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Post by pallpoul on Feb 12, 2015 21:29:24 GMT -5
I swapped my XPA-200 with a recently purchased Onkyo M-504, both rated at 150 wpc, and still using xda-2 and usp-1 and same pair of Def. Tech.'s 7006. To my ears the sound is much more open and refined, clearer and just much more pleasant (to my ears) then with the xpa-200. Can someone please explain to me why is there this big difference to my ears ?? I am baffled.
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Post by jt357 on Feb 12, 2015 22:22:46 GMT -5
IMHO, you're happy with what the M-504 brings to the party...nothing wrong with that!
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Post by brutiarti on Feb 12, 2015 22:28:47 GMT -5
Probably there is good synergy with your speakers and the amp, i will try the xpa-2 or monoblocks maybe, the xpr looks like overkill for that sensistivity but you never have too much power
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Post by garbulky on Feb 13, 2015 4:00:06 GMT -5
Because it looks like this!! But seriously probably because the Onkyo does pretty good. It also could be that your speakers aren't positioned just right for the UPA-2 amp. Or it's a synergy thng.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2015 5:20:05 GMT -5
No offense at all intended. That said, you don't explain much except that you swapped the two amps. Does that mean you simply replaced the XPA-200 in the chain with the M-504 and then listened with the M-504 driving your speakers and heard the improvement? It is possible that you did in fact really hear clearly improved sound, however, I do perhaps have some doubt. Many times when someone adds a new amp, pre, DAC, CD player, etc. they now are listening/concentrating much more intently than before and thus believe they hear new things, clarity, better soundstage, etc. than with the previous component. If this is how you made the comparison (a simple one way swap) then I would have several fairly easy suggestions for you to make a quasi-blind comparison with the help of a second person. This would not entail any complicated A/B switching/wiring scheme. It would take an hour or two (plus several RCA y-splitters) and might give a new perhaps more accurate comparison. It might also confirm your current findings. It would make me feel more confident about the differences you percieve you hear or in fact really do hear.
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Post by moko on Feb 14, 2015 10:32:19 GMT -5
I swapped my XPA-200 with a recently purchased Onkyo M-504, both rated at 150 wpc, and still using xda-2 and usp-1 and same pair of Def. Tech.'s 7006. To my ears the sound is much more open and refined, clearer and just much more pleasant (to my ears) then with the xpa-200. Can someone please explain to me why is there this big difference to my ears ?? I am baffled. interisting. does this old onkyo has been modded by previous owner ?
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Post by vneal on Feb 14, 2015 10:44:29 GMT -5
Are you using the same cables? lol
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Post by pallpoul on Feb 14, 2015 14:28:04 GMT -5
Are you using the same cables? lol ohhhh, the great cable debate,...I used my shoes strings,...lol
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Post by pallpoul on Feb 14, 2015 14:32:56 GMT -5
No offense at all intended. That said, you don't explain much except that you swapped the two amps. Does that mean you simply replaced the XPA-200 in the chain with the M-504 and then listened with the M-504 driving your speakers and heard the improvement? It is possible that you did in fact really hear clearly improved sound, however, I do perhaps have some doubt. Many times when someone adds a new amp, pre, DAC, CD player, etc. they now are listening/concentrating much more intently than before and thus believe they hear new things, clarity, better soundstage, etc. than with the previous component. If this is how you made the comparison (a simple one way swap) then I would have several fairly easy suggestions for you to make a quasi-blind comparison with the help of a second person. This would not entail any complicated A/B switching/wiring scheme. It would take an hour or two (plus several RCA y-splitters) and might give a new perhaps more accurate comparison. It might also confirm your current findings. It would make me feel more confident about the differences you percieve you hear or in fact really do hear. I did a simple swap. for my un trained ears, I could tell a positive difference,.. or maybe it was the needles meter that gave me the placebo effect. I wonder why emotiva does not come up with amps with amp meters needles like the Onkyo m 5000r .
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Post by pallpoul on Feb 14, 2015 14:34:11 GMT -5
Because it looks like this!! But seriously probably because the Onkyo does pretty good. It also could be that your speakers aren't positioned just right for the UPA-2 amp. Or it's a synergy thng. yes this is what I have, but in mint condition!!1
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Post by sparky14 on Feb 14, 2015 14:39:06 GMT -5
Amp with pretty meters always sound better. I can't stand Salma Hayek's voice, but she could stand in front of me and I'd listen to her all day and think it was wonderful.
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Post by moko on Feb 14, 2015 17:14:24 GMT -5
No offense at all intended. That said, you don't explain much except that you swapped the two amps. Does that mean you simply replaced the XPA-200 in the chain with the M-504 and then listened with the M-504 driving your speakers and heard the improvement? It is possible that you did in fact really hear clearly improved sound, however, I do perhaps have some doubt. Many times when someone adds a new amp, pre, DAC, CD player, etc. they now are listening/concentrating much more intently than before and thus believe they hear new things, clarity, better soundstage, etc. than with the previous component. If this is how you made the comparison (a simple one way swap) then I would have several fairly easy suggestions for you to make a quasi-blind comparison with the help of a second person. This would not entail any complicated A/B switching/wiring scheme. It would take an hour or two (plus several RCA y-splitters) and might give a new perhaps more accurate comparison. It might also confirm your current findings. It would make me feel more confident about the differences you percieve you hear or in fact really do hear. I did a simple swap. for my un trained ears, I could tell a positive difference,.. or maybe it was the needles meter that gave me the placebo effect. I wonder why emotiva does not come up with amps with amp meters needles like the Onkyo m 5000r . congratulations ! you just discover that NOT all amps sound the same
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2015 0:34:10 GMT -5
No offense at all intended. That said, you don't explain much except that you swapped the two amps. Does that mean you simply replaced the XPA-200 in the chain with the M-504 and then listened with the M-504 driving your speakers and heard the improvement? It is possible that you did in fact really hear clearly improved sound, however, I do perhaps have some doubt. Many times when someone adds a new amp, pre, DAC, CD player, etc. they now are listening/concentrating much more intently than before and thus believe they hear new things, clarity, better soundstage, etc. than with the previous component. If this is how you made the comparison (a simple one way swap) then I would have several fairly easy suggestions for you to make a quasi-blind comparison with the help of a second person. This would not entail any complicated A/B switching/wiring scheme. It would take an hour or two (plus several RCA y-splitters) and might give a new perhaps more accurate comparison. It might also confirm your current findings. It would make me feel more confident about the differences you percieve you hear or in fact really do hear. I did a simple swap. for my un trained ears, I could tell a positive difference,.. or maybe it was the needles meter that gave me the placebo effect. I wonder why emotiva does not come up with amps with amp meters needles like the Onkyo m 5000r . You also said: the sound is much more open and refined, clearer and just much more pleasantThose are confirmations that you definitely perceive a significant difference/improvement with the Onkyo M-504 versus what you remember from the sound of the XPA-200 and not just a slight difference which would perhaps take some careful listening like in a carefully set up blind A/B comparison. That is why I suggest possibly trying a much simpler and easy to conduct listening comparison between the M-504 and the XPA-200. It takes a helper and two RCA splitters if you don't already have them (very cheap from Monoprice, etc.). There is no level matching needed here since we are not talking about minute differences and you are allowed to change the volume during the test. Your helper will keep a chart. He or she draws blind from a bowl ten pieces of paper, 5 with "O" for Onkyo and 5 with "E" for Emo. Write them down in the order drawn on a piece of paper, from 1-10. This is strictly in a random order as drawn which only the helper knows (you are not even there when he does this). So he might have a 1-10 list such as: 1-O, 2-E, 3-E, 4-E, 5-O, 6-E, 7-O, 8-O, 9-E and 10-O. You leave your system as is now with the M-504 and then also hook in the XPA-200 as an second/alternative amp. Use an RCA splitter jack or cable, so that you can use either amp by simply plugging the L&R speaker wires into either amp with a quick change (hopefully you have banana connectors on the speaker wires). Other than the amps, all remains exactly the same from the source to the speakers. You leave the room and the helper connects amp #1 as on his list. You have already decided to play all ten times the same high quality track from a CD disc for example. You and the helper make sure you cannot see which amp is playing, might have to cover the front of the M-504, etc. You come back into the room when he is ready and you are able to control the volume with the remote. Always start the music track at zero volume for each test 1-10 and then increase it to a comfortable volume for you. During the music selection you can vary the volume up or down as you like. At the end of the track or after you like, maybe 1, 2, 3 minutes, you mute the music and declare which amp you think was playing. This might not sound fair to others at first, but remember you said the improvement with the M-504 was clearly obvious. The helper notes next to #1 on his list your guess as to the actual amp playing. If he had the Onkyo playing and you guessed correctly he would show #1-O-O, or if you were wrong it would show #1-O-E. You leave again the room or house for maybe 3 minutes or more while he makes sure the correct amp per his list is now connected for test #2 (be sure you can't hear if he is changing the speaker wire). You repeat this ten times. This entire process can be repeated another ten times if desired with a different musical track or you could increase from 1-10 to 1-20 plays. He now sees how many of the ten times you were correct. If in fact you really were able to hear a clear difference when you first listened to the M-504 as you posted above then you should score very well on this test confirming that the sound of the M-504 was better. If you thought you did hear a difference during the test but scored poorly or you admit that you really had to flat out guess most of the time, then you would know that your original conclusion about the M-504 being clearly better was influenced by other factors such as it was the new purchase or the sexy meