Trigger, ventilation, pre-amp & speaker questions

[rdavidw]

Greetings and thank you in advance for any suggestions,

I just ordered a XPA-2 and a XPA-3. Here is my current system:

TV Samsung 60" 

Front Speakers Polk Audio LSi15 2003
Center Speaker Polk Audio LSiC 2003
Surround Speakers Polk Audio LSiFX 2003
Sub-woofer Velodyne SPL1200 2003

Receiver Pioneer Elite VSX-47TX 2003
 (Front tower speakers bi-amped)
Turn Table Pro-Ject RM 1.3 w/ Acrylic Patter 2012
Game Console PlayStation 4 2012
PC TCP i7 TCP i7 with SB Z PCIe 2014
Cable Box Verizon Motorola HD 2010

Receiver 2 Harmon Kardon HK3480 2003
Deck Speakers Polk Audio Atrium 8 SDI 2013
Garage Speakers Design Acoustics 1992

The receiver is only rated to 6 ohm but my LSi speakers are listed at 4 ohm and are reported to dip lower. I have played the system at high levels for over a decade and have not had any problems so far but I know I have been lucky.

I originally set up the system primarily for HT but now find I am using it more in stereo playing vinyl. The room is small, 15’ deep, 20’ wide with one end open and 10’ tall. I was going to upgrade just my front speakers to improve the stereo sound and looked at the following:
• Polk Audio LsiM 705 (Way too bright and did not image well)
• Maggie 1.7 (Very nice for jazz, classical and vocals but for something like reggae or dub is was flat even with a sub)
• Golden Ear Trition 2 (Nice but not much of an improvement from my Lsi15s & Velodyne to my ears)

After listening to a couple others as well I keep going back to liking the sound of my current speakers. I will see how they sound with the new amps.

Anyway, here are a few questions I have:

1. How much if any is keeping the Pioneer Elite VSX-47TX as my pre-amp going to limit my systems performance? Would upgrading to something like XMC-1 or a Marantz AV7701 make a noticeable improvement in the sound quality?  Do these pre-amps support a 5.1 setup?

2. The Pioneer Elite VSX-47TX does not seem to have a trigger out. It has a old proprietary Pioneer link cable but I don't think that is a simple trigger. It does have a switched power outlet on the back. Could I simply get a DC transformer and splice it into the trigger cable? If so, how many watts/volts/amps do I want?

3. I have limited space in my non-ventilated cabinet. I was going to stack the XPA-3 on the XPA-2 in a small cabinet with a glass door with the back panel removed. Could I get a little computer fan and hook it up to the trigger cable? Is it better to blow the hot air out of the top or blow room temp air into the bottom?

4. If I am still looking to improve the stereo sound after I get the new XPA-2 hooked up – how do you think it would sound if I got the Maggie 1.7 or the new smaller .7 and run them off the XPA-2 and keep my Lsi15s next to them but disconnect the high end of the bi-amp and let the receiver amp continue to drive the mid and low range of the Lsi15s. Or, I could just disconnect the tweeters on the Polk Lsi15s. Would the slower midrange of the Lsi15 muddy the sound of the Magneplanar or would it nicely fill in the gap from the mid-range to the sub?

Thank you again for your help and suggestions!

[leonski]

with a 20' long room with 10' height, I'd say to spend some $$$ on FIXING the room. I've RARELY (never, actually) heard Maggies called 'flat'. A kluge like you suggest could only be experienced and experimented with. Full Range Maggie 1.7s with the Polk speakers running ONLY low and mids? Again, Few complaints are registered about Maggie Mids. Sounds like a recipe for phase and image problems which would be very difficult to work out.

If you intend a 2.1 system, DUMP the Pioneer, which may be holding the whole thing back. Look at the Parasound P7 and see if that meets your requirements.

Besides 'better' 2ch sound, do you have any system goals, or just MORE?

[strindl]

Jan 13, 2015 15:56:48 GMT -5 rdavidw said:

Greetings and thank you in advance for any suggestions,


4. If I am still looking to improve the stereo sound after I get the new XPA-2 hooked up – how do you think it would sound if I got the Maggie 1.7 or the new smaller .7 and run them off the XPA-2 and keep my Lsi15s next to them but disconnect the high end of the bi-amp and let the receiver amp continue to drive the mid and low range of the Lsi15s. Or, I could just disconnect the tweeters on the Polk Lsi15s. Would the slower midrange of the Lsi15 muddy the sound of the Magneplanar or would it nicely fill in the gap from the mid-range to the sub?

Thank you again for your help and suggestions!

I would definitely not do that scenario. The mids, highs and coherence of the Maggies are it's strengths. Running parts of your Polks with the 1.7's in the manner you describe would degrade the sound. I have owned Magnepans for almost 38 years, and currently own a pair of 1.7's, an MGC-3 Center channel, a pair of 1.6's and a pair of mmg's. I also own some Emotiva amps and can tell you that maggies and Emotiva amps work together wonderfully. My XPA-2 is currently driving the 1.6's in my bedroom system, but I have had it hooked up to the 1.7's in the living room as well. a properly setup pair of 1.7's, driven by an XPA 2, will deliver a large, vividly realistic sound stage. For that last octave in bass , you still want a subwoofer with the 1.7's, but they do a credible job with bass all by themselves for most listening.

[rdavidw]

Thanks for the awesome suggestions leonski & strindl.

I will not mix the Lsi15s with the Maggies.  I like the Maggies.  I listened to them for about an hour on a Rogue Audio Cronus Magnum Integrated Amp and Project turn table. I was very impressed with the Jazz and folk type acoustical music. My 1968 copy of Les Paul Now! killed it on that system, very clean and just massive. Perhaps my expectations were too high when I put on Lee Scratch Perry and the Whitebellyrats - Panic in Babylon and then Scuba’s Triangulation. The dub and electronic music with heavy base lines did not feel very immersive. I don’t know what sub was hooked up but it was rather weak. With my current sub and a direct replacement of the Polk Lsi15, I may be more impressed with that style of music.  

The Maggies 1.7 and the Parasound P7 you recommended are both about 2K. Which would you recommend to upgrade to first?

Not much I can do to change the room for now. With only 15 deep the front speakers may be too close to the back wall. This could be a bigger problem for the Maggies and I may need to pull them off the wall when listening. I am looking to move at some point and will make sure my theater / listening room is a better size.

Here are my priorities:
1. Good play of vinyl records in stereo 2.1 for a wide range of music:

• Jazz
• Reggae & Dub
• Classic & acoustic rock
• Chinese Classical Guzheng – My wife rocks the Guzheng
• Classical

2. Home theater - I am shopping for a 4k 70” tv. If I am replacing my Pioneer AV I may want to get a preamp AV with 4K up scaling such at the Marantz AV7701. I don’t currently run any video through my Pioneer.
3. Computer & gaming – I have kids

Would I be better off getting a dedicated stereo pre-amp with a good phono in and a HT bypass? I could then only power up my stereo pre-amp and XPA-2 while running the turntable. I would then leave the stereo pre-amp off when the HT pre-amp was on for 5.1.  Does the Emo XSP-1 have a HT bypass?

I can pick up a discontinued Marantz AV7701 for $1,200. It has a phono input but I don’t know how good it is. It also has the HDMI 4K up-scaling and balanced outs. I wonder how the sound quality would compare to my ten year old Pioneer or to something higher end such as the Parasound P7 or Emo XMC-1?

Do all of the 7.1 pre-amps have the option to run a 5.1 system so the rear and surround channels are both sent to the two back speakers?

[novisnick]

Hello and welcome to the addiction!! 8)

Personally I'd slow down about the TV unless your without. 4K prices are about to drop in a few months and the newer tech is on its way. I do relize that at some point we need to purchase, I'm in that boat.

