12:59:36 GMT -5
Damned straight it is!!!! All those "under" people bug the crap out me. Try living with a cat and then tell me which is the right way. I have 2 cats actually. 3 if you count the wife. Well, she might be a dog though. You know, a *bleep*!!! "OVER" is the right way in my house, in my 3 rooms, with my waste system, my hands, and my *bleep*. Whoa, can you tell I've been spending WAY too much time on a Hometheater system forum?
|
|
|
Post by Cogito on Oct 16, 2014 13:53:39 GMT -5
I'm also a big fan of blind testing. It certainly has a way of flushing out a lot of the BS marketing claims (i.e Tice clocks, green markers, etc.).
|
|
|
Post by bitsandbytes on Oct 16, 2014 17:54:23 GMT -5
Life isn't always subjective. That's why you have double blind tests you can create environments void of subjectivity. That's their entire purpose. The double blind tests that have been done on things like fancy HDMI/speaker cables and amps operating in their designed operating parameters have shown that these things are snake oil. There's plenty published about it online. Of course, you won't see manufacturers pointing this out as they don't want to jeopardize their sales. If all of Emotiva's amps sounded the same, then with that 30 day no questions asked money back guarantee, Emotiva would have quickly gone out of business. Think about it... If some of these double blind testers used the same methodology as the drug companies, I would say "right on" with these tests. A control group is needed which will hear the same amp - a placebo group. Without this control group, the statistics are rendered meaningless. The question should be not "which amp is which", but is the sound different or not. For example, Group A hears the different amps. Say out of 25 people, you have 15 people who hear a difference and 10 who say they do not. Now if you have 25 people in the control group who heard the same amps and maybe 5 believe they heard a difference and 20 did not, the chances using Fisher's 2X2 Exact Test that this result is random is 86 out of 10,000. If sufficient controls are in place, one can safely conclude there is an audible difference in sound. I have no idea how such a test would score with amplifiers. It may prove to be random (showing no difference) or inconclusive. Am only showing how such a test may be done with a placebo, which drug companies use. Great for utilizing a small sample size. Some amps will have more of an impact with some speakers than with others. If you listen at low levels, say 65-70 decibels, the sound difference will be much smaller between various amps, if heard at all. How loud is this? My refrigerator at a foot from the base puts out 62 decibels lol. Memotiva, a lot of forum members put in a lot of effort in terms of saving up and spending money, asking lots of questions, trialing different products, and plenty of research to obtain the excellent systems they have now. We don't need to be "saved". There is no mass delusion going on here. Maybe you won't hear a difference if you compared amps. Not everyone does. Suggest you listen, experiment and be receptive to different products and not allow these these naysayers to limit your listening experience. Too many of this class of people, in my opinion, are cheap and get off on demeaning others. Happy listening, Walt
|
|
|
Post by redog on Oct 16, 2014 18:29:49 GMT -5
You say to me that one basket of fruit plus one basket of fruit is two baskets of fruit. I say no it's not, it's a couple of bundles. You say no, bundles don't include baskets. I say, baskets can't be counted when your talking fruit.
|
|
|
Post by sct on Oct 16, 2014 18:40:58 GMT -5
While I would say that there are not HUGE differences between amps, there are audible differences. My experience has shown that high-current amps produce a more "authoritative" or "ballsier" sound. I came to this conclusion after working at a hi-end hi-fi store back in the day. And I found that the Yamaha receivers had a "sharper", more "etched" sound whereas the H/K and Tandberg receivers had a more "robust", "fuller" sound, especially in the lower octaves. The NAD amps also exhibited this quality. Now some folks liked the Yamaha sound and others preferred the Tandberg, etc. sound. Good for them.
I think that Memotiva goes a bit overboard in his characterizations and would benefit from toning it down a bit, persuasion almost always works better than confrontation. But I also agree with him in that I find that this "hobby" is particularly susceptible to imagined improvements in sound quality from the silliest of "tweaks". There are folks out there who will swear up and down that dramatic improvements in sound quality can be realized by placing bowls of chilled (NOT warm!) water in front of your speakers. Or that you can noticeably improve the sound quality of your system by taking a picture of it, writing "System = good!" on the photo, and then placing that photo in your freezer. I kid you not.
In the end, there are several things that I think ALL of us can agree with: 1) Speakers, their placement, and their interaction with the room, make the biggest difference in the sound quality. After that, 2) The source material makes a huge difference in the sound quality - and great source material will make *any* system sound better.
And after that you get down to 3) Amps, preamps, source devices and such which can make noticeable, but not huge differences. And, finally, you have 4) Cables and various other system tweaks that can help *marginally* improve a system. And far too many folks spend an inordinate amount of time and money stressing over number 4 when their time and money would be far better spent taking care of numbers 1, 2, and 3 - especially numbers 1 and 2...
SCT
|
|
hemster
Global Moderator
Particle Manufacturer
...still listening... still watching
Posts: 51,916
|
Post by hemster on Oct 16, 2014 19:00:02 GMT -5
You say to me that one basket of fruit plus one basket of fruit is two baskets of fruit. I say no it's not, it's a couple of bundles. You say no, bundles don't include baskets. I say, baskets can't be counted when your talking fruit. And I say that as long as you're getting 5 portions a day, it doesn't matter if they come from baskets or bundles.
|
|
|
Post by thepcguy on Oct 16, 2014 19:09:41 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by memotiva on Oct 17, 2014 22:47:02 GMT -5
Life isn't always subjective. That's why you have double blind tests you can create environments void of subjectivity. That's their entire purpose. The double blind tests that have been done on things like fancy HDMI/speaker cables and amps operating in their designed operating parameters have shown that these things are snake oil. There's plenty published about it online. Of course, you won't see manufacturers pointing this out as they don't want to jeopardize their sales. If all of Emotiva's amps sounded the same, then with that 30 day no questions asked money back guarantee, Emotiva would have quickly gone out of business. Think about it... ......... Memotiva, a lot of forum members put in a lot of effort in terms of saving up and spending money, asking lots of questions, trialing different products, and plenty of research to obtain the excellent systems they have now. We don't need to be "saved". There is no mass delusion going on here. Maybe you won't hear a difference if you compared amps. Not everyone does. Suggest you listen, experiment and be receptive to different products and not allow these these naysayers to limit your listening experience. Too many of this class of people, in my opinion, are cheap and get off on demeaning others. Happy listening, Walt No, Emotiva wouldn't be flushed with returns as people don't know better. Someone who bought an XPA when a UPA was sufficient or conversely a McIntosh when an UPA would be sufficient wouldn't know the difference since both devices would be operating in their parameters and would thus sound fine and exactly the same as all other amps. That nice people waste money on things that make 0 difference is EXACTLY why I point this out to people. Encouraging people to waste their money isn't being a good class of person by the way. It's just as bad as someone trying to sell you a $100 HDMI cable. It's snake oil. The whole AV industry is just lucky that Consumer Reports hasn't bothered to reset their business model yet. I'm sorry that all of this makes you emotionally uncomfortable. That you find facts demeaning really is your own issue to deal with. There's nothing I can do about it. I'm writing this on a $3,000 laptop so I sort of doubt that my motivations are to be cheap.
|
|
|
Post by broncsrule21 on Oct 17, 2014 23:20:39 GMT -5
$3000 dollar laptops are snake oil.
|
|
|
Post by yeeeha17 on Oct 17, 2014 23:28:16 GMT -5
Especially Alienware laptops
|
|