|
|
Post by fusioneer on Dec 16, 2014 0:45:09 GMT -5
This is meant to be a bug report rather than a discussion. I am quite certain that this is correct after spending quite a bit of time verifying it. I discovered it while playing around with REW, whereby I promptly abandoned my efforts since EQ is not going to be usable. The problem has to do with bass management. In my setup, with no subwoofer and Large fronts, the bass from the center gets dropped on the floor rather than routed through the front speakers, in All Stereo mode which is what one is supposed to use for multi-PCM. The LFE track is also dropped on the floor. In Direct mode, the bass management is correct -- fronts get bass below 80 Hz and the LFE track. However, Direct mode means no EQ. Right now, NOT LOSING CONTENT wins over equalization. I should not have to choose, though. Again, the bass disappears into a black hole. It does NOT even go to the center. I can verify by temporarily setting the center to large that I can tell whether low frequencies go to it or not. It's quite probable that the same occurs with subwoofers, but I don't have the easy means and energy to test this. Consider checking this if you have Multi PCM sources. A frequency sweep of the center should make it very clear.
Update: this does not occur with subwoofer configs. However, if Enhanced Bass is enabled it also does not work properly in All Stereo mode, the LF content is not duplicated to the Large fronts, like it is in the other modes. This is a variant of the routing issues of the UMC-200 reported here: www.avsforum.com/forum/90-receivers-amps-processors/1491348-official-emotiva-umc-200-thread-4.html#post24254494 , where the orange modes are all wrong. I thought I was fine if I had no analog sources, despite having to sacrifice the headphone output to the gods of room correction. But it seems that "All Stereo" with HDMI multi-PCM is wrong after all, and it's a killer, Emotiva. A summary of the conditions: Fusion 8100 v1.52.02.54 Config: Large fronts, Small center @80hz, No subwoofer Input: 7.1 via HDMI Results: All Stereo (the recommended mode): center bass disappears, LFE track disappears Direct: center bass routed to fronts, but no EQ Expected: All Stereo: center bass and LFE routed to fronts, EQ available Direct: don't care, probably fine as it is I'm having a bad day right now having wasted a bunch of time trying to get EQ right only to find out I can't use it. Out of respect for this frustration, please don't try to tell me that this is somehow not a bug. It is, just like the headphone thing and the analog thing (for those who care). |
|
|
|
Post by Axis on Dec 16, 2014 1:23:45 GMT -5
Is this something where you have to use PCM multi channel with Room EQ Wizard? Are you saying you can not EQ the Fusion 8100 when using bitstream Dolby or DTS using HDMI input? I always thought that setting a speaker size too small will limit the low frequencies to that speaker. Never heard that the low frequencies after crossovers are applied go to the other mains. Always thought they only go to sub channel.
|
|
|
|
Post by fusioneer on Dec 16, 2014 2:21:05 GMT -5
This isn't about REW specifically, I could get around that. A bunch of sources need multi-PCM, and I have the unsavory choice of using Direct (no EQ) or using All Stereo (lose bass in the center). Between those two, I choose Direct. If you know EQ, you know that once you get used to it you don't switch back and forth depending on source because the changing sound will drive you nuts.
I don't think bass is lost in any other mode. All Stereo is somehow special, see also the linked diagram.
The low frequencies go to the mains if they are Large and no subwoofer. Where else would they go?
Also, I'd like to politely remind you of last paragraph of my first post. On this one, my threshold is low and unless you have *really* good information *please* trust me that it's a bug.
|
|
|
|
Post by Axis on Dec 16, 2014 3:43:58 GMT -5
I guess I do not understand using PCM multi channel. Is it music you are talking about ? I have the Fusion 8100 with a Direct TV box and an OPPO DVD player. I use HDMI for both and never even think about using All Stereo or Direct.
I do not use a subwoofer and have always set all my speakers to large. Unless the speakers are those little cigarette pack size that come with a Home Theater in a Box kits I am wondering why you would set your center to small. My center has two 4 " drivers and a tweeter and takes every frequency that the Fusion 8100 throws at it. Yes you will get all frequencies to your main left and right speakers when they are set to large but low frequencies intended for the center channel will be removed at the crossover frequency you have set when you select small for the center channel. I am not an expert on this stuff but I can only imagine that the reason you get the low frequencies to the center channel in Direct mode is Direct mode may bypass the crossovers. It may not be bass management that is happening just Direct mode bypassing everything. Bass management seems to be at work in All Stereo mode and doing a proper job of not sending frequencies below the set crossover with your center speaker set to small.
Is there a reason you have your center set to small? You said when you temporarily set the center to large you got the bass below 80 Hz with All Stereo. Why not leave it there?
|
|
|
|
Post by fusioneer on Dec 16, 2014 11:33:39 GMT -5
The center is small primarily because of placement. It's in a cabinet and it gets boomy in there at low frequencies. This is also why the center is not as bass-powerful as the mains in the first place. It works very well except for this problem. What I'm trying to do is to have a relatively small entertainment area that looks good and sounds great. I'm not willing to compromise on this presently.
Also, I think it's more than 50% likely that the same problem occurs with subwoofers and those of you who have one should test this. Bass management problems tend to work that way, the bass either gets routed or dropped on the floor, without much difference between sub and large speakers. I suppose if it worked properly for subwoofers I would feel a little better about a bug like this making it through.
Direct mode does not bypass the crossovers. I don't have a strong opinion on whether it should, like I said it's probably fine as it is. But it prevents my using an EQ.
Multi-PCM comes up in Playstation and Google Play Movies. It should work properly in a receiver.
|
|
|
|
Post by unsound on Dec 16, 2014 12:11:07 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure the frequencies below crossover are sent to the sub. They are not intended to go to the LR speakers. Anything below crossover frequency for any channel should get routed to the .1 channel and not re-mixed into the other channels. If you really wanted to set it up that way, the only thing I can think of is to set all 3 fronts to small and take the sub-out to an external amp and run it into your woofers. I don't think you can do that with your KEFs as they cannot be actively bi-amped. That is, the KEFs expect to get fed the same exact signal across all binding posts.
|
|
|
|
Post by fusioneer on Dec 16, 2014 12:50:44 GMT -5
unsound: to clarify once and for all hopefully, this is my setup: NO subwoofer LARGE fronts LF goes to the mains like God intended, in every mode other than All Stereo where it disappears All Stereo is the only mode I can use on Multi PCM other than Direct (which has no EQ) Do you have a multi-PCM input you can use to verify that this works correctly with a subwoofer? If nothing else, a computer through HDMI should work.
|
|
|
|
Post by unsound on Dec 16, 2014 13:42:57 GMT -5
I will see what I can play around with. To clarify, when you say LF, you just mean content below x-over from the Center and not LFE, correct? Also, when you say LARGE fronts, you mean LARGE LR and small Center, yes?
|
|
|
|
Post by Axis on Dec 16, 2014 14:02:00 GMT -5
fusioneer, I went and googled "Direct mode bypass crossovers" and everywhere I looked I read that not only does Direct mode bypass crossovers but all digital processing in a A/V receiver. This is also the reason you can not use the EQ's in Direct mode.
I am thinking the issue here is with the center channel set to small and a crossover of 80hz applied the only time you will hear low frequencies below 80hz from the center channel is in Direct mode. Whenever the digital processing is performed by the Fusion 8100 it will cut the low frequencies below 80hz for the center channel. The Fusion 8100 does both Dolby, DTS and may do other digital decoding but if the signal is routed to the digital processing of the Fusion 8100 the results for the center channel should be the same.
I do not know about PCM multi channel. Maybe it is a type signal that is processed at the source and not in the Fusion 8100 or any A/V receiver. I need to go look into that.
Stick with me fusioneer, just trying to help.
Mike
|
|
|
|
Post by fusioneer on Dec 16, 2014 15:09:05 GMT -5
I will see what I can play around with. To clarify, when you say LF, you just mean content below x-over from the Center and not LFE, correct? Also, when you say LARGE fronts, you mean LARGE LR and small Center, yes? Yes, all correct. The LFE channel works fine, the problem is the LF content in the center channel. fusioneer, I went and googled "Direct mode bypass crossovers" and everywhere I looked I read that not only does Direct mode bypass crossovers but all digital processing in a A/V receiver. This is also the reason you can not use the EQ's in Direct mode. Direct mode does not bypass bass management on the Emotiva. I have no problem with this, because bass management is so basic that Direct mode would not be usable with small speakers otherwise. In fact, because of this Direct mode gives me something I can use with Multi-PCM content, although I do lose EQ as expected. The problem is All Stereo mode, which should do proper bass management but it doesn't. The only other possibility for Multi-PCM is Stereo, which would work fine wrt bass and EQ, but I'd lose the center channel. I do not know about PCM multi channel. Maybe it is a type signal that is processed at the source and not in the Fusion 8100 or any A/V receiver. I need to go look into that. It's a signal that either gets decoded at the source, or generated there and never encoded into Dolby or such. The receiver should still do all processing on it. |
|
|
|
Post by fusioneer on Dec 16, 2014 15:13:42 GMT -5
I will see what I can play around with. Thanks, I appreciate it! The main problem will be finding a Multi-PCM source. Once you do, even if you don't have a controlled signal available it should be noticeable if you do indeed lose bass, by setting crossovers higher. The LFE track can get in the way (providing much of the environmental bass), but e.g. male voices with a high crossover should expose the problem. It might be a much bigger problem for you guys with subwoofers and more speakers if it occurs. After all, I only lose the center channel LF. If you cross over L and R the situation is much worse I imagine. |
|
|
|
Post by Axis on Dec 16, 2014 15:46:41 GMT -5
Everywhere I read about Direct mode for all A/V receivers is that Direct mode turns off all digital processing including bass management. This is something you need to contact Emotiva Tech support about. Misinformation about this could be one of your issues about the Fusion 8100. We want folks coming here that want to find out about Emotiva products to get good information. Including you fusioneer.
|
|
|
|
Post by Axis on Dec 16, 2014 15:55:18 GMT -5
Here is a thread about Direct mode for the UMC-200. emotivalounge.proboards.com/thread/28519/umc-200-direct-modeYou are correct if you are sending a digital signal fusioneer. Here is a post from that thread from KiethL. Correct: With an ANALOG INPUT, in DIRECT MODE, there is NO BASS MANAGEMENT, NO EQ (including no EmoQ), but you still get level trims. (The audio goes straight to the volume control.) With a DIGITAL INPUT, in DIRECT MODE, YOU DO GET BASS MANAGEMENT, but NO EQ (and no EmoQ), and you get the level trims. The DIRECT 7.1 INPUTS are simply a set of analog inputs that are LOCKED INTO DIRECT MODE (you can ONLY select Direct Mode for the 7.1 analog inputs). In other words, the 7.1 Analog Inputs in Direct Mode are like the other analog inputs in direct mode, except that you can't change to any other mode. Direct is whatever is sent to the UMC-200 is output from the UMC-200 unaltered...for example- 2 Channel CD it will output 2 channels with no EQ adjustments or subwoofer 5.1 Channel DVD/Blu-ray etc will output 5.1 channels with no EQ adjustments You can still adjust channel levels just no EQ with Direct mode. I have a UMC-1 and always watch my Blu-ray's in Direct..to me it sounds better, only thing I do is up the center speaker level a bit. |
|
|
|
Post by wiskers on Dec 16, 2014 16:00:40 GMT -5
The bugs in the UMC-200 are well documented on the avs forums with a chart, if the fusion is along the lines of the UMC-200 then I suppose the same bugs would be present. These would have to be fixed with a firmware update.
|
|
|
|
Post by unsound on Dec 16, 2014 16:00:49 GMT -5
It might be a much bigger problem for you guys with subwoofers and more speakers if it occurs. After all, I only lose the center channel LF. If you cross over L and R the situation is much worse I imagine. I'm pretty sure the situation doesn't happen if you have a Sub. The content below x-over just goes to the sub (like, I think, it should). I think the challenge in your situation is to have the center channel content below x-over getting mixed in with the LRs. Based on the fact that you can have independent x-overs for the channel, I imagine the processor first splits the content by channel and then applies bass management. While the processor will then sum up LFE and content below x-over from all channels to send to the sub, I don't think it will sum it up to send to the LRs. For the surrounds, I would probably expect slightly different. Since you have no Surrounds, the surround content is likely downmixed to stereo before BM is applied. So, I would expect that you would hear all frequencies from surround channels through the LRs if they are set to large. So, if you set your Center channel to None, I would expect to hear all content through the LRs when set to large. |
|
|
|
Post by yves on Dec 16, 2014 16:42:59 GMT -5
So, if you set your Center channel to None, I would expect to hear all content through the LRs when set to large. No, with the Center channel set to None, the Sub set to None, the Front LR set to Large, and the Side LR set to Small, then you get exactly what I have, i.e., the Center channel, the LFE channel, and the bass from the Side LR crossover are all routed to the Front LR, giving you a 4.0 channel, or 'quadrophonic' setup. |
|
|
|
Post by fusioneer on Dec 16, 2014 16:57:47 GMT -5
Everywhere I read about Direct mode for all A/V receivers is that Direct mode turns off all digital processing including bass management. This is something you need to contact Emotiva Tech support about. Misinformation about this could be one of your issues about the Fusion 8100. We want folks coming here that want to find out about Emotiva products to get good information. Including you fusioneer. Like I said, I'm fine with what Direct mode is doing. It's All Stereo mode that's the problem. Thanks for finding confirmation. I'm pretty sure the situation doesn't happen if you have a Sub. You should test this in Multi-PCM input, All Stereo mode. I am not sure at all it will work properly because these things go hand in hand. While the processor will then sum up LFE and content below x-over from all channels to send to the sub, I don't think it will sum it up to send to the LRs. It should ( edit: if no subwoofer present), and it does in every other situation. Dolby, DTS, etc, all work fine. Even Multi-PCM with Direct. It's just Multi-PCM with All Stereo, which is the proper mode to use for such inputs. |
|
|
|
Post by Axis on Dec 16, 2014 17:22:30 GMT -5
fusioneer, from your opening post I was reading that you were getting the frequencies below 80hz to the front left and right set to Large in All Stereo mode. I was reading that only the center channel was not getting frequencies below 80hz with center speaker set to small and crossover set @ 80hz.
After reading recent replies I am a little confused about what is happening in All Stereo mode. Are you saying that in All Stereo mode with front left and right set to Large and center set to small and only center channel crossover set @ 80hz that the front left and right are not getting frequencies below 80hz ? They should if they are set to large regardless of the center set to small.
You may need to address the center speaker placement that is causing the bad effects when low frequencies are applied.
Do you get the full range of frequencies to the left and right mains and center when all three fronts are set to large with All Stereo mode? If you do, this is the route I would go to overcome the issue.
|
|
|
|
Post by Gary Cook on Dec 16, 2014 18:31:29 GMT -5
Just thinking about a multi channel source played "all stereo" makes my brain hurt. I'm not even sure why I would do it. With a multi channel source I would want the sound coming out of the speaker that it was coded (by the sound mixer/engineer) to come out of. That's not even "stereo", let alone " all stereo". It's more like DD or DTS or DPL etc which in my case is 5.1.
Having a centre channel active in "all stereo" seems oxymoronic, I'd want all the left channel coded stuff to come out of all the left speakers and all the right channel coded stuff to come out of all the right speakers. I'm not sure how a centre channel fits in to that regimen. Whenever I use "all stereo", albeit not very often and only for parties, I have all speakers set to large, no centre and no sub woofer.
Obviously I'm missing something here.
Cheers
Gary
|
|
|
|
Post by Axis on Dec 16, 2014 19:06:29 GMT -5
Just thinking about a multi channel source played "all stereo" makes my brain hurt. I'm not even sure why I would do it. With a multi channel source I would want the sound coming out of the speaker that it was coded (by the sound mixer/engineer) to come out of. That's not even "stereo", let alone " all stereo". It's more like DD or DTS or DPL etc which in my case is 5.1. Having a centre channel active in "all stereo" seems oxymoronic, I'd want all the left channel coded stuff to come out of all the left speakers and all the right channel coded stuff to come out of all the right speakers. I'm not sure how a centre channel fits in to that regimen. Whenever I use "all stereo", albeit not very often and only for parties, I have all speakers set to large, no centre and no sub woofer. Obviously I'm missing something here. Cheers Gary I have been searching to see what All Stereo actually does. If someone knows what is happening with a Multi Channel signal it may help clear up this issue for those who think this is a bug with the UMC-200 and Fusion 8100. I read that a Multi Channel signal is mixed down to Two Channel Stereo. Not sure if the center channel is just a mix of a left and right stereo channel or what. I tend to think there is no bug with the UMC-200 and Fusion 8100 and when All Stereo mode is selected the design was to send the left stereo signal to the left mains and left surrounds and send the right stereo signal to the right mains and right surrounds. Maybe send a left channel mono or stereo mix to the center. The design may be to set all speakers to the same size to provide a balanced stereo sound. The design may be to choose the smallest speaker size set in the speaker settings for any and all speakers enabled to insure that the sound is balanced. With speakers set at different sizes this could make for a pretty whacked sound and it is not a Multi Channel signal anymore. It is a just a left and right stereo signal. |
|