I'm waiting for the 4K players to hit the market or at least define their perimeters.
I'd also wait on an AVR, FIRST THING ID DO IS PURCHASE THE AMAZING (dang cap lock!!) XSP-1 yes it has HT pass through and the Phono stage is really nice!!
I'm a vinyl enthusiast as well and running my Rega P6 through the XSP-1 to the amps then speakers is killer great!

Just love this rig!!

See my sig for the rest of the system.
Enjoy this ride, your going to love it!! 8)

[leonski]

Too bad that it doesn't appear they can make a 4k PLASMA TV. I love my Panny Plasma but when the time comes I'll end up with LED / LCD.

[mshump]

With the size of your room you may want to consider the Magnepan MMG's and a good subwoofer (rel,PSA,SVS) I have a set of MMG's and they are an excellent speaker, The definitely need a subwoofer.
I would also as Nick pointed out, look at the XSP-1, This pre amp is a very good 2 Ch preamp. With the HT Bypass in it you can add HT processing later or use your pioneer with it if it has pre-outs.
For the AMP I would put an XPA-2 or UPA-200, When I went from UPA-200 to XPA-3 with the MMG's I didn't hear that great a difference. I now run the XPA-3 for the 3 fronts and UPA for the rears.

[leonski]

SUPER MMG with the DWM panel is amazing. for that size room? you MIGHT need a 2nd DWM. This drives the price up, but Man, those MMG speakers are a TREAT. I heard them at T.H.E. Newport last year and it was SRO, with you needing to 'take a number' and come back at the appointed time for a seat. The SINGLE DWM version would work well with your SUB.

As for 'what to change first?' I have no idea. You'll need a proper amp for the 1.7s and you can't biamp 'em. And if you just want to LOOK at the Parasound P7, you should find a dealer and talk to 'em about what it is good for and NOT good for.

I know less about current HT stuff than you'd think possible.

[rdavidw]

The place where I checked out the Magnepan 1.7 suggested the new .7 as they are between the size of the MMG and 1.7. They are getting a demo in within a few weeks.

My XPA-2 & XPA-3 are due to be delivered today! I am going to use my Pioneer Elite VSX-47TX with RCA pre-outs as my pre-amp and power my front speakers (Currently the Polk Lsi15s) with the XPA-2 and power my Polk LsiC center and my Polk LsiFX surround speakers with the XPA-3. For a purely HT setup I would have added more power to the center but it should be fine for now.

My next upgrades are going to include:

* New speakers, probably the Magnepan 1.7 or .7 and a Magnepan center. I may get the .7 now and when I get a larger room use those as my surrounds and get the 1.7s up front. I was not all that impressed with the Magnepan bass panels. My current Velodyne SPL1200 sub my be ok. It's more than plenty for HT but I don't know if it will keep up with the speed of the Magnepans for music.

* Better Pre-amp. I can't decide on a single AV pre-amp or a stereo pre-amp with a HT bypass and a separate HT pre-amp. How would the 2.1 sound compare between the stereo Emo XSP-1 for $1,000 and the $2,000 Emo XMC-1? Can the XMC-1 be configured for a 5.1 speaker system? I would still need to get a phono pre-amp with the XMC-1 so the price would be about the same as getting a XSP-1 and something like a Marantz AV7701 for $1,200. Anyone know if the Marantz AV7701 can be configured to process 5.1 and not 7.1? I prefer the simplicity of only having one pre-amp but am mostly focused on vinyl. I will also check out the Parasound P7 but at the $2k+ range I would like to incorporate 4k video upscaling as I will be replacing my tv eventually with a 4k.

Thanks again for all of the awesome suggestions - it's a big help.

[leonski]

It's good you have a Magnepan dealer near enough to go LISTEN and hopefully learn. They DID mention you need a MINIMUM of 3 feet behind EACH speaker? 5 feet would be more like it. Setup with Maggies CAN be a PIA and a trip to the Planar Asylum is recommended for a whole host of alternative setups, some of which are a pretty neat.

