novisnick
EmoPhile
CEO Secret Monoblock Society
Posts: 27,213
|
Post by novisnick on Oct 17, 2014 23:45:18 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by frenchyfranky on Oct 18, 2014 2:07:27 GMT -5
I think memotiva holds the absolute truth about the universe knowledge. We are only a bunch of miserable and idiot who hearing some psychoacoustic and placebo stupid effects. What are we waiting to put in garbage all the expensive audio devices we have buyed and replace it with cheap and minimal ones to fit our needs. Thank you memotiva to replace us on the good way of the responsible and intelligent audiophile...! I feel so stupid when I read you! Hey! Wait a minute you try to scrap all the decades of experience in audiophile I had, you try to tell me what I should hear and what I shouldn't, you try to convince me that we are living an industrial and commercial conspiracy...! OK I now understand, my only mistake is that I stupidly grabbed your fishhook. Sorry but I will not debate with you anymore because we couldn't be okay together, and for this reason I will also avoid to read you. I know, I know, I will stay a very stupid people without all your valuable knowledge, but I take the risk, after all my stupid overkill sound system sounds so good at my placebo ears. OK it's enough venoms here, bye bye!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2014 7:56:14 GMT -5
There's a definite point of diminishing returns, where more money spent does not equate to better quality concerning electronics, and that point is probably lower than some would think. That's where I think Emotiva products fit in nicely - you can achieve good quality without overspending.
|
|
|
Post by sct on Oct 18, 2014 9:13:22 GMT -5
Oh yeah, the point of diminishing returns kicks in pretty early in the audio world. If you do your homework and buy wisely, you can put together a *killer* 5.1 system for $10k or less. And spending 3-4x that much will only get you an additional 10% or less. This is one hobby that rewards a careful and intelligent shopper...
SCT
|
|
|
Post by ocezam on Oct 18, 2014 11:31:17 GMT -5
FWIW you cannot 'hear' headroom! You hear it when you run out of it... Peace
|
|
|
Post by pedrocols on Oct 18, 2014 11:57:07 GMT -5
So how loud you guys listen to music on average in a two channel setup?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2014 12:18:46 GMT -5
My speakers really don't open up until you put a bit of power to them. At low levels they sound thin. That being said I prefer about 80db and things are sounding nice to me. I have a 2.0 system.
|
|
|
Post by knucklehead on Oct 18, 2014 13:30:49 GMT -5
FWIW you cannot 'hear' headroom! You hear it when you run out of it... Peace That would be distortion you're hearing and not headroom. And FWIW replacing a competent amp that produces 250wpc with one that has 500wpc gives you 'headroom' of only 3db. IOW not much.
|
|
|
Post by Gary Cook on Oct 18, 2014 15:08:58 GMT -5
The premise of this debate centres around the claim that; All amps sound the same when operating in their published specifications I dispute that. An example, using the same speakers, a 100 watt Class A transformer coupled tube amp running at 40 watts compared to a 100 watt Class AB solid state amp running at 40 watts will sound very different. Not only can I hear it I can see it on an oscilloscope. So my view is the premise is disproven with one simple example. Can we move on now, or do we need more examples? Cheers Gary
|
|
|
Post by Gary Cook on Oct 18, 2014 15:23:17 GMT -5
While I'm on a roll, another claim; At my parent's house their next door neighbour was an amateur welder, he'd design and make ornate balustrades, railings etc. He ran mig and tig welders regularly. With 0.5 metre RCA interconnects the interference was intolerable but a swap to XLR's eliminated the EMI completely. In a professional environment that's why we used XLR connections, can't have a performance interrupted while someone nearby welds up their gates.
Another claim debunked.
Cheers Gary
|
|
|
Post by memotiva on Oct 18, 2014 20:00:08 GMT -5
Actually, if you read through my posts here, you'll find that I mention highly unusual electronic interference as one of the two reasons why you might need XLR. The number of people on this board who have XLR inputs to whom that applies is so infinitesimal that it's barely worth mentioning.
What you didn't note, in your post, is that unless the condition in quote or the one you mentioned applies then spending extra money for XLR inputs is snake oil.
Thank you so very much for proving my point.
The one rule I've found when having an intellectual conversation is that at some point when someone can't justify their own opinion that they'll run off in a tizzy saying that they won't talk to the person again. I love to see it. It an admission that they can't prove their point. As for your participation in this thread, unless you're using multiple user names, I don't see you posting in here at all.
Snake oil doesn't sound bad to your ears, it just doesn't sound better and is a waste of money.
|
|
|
Post by brand on Oct 18, 2014 21:56:18 GMT -5
How is this "an intellectual conversation"? This is barely a conversation and there is nothing intellectual about it. You've been (ab)using the term snake oil so much it seems like you're on a personal crusade against anything that you consider snake oil and when people finally get fed up with the way (not what) you're communicating you consider that proof that you're right since they're not interested in having the oldest discussion ever with somebody who has it all figured out anyway. You're not conversating you're reposting facts that you found somewhere online. On top of that you're taking a completely statistical and analytical approach to something that just isn't completely so. I'v said it before even if my Denon actually had the same wattage as my XPA and sounded excatly the same (which it might and I'm aware and ok with that) I would still buy Emotiva. I like the company better, I like their look better, there are less pointless features in their products, the materials used are higher quality and they are more reliable. No snake oil there. Edit: Oh and they're cheaper too
|
|
|
Post by memotiva on Oct 18, 2014 22:26:46 GMT -5
"On top of that you're taking a completely statistical and analytical approach to something that just isn't completely so."
Yes, is it completely so. When you take people and have them listen to things like different amps, XLR cables, etc, and the outcome is basically 50/50 then it is completely so. It's hard for people to face if they're spent a lot of money on that type of thing.
Your points on Emotiva are correct. I didn't say that there was any snake oil in choosing Emotiva. Just in getting an XPA over a UPA for the sake of having balanced inputs or in thinking that the XPA is going to outperform the UPA inside of the UPA's operating envelope, which it won't.
|
|
|
Post by foggy1956 on Oct 18, 2014 22:29:28 GMT -5
Actually, if you read through my posts here, you'll find that I mention highly unusual electronic interference as one of the two reasons why you might need XLR. The number of people on this board who have XLR inputs to whom that applies is so infinitesimal that it's barely worth mentioning. What you didn't note, in your post, is that unless the condition in quote or the one you mentioned applies then spending extra money for XLR inputs is snake oil. Thank you so very much for proving my point. The one rule I've found when having an intellectual conversation is that at some point when someone can't justify their own opinion that they'll run off in a tizzy saying that they won't talk to the person again. I love to see it. It an admission that they can't prove their point. As for your participation in this thread, unless you're using multiple user names, I don't see you posting in here at all. Snake oil doesn't sound bad to your ears, it just doesn't sound better and is a waste of money. I bet you have a lot of experience with people running off?
|
|
|
Post by yeeeha17 on Oct 18, 2014 22:34:27 GMT -5
Some just prefer a Lexus over a Toyota. Both cars get you from point A to point B but one car just cost more to maintain. I do agree that there are snake oils in audio but if people prefer to get the Lexus than let it be. It makes them feel better and hear better lol
|
|
|
Post by brand on Oct 18, 2014 22:51:47 GMT -5
"On top of that you're taking a completely statistical and analytical approach to something that just isn't completely so." Yes, is it completely so. When you take people and have them listen to things like different amps, XLR cables, etc, and the outcome is basically 50/50 then it is completely so. It's hard for people to face if they're spent a lot of money on that type of thing. Your points on Emotiva are correct. I didn't say that there was any snake oil in choosing Emotiva. Just in getting an XPA over a UPA for the sake of having balanced inputs or in thinking that the XPA is going to outperform the UPA inside of the UPA's operating envelope, which it won't. In most cases getting an XPA over a UPA means getting more power. I can't tell the difference between the two sonicall (which is why I don't make recommendations in refrence to how these amps sound in comparison). What I can tell is the difference when I push the UPA past its operating limits but I'm then still within the operating limits of the XPA. Again no snake oil there. I've had cases where going XLR over RCA helped eliminate interference so I get people going for the more robust of the two. I don't believe in different sounding RCA cables etc. Thats actually where the term snake oil originated. Out of curiousity do you think the same way about preamps? And whats your take on tube vs transitor amp, same thing?
|
|
|
Post by ocezam on Oct 18, 2014 22:59:49 GMT -5
You hear it when you run out of it... Peace That would be distortion you're hearing and not headroom. And FWIW replacing a competent amp that produces 250wpc with one that has 500wpc gives you 'headroom' of only 3db. IOW not much. No kidding? Jeez. Same Sh*t Different Day....
|
|
|
Post by Gary Cook on Oct 19, 2014 18:24:44 GMT -5
Actually, if you read through my posts here, you'll find that I mention highly unusual electronic interference as one of the two reasons why you might need XLR. The number of people on this board who have XLR inputs to whom that applies is so infinitesimal that it's barely worth mentioning. What you didn't note, in your post, is that unless the condition in quote or the one you mentioned applies then spending extra money for XLR inputs is snake oil. Thank you so very much for proving my point. There are so many problems here that I don't know where to start. Let's try this, a product can't legitimately be described as "snake oil" when it is in fact useful in many circumstances. Especially when the describer has no idea of the situation in which the product is going to be used. In this particular example you didn't know how long his interconnect run was nor were you aware of the interference potential at his premises. You bluntly told him that XLR's were "snake oil", hence that they never did anything, placebo effect only. Whereas the truth is that in the right circumstances XLR's are extremely useful, can turn an otherwise unlistenable system into something worthwhile. You didn't qualify it, you didn't quantify it, you quoted no exceptions, no explanations just the blanket "snake oil" branding. By doing so you could have quite easily turned someone away from the very product that they needed. That's about as bad a piece of advice as one can give. Using the "other posts" excuse is pretty lame, what's he supposed to do? Somehow magically know that you have posted contradictory information in other threads? Then find something that he doesn't even know exists? If you want people to refer to other information then you really should tell them. Or post a proper answer in the first place instead of something which is factually erroneous and grossly misleading. You also need to be aware of the calling "wolf" problem, if you incorrectly label legitimately worthwhile products as "snake oil" then no one will believe you when you really are talking about a "snake oil" product. Cheers Gary
|
|
|
Post by Gary Cook on Oct 19, 2014 18:32:35 GMT -5
While I'm on the subject of memotiva claims, I notice that he avoided this one The premise of this debate centres around the claim that; All amps sound the same when operating in their published specifications I dispute that. An example, using the same speakers, a 100 watt Class A transformer coupled tube amp running at 40 watts compared to a 100 watt Class AB solid state amp running at 40 watts will sound very different. Not only can I hear it I can see it on an oscilloscope. So my view is the premise is disproven with one simple example. Can we move on now, or do we need more examples? I guess he realised he was plainly wrong and moved on Cheers Gary
|
|
|
Post by memotiva on Oct 20, 2014 11:09:29 GMT -5
"On top of that you're taking a completely statistical and analytical approach to something that just isn't completely so." Yes, is it completely so. When you take people and have them listen to things like different amps, XLR cables, etc, and the outcome is basically 50/50 then it is completely so. It's hard for people to face if they're spent a lot of money on that type of thing. Your points on Emotiva are correct. I didn't say that there was any snake oil in choosing Emotiva. Just in getting an XPA over a UPA for the sake of having balanced inputs or in thinking that the XPA is going to outperform the UPA inside of the UPA's operating envelope, which it won't. In most cases getting an XPA over a UPA means getting more power. I can't tell the difference between the two sonicall (which is why I don't make recommendations in refrence to how these amps sound in comparison). What I can tell is the difference when I push the UPA past its operating limits but I'm then still within the operating limits of the XPA. Again no snake oil there. I've had cases where going XLR over RCA helped eliminate interference so I get people going for the more robust of the two. I don't believe in different sounding RCA cables etc. Thats actually where the term snake oil originated. Out of curiousity do you think the same way about preamps? And whats your take on tube vs transitor amp, same thing? Yet another person agreeing with me. Inside of the UPA's power envelope, the two, as you've said, sound the same. The only reason to get the XPA is if you actually need that power which many people don't. The only alternative is one of the two extremely unlikely cases where you'd need XLR cables. "Whereas the truth is that in the right circumstances XLR's are extremely useful" The right circumstances which represent a laughably small number of people. In the vast majority of cases, it's just people wasting their money. Hopefully some get to read this thread and learn to not waste their money.
|
|