Power needs for HT room

[fschris]

Hello Emotiva experts!

Maybe you can all help guide me or point me to some information.


My plan is to build a dedicated HT. The house will be custom so I would like to set up the HT with the proper electrical service.

I plan to deploy at the very least:

1 Projector
2x XPA2's
1x XPA5
2x Behringer ep4000s for sub duty...
1x umc 200 then maybe a upgrade.

and then some various computer eqpt etc...

Should I get dedicated 20 amp outlets? How many in front of room and rear. I think the amps will be in front of room and some processors in back of room with sub amps in back of room or front not sure just yet. Do the 20 amp lines mean I need to make sure the electrician uses 12 gauge romex?

I was looking to find out how many amps all this will draw when the action gets crazy. Do the dedicated 20 amp outlets mean I will need to wire in need plugs on the equipment. I think the layout is different than standard use plugs. I am sure I can get the rights plugs or build my own.

Any info is appreciated.


Chris

[bootman]

Two 20A circuits will work out fine.
The outlets will look like this:

[bootman]

...Also don't worry about wire gauge, yes the electrician will use 12/2 anyway for a 20A line.

As far as how much power everything will use?
Do you care about blowing a breaker or just power savings?

You won't blow the breaker under normal use.

120V x 20A = 2400W of electricity per circuit.

[deltadube]

Nov 21, 2014 21:09:21 GMT -5 bootman said:

Two 20A circuits will work out fine.
The outlets will look like this:

that's good for the xpr 1 mono blocks eh but ad in some 2 or 3 15 amp circuits as well..

for subs and tvs... ive read its good to have your subs on dedicated circuits..

cheers..

[Deleted]

Nov 21, 2014 21:01:42 GMT -5 fschris said:

Hello Emotiva experts!

Maybe you can all help guide me or point me to some information.


My plan is to build a dedicated HT. The house will be custom so I would like to set up the HT with the proper electrical service.

I plan to deploy at the very least:

1 Projector
2x XPA2's
1x XPA5
2x Behringer ep4000s for sub duty...
1x umc 200 then maybe a upgrade.

and then some various computer eqpt etc...

Should I get dedicated 20 amp outlets? How many in front of room and rear. I think the amps will be in front of room and some processors in back of room with sub amps in back of room or front not sure just yet. Do the 20 amp lines mean I need to make sure the electrician uses 12 gauge romex?

I was looking to find out how many amps all this will draw when the action gets crazy. Do the dedicated 20 amp outlets mean I will need to wire in need plugs on the equipment. I think the layout is different than standard use plugs. I am sure I can get the rights plugs or build my own.

Any info is appreciated.


Chris

I've had all my gear running on a single 15amp circuit along with an xpr-2 and a 1500 watt electric heater all going at the same time without issue.... I have since moved the heater to a different circuit but just as a reference. The two 20 amp circuits will be adequate.
On my power center I have never seen more than an 8amp draw during heavy load at reference levels even then it's only for a second or two, my usual draw is 4amps.

[creimes]

Two 20amp circuits will be plenty, I run all my gear on two 15amp circuits as I have no gear that needs a 20amp plug like the XPR amps for example, you would be fine with 15amp service but it's always nice to future proof with 20amp.

Chad

[novisnick]

My entire sig runs on two 15 amp circuits without worry.
If your having an electrician come and install some lines, then do it up. Run a couple of 20s and 15s. Best to do it and be done with it.
ENJOY!!!

[linvincible]

Since t'ils going to be custom, take the opportunité to make something future prof.
I ´d go with two 20 amp circuits dédicaces to FL and FR
Then a 15 amp circuit for all the other channels
Another 15 amp circuit for pre and sources
If you have a tv and computer it´s good practice to put them on their circuit too
And separate 15 amps for subs, and beamer

That should get you covered ;0)
Also plan as many outlets per circuit you will need, that will prevent the use of power strips
Can you integrate surge protection and filters to your electrical board?

[Priapulus]

Nov 22, 2014 4:15:27 GMT -5 linvincible said:

I ´d go with two 20 amp circuits dédicaces to FL and FR
Then a 15 amp circuit for all the other channels
Another 15 amp circuit for pre and sources
If you have a tv and computer it´s good practice to put them on their circuit too
And separate 15 amps for subs, and beamer

What's that, about 100 amps total for a HT? A little silly...

I have two 20 amp outlets (with two feed cables, two breakers, 40 amps total) for everything, and that's probably twice what I need! The grounds of those two outlets are bonded together by a short, heavy wire, right at the outlets. My two-channel power amp plugs into one outlet, my five-channel power amp plugs into the other (power amps don't like surge protectors). Two Panamax surge/powerbars plug into the other two plugs on the outlets; so that everything plugs into the Panamaxs, except the power amps.

Consider a "whole house" surge protector on the entrance service panel. For $100 it adds another layer of protection for your expensive gear.

 Of course, with a new build, it's relatively cheap to pull extra wire for future possibilities. Convenience outlets at remote locations, like projector or subs, are handy. Keeping everything on one circuit, keeps everything on the same electrical ground, which might mitigate ground loops. Keeping gear together in one spot reduces hum, noise pickup in interconnects and ground-loops.

Sincerely

/b 

[Canuck_fr]

I agree with Priapulus, but would not deploy the same way.

1. No matter how many outlets you put in, Ask you electrician to put all your outlets for HT gear on the same phase (I beleive in the absolute phase theory).
2. Put 3 dedicatd 20 amp circuits to the area where all the gear (amps, pre-amps etc...) will be. Ask you electrician to put all your outlets for HT gear on the same phase (I beleive in the absolute phase theory).
3. Put a dedicated circuit for the projector / screen.
4. The other outlets in the theater should also be on their own circuit and on the same phase(think if you were too add shaking seats or other future devices).
5. for all speaker wiring put some in wall tubing so you may want to change and/or add wiring for future proofing
6. Put your theater lighting on a different circuit (doesn't have to be dedicated, just a different circuit than all the other mentioned).

[405x5]

Nov 22, 2014 9:24:01 GMT -5 Canuck_fr said:

I agree with Priapulus, but would not deploy the same way.

1. No matter how many outlets you put in, Ask you electrician to put all your outlets for HT gear on the same phase (I beleive in the absolute phase theory).
2. Put 3 dedicatd 20 amp circuits to the area where all the gear (amps, pre-amps etc...) will be. Ask you electrician to put all your outlets for HT gear on the same phase (I beleive in the absolute phase theory).
3. Put a dedicated circuit for the projector / screen.
4. The other outlets in the theater should also be on their own circuit and on the same phase(think if you were too add shaking seats or other future devices).
5. for all speaker wiring put some in wall tubing so you may want to change and/or add wiring for future proofing
6. Put your theater lighting on a different circuit (doesn't have to be dedicated, just a different circuit than all the other mentioned).

"1. No matter how many outlets you put in, Ask you electrician to put all your outlets for HT gear on the same phase (I beleive in the absolute phase theory)."

Unless you have a commercial service (three phase) there is no choice of a particular phase the load can be tied into.

"2. Put 3 dedicatd 20 amp circuits to the area where all the gear (amps, pre-amps etc...) will be. Ask you electrician to put all your outlets for HT gear on the same phase (I beleive in the absolute phase theory). "

Again, the dedicated circuits are ok, but a dedicated line (with it's own neutral to the panel) would be good for the electronics like the processor, but unnecessary for anything else (no benefit).

and again, unless you live in a building with a commercial 3 phase service, what you are talking about does not exist in reality. Even an apartment with a commercial service would have you with a sub panel where there is no choice to the tenant, which phase your panel is powered from the basement.

"3. Put a dedicated circuit for the projector / screen."

That's ok.....

"5. for all speaker wiring put some in wall tubing so you may want to change and/or add wiring for future proofing"

Good Idea....

"6. Put your theater lighting on a different circuit (doesn't have to be dedicated, just a different circuit than all the other mentioned)."

General rule of thumb.....60 watt light bulb draws roughly half amp. You can put lighting/accessories  anywhere collectively the total load for the circuit is below 80 percent.

Bill Mina

[repeetavx]

Hi Chris,

Want vs. need moderated by cost.

I'm running:

1 Projector
2X XPA-2's
1X XPA-3
2X UPA-1's
1X XPA-100
3X Speaker internal sub amps
PT-7030
Cable STB
OPPO 93
Sherbourn Pre-1
Onkyo Turntable
HTPC
VCR
PS3

all off of one 15 amp circuit breaker. I listen to my movies loud enough that you have to shout if you want to talk to the person next to you. I have never popped the circuit breaker. The truth is that the amps pull such a small amount of their potential rating when in usual use. You would need to use a white noise generator and turn the preamp up to an un-standable level to push them to their rating.

When I redo my theater room and remove the 70's paneling and replace it with dry wall, I too will run another dedicated line or two. But so far, I've had no problem.

[westom]

Nov 22, 2014 8:29:28 GMT -5 Priapulus said:

My two-channel power amp plugs into one outlet, my five-channel power amp plugs into the other (power amps don't like surge protectors). Two Panamax surge/powerbars plug into the other two plugs on the outlets; so that everything plugs into the Panamaxs, except the power amps

Those Panamax protectors do not claim to protect hardware from typically destructive surges. Can sometimes make surge damage easier. And in rare cases create a house fire.

The entire setup needs nothing more than one circuit. More important are more 15 amp wall receptacles on that circuit. As others demonstrate by example, plenty of equipment operates without problems on one 15 amp circuit. One twenty amp circuit powering multiple 15 amp receptacles is more than sufficient.

Only effective hardware protection for that equipment will be one 'whole house' protector connected (and this is critical) to the other component that does the protection. In every case, a protector is only as effective as the other component that harmlessly absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules. Also have the electrician upgrade that single point earth ground. Otherwise the only protection is that routinely found inside every appliance.

That is your 'secondary' protection layer - essential to even protect Panamax protectors. Also inspect your 'primary' protection. A picture demonstrates what provides 'primary' protection:
www.tvtower.com/fpl.html

[Priapulus]

Panamax are not lightning arrestors, and don't claim to be. But I believe they are very effective at what they were designed for, when used as directed. I consider it foolish to not protect expensive gear this way. I've used them for 20 years now and never had equipment fail; I can't say the same for my non-protected friends.

I agree that whole house protection is a good idea; though it isn't a lightning arrestor either. Lightning protection comes from the neutral/ground/groundrod bonding at your utility box, and lightning arrestors on the power poles. Whole house protection simply cleans up noise coming in on the line; just as the Panamax cleans up local noise (various spikes from motor starting, powerline switching, distant lightning hits, neighbour's welding machine).

Sincerely,
/b

[bluemeanies]

I also have a dedicated room with everything listed in my signature. All receptacles are dedicated to the Home Theater having 8-15 amp receptacles. That's two receptacle boxes with 2 outlets in each. I also have the same setup for my 20amp service. All lights are on separate circuit breakers, likewise separate circuits for my subs.
Both XPA1's are connected to a 20 amp service however that is totally unnecessary. The Outlaw 7700 to a 15 amp circuit.

Some advice and this is MO. Make sure your current electrical panel and system is properly grounded. Lighting rod outside. Also in my dedicated theater I ran PVC tubing where I was running ALL of my cables for speakers and projector.
PVC is pretty reasonable in price.

[westom]

Nov 23, 2014 8:47:50 GMT -5 Priapulus said:

I agree that whole house protection is a good idea; though it isn't a lightning arrestor either. Lightning protection comes from the neutral/ground/groundrod bonding at your utility box, and lightning arrestors on the power poles. Whole house protection simply cleans up noise coming in on the line; just as the Panamax cleans up local noise

Panamax does little for noise. Yes, it has a number. And that number is also near zero. So near zero that noise suppression in every appliance is better.

Panamax has numbers. It does absolutely no surge protection until voltage exceeds 330 volts. And then it must somehow block that surge or absorb it. It does not claim to do either. Instead, it claims to protect from a completely different type of transient already made irrelevant by protection inside all electronics.

Surge protection is for destructive surges including lightning. Numbers say so. A typical lightning strike is 20,000 amps. So a minimal 'whole house' protector is 50,000 amps. A protector must not fail even after a direct lightning strike. Surge protection for appliances is for all destructive transients; including a direct lightning strike

Grossly undersizing a protector to fail on a surge (ie lightning) gets the naive to recommend it. Many power strips are simply $3 power strips with ten cent protector parts selling for $25 or (ie Monster) $120. Who else has obscene profit margins? Cigarette manufacturers?

Best protection is a hardwire (and low impedance) connection from each incoming utility wire to single point earth ground. That is protection from all types of surges. Unfortunately both telephone wires and most AC electric wires cannot connect directly to earth. So we do a next best protection. We replace that wire with a 'whole house' protector. Since effective protectors do not do protection. Effective protectors do what a wire does better.

Ineffective, undersized, and excessively expensive plug-in protectors will not discuss any of this. Honesty would harm profits. Many will pay $25 or $120 per appliance for protection only from surges that are made irrelevant by what is already inside appliances. Facilities that cannot have damage only use the other solution well proven by over 100 years of science and experience. A homeowner can have same for about $1 per protected appliance.

How many damning numbers have been included? 'Primary' protection layer is installed by the utilities. A picture demonstrates what every homeowner should inspect to confirm that protection layer exists. Again:
www.tvtower.com/fpl.html

'Secondary' protection is what a homeowner is responsible for installing, upgrading to exceed code, and inspecting. Single point earth ground. Every layer of protection is only defined by what absorbs energy. Every protection layer is defined by the earth ground.

An IEEE standard even provides numbers. Proper earthing does about 99.5 to 99.9% of protection (which is why lightning rods are so effective). The Panamax (that needs 'whole house' protection) may provide an additional 0.2%. So yes, a Panamax does protection. But Panamax forgets to say how much (how little).

To have protection from direct lightning strikes, earthing must both meet and exceed code. Protectors are simple science. A minimal 'whole house' protector is 50,000 amps so that a protecxtor does not fail. Earthing determines how effective that protection 'layer' will be. Earthing is an art summarized by four words with electrical significance: single point earth ground.

An HT system only needs a 15 amp circuit with plenty of wall receptacles. Properly earthed 'whole house' protection means everything on that circuit and on all other circuits (furnace, stove, clocks, CFL bulbs, door bell, TVs, bathroom GFCIs, etc) are protected. For tens of times less money.

An electrician can install a new circuit and receptacles. Also install a 'whole house' protector. AND, more important, fix or upgrade earthing to both meet and exceed code. A protector (even a ‘whole house’ type) is only as effective as its earth ground.

[Priapulus]

Nov 23, 2014 18:22:50 GMT -5 westom said:

Nov 23, 2014 8:47:50 GMT -5 Priapulus said:

Panamax does little for noise.

If you re-read my message, you will see I defined noise as:

"...the Panamax cleans up local noise (various spikes from motor starting, powerline switching, distant lightning hits, neighbour's welding machine)."

If you think that is not important, or that surge protectors can't clean that up; well, that's your opinion. I think it is important.

Sincerely

/b

[bluemeanies]

I could never see the revelance of a surge protector. However as seen in my signature I have a FurmanElite. It's there and I admit, because of all the hype when surge protectors and line conditioners were first coming up on the market and audio dealers were marketing it as a must have and how much cleaner your sound will be if you have one. Snake oil IMO.
Prior to them being readily available there was noting except the ground wire. All three of my amplifiers are powered directly to the wall as noted. As far as a NOTICABLE difference in sound...nada...at least nothing that these ears can distinguish from not having one. Video might be a little different but I never had a picture I did not like so t is hard for me to validate the use of this unit.

I know there will be a lot of people disagreeing with me on my perspective of this topic but that is what a forum is about...opinions.

[Priapulus]

The only thing that will help you with a close lightning strike is insurance. My friend had the power pole in front of his house hit. It split the pole in two, blew the service panel off his wall, and burnt down his workshop.

Surge protectors are intended to cleanup the inevitable spikes of noise resulting from your refrigerator motor starting up, your neighbor arc welding in his garage, powerline switching operations, nearby factory motors, etc. These can create brief spikes of 1,000's of volts. Utility power is extremely dirty; almost everything connected to it, feeds noise back into it.

I service custom computer controllers; they all have surge protectors. I've opened the dead protectors and found the MOV's blown to bits, yet the computer was fine. So I'm convinced.

My ex-girlfiend's (sic) father hates seatbelts; he says if he sees an accident coming he's just going hang onto the steering wheel really tight. You make your choices and take your chances. If you've got $6,000 worth of HT gear, it seems silly to me not so spend $40 on surge protection. But to spend $1,000 on a powerline conditioner is (IMHO) buying snake oil.

Sincerely
/b

[westom]

Nov 23, 2014 21:18:45 GMT -5 Priapulus said:

If you think that is not important, or that surge protectors can't clean that up; well, that's your opinion. I think it is important

I don't deal in opinions. I deal in facts based in how things work.

What happens to that 'cleaner' AC power? First 120 volts is filtered. Then converted to well over 300 volts. Filtered again. Then converted to high voltage radio frequency spikes. Now power is dirtier than anythng seen on AC mains. Then superior filter and cleaning circuits convert that 'dirtiest' power to rock solid low voltage DC. All that done inside electronics.

Noise removal is completely undone - electricity made even 'dirtier'. Then superior noise cleaning circuits inside electronics clean that 'dirtiest' noise.

Just another reason why power conditioning is hype. Sold to consumers who do not know that better power conditioning already exists. AND that any cleaning is first undone by electronics. Power conditioner made irrelevant for those two reasons and others.

That's not opinion. That is how electronics work. Not knowing that is why so many can be sold expensive power conditioner by electrically naive salesmen.

Refrigerator does not and never created 1000 volt spikes. If it did, the refrigerator was immediately destroyed. And you were replacing GFCIs, clocks, and other appliances hourly.

Noise is single digit volt spikes - might be as high as 10 volts. Noise is made irrelevant by protection found inside every appliance. Voltage so tiny as to not even be seen by surge protection components. Made completely irrelevant by other protection circuits found inside all appliances ... that are not MOVs.

What is a typical output from a UPS in battery backup mode? This 120 UPS outputs 200 volt square waves with spikes up to 270 volts. That is ideal power for any electronics due to superior protection already inside all electronics. Again, an example of how robust appliances already are. But we must protect them from 10 volt noise? It helps to learn these numbers before making recommendations.

Advertising and hearsay hypes noise with mythical numbers such as 1000 volts. Urban myths work when one makes recommendations without first learning this stuff. Recommendations made without learning this stuff - especially the numbers - is disingenous.

You would spend $40 on a protector that sometimes can make surge damage easier? That, in rare cases, creates a house fire? But would not spend $1 per protected appliance for the superior and essential 'whole house' solution?