[stlaudiofan1]

I have 1.6QRs for fronts and coned speakers for the others. For home theater, it works great. I have no phase issue, etc. However, I have a 100" projection screen and a 20D x 12W x 8H room, so I have to place the Maggies into the corners of the room, or they get in the way of the projection. When I listen to 2 channel, I have to move the Maggies into the middle of the room. I found in my room that is exactly 1/2 the distance from the front wall to the listening position. The closer they get to the front wall, the less soundstage depth I get. They also need to be away from the side walls. Their are so many people with different opinions on placement. I more or less used the method stated on the Cardas web site and then adjusted the distance from the front wall to my listening position. After that adjusted the distance from the side wall to tighten up the sound. You need room to get the true benefits.

I'm willing to reposition them when listening to 2 channel, but it may not be practical for everyone....or they may just not want to mess with it. If I had to leave them in the corners....I would get different speakers. I have my eye on Vanderstein Treos. I went to the RMAF this year and really liked them in the several rooms that used them. They have a smaller footprint, and their shape is better for getting out of the way of the screen. They are also about 8K, however.

[leonski]

It MIGHT help you to experiment with Tweeters 'IN'. This might allow you to place them closer to the side walls AND keep the tweeters away. Many (several, actually) persons experiment with 'alternative' setups with panels. Including stuff like FACING one another or diagonal in corners. All sorts of things. 30 years+ ago, when I had MG-1, I'd face them AT one another, maybe 3 feet apart and LIE DOWN between them. Worlds Greatest open air headphones and PERFECT for a late-night listening session without disturbing anyone.

A quick trip to Planar Asylum for details and more suggestions. You are NOT alone and many persons have already blazed your trail.

[stlaudiofan1]

Jan 16, 2015 19:02:52 GMT -5 leonski said:

It MIGHT help you to experiment with Tweeters 'IN'. This might allow you to place them closer to the side walls AND keep the tweeters away. Many (several, actually) persons experiment with 'alternative' setups with panels. Including stuff like FACING one another or diagonal in corners. All sorts of things. 30 years+ ago, when I had MG-1, I'd face them AT one another, maybe 3 feet apart and LIE DOWN between them. Worlds Greatest open air headphones and PERFECT for a late-night listening session without disturbing anyone.

A quick trip to Planar Asylum for details and more suggestions. You are NOT alone and many persons have already blazed your trail.

Yeah, I have tried virtually every position, tweeters in tweeters out, and have an extensive understanding of how they sound in the various positions...it literally took months of moving here and there.  Because there is almost as much energy coming out of the back of the speaker as there is going toward the listener, room treatments were also key to getting good sound.  I found one of the key treatments was the center reflection point, which also happens to be where the screen is.  I have a special acoustic panel that is on a stand.  I also move that to the center when listening to 2 channel.  It's almost magical when everything is setup right.  It's really special.  

Ideally, I would have a seperate room for my 2 channel system....which would be wider than 12 ft.  Just not practical in my house.  I had to make the use of my dedicated basement home theater room for multi-purpose.  Like I said, I have no problems moving them around.

[leonski]

Have you flipped 'em front to back? They are different on each side except for the 20 series which have push/pull drivers and are symmetrical.
Other setups exist, too. Go to Audio Asylum / planar and look up 'Rooze' and a few others. Some owners have taken GREAT liberties with setup and one of these alternatives MIGHT be your cup of Tea.

I ended up listening to the mylar side with tweeters 'in'. And YES. If I had the ability to REALLY go after the room, some Between Panel Diffusion would be a good start. The 50" TV in between certainly CAN'T help.

Sounds like you probably even know about the odd dispersion pattern (big figure 8) of panels, too. The sides (directly) on edge CANCEL front and back waves and have NO sound! Stuff like that takes some time to learn
about panels, but it would seem you are adventerous enough to go thru what MIGHT take a while to get the 'right' setup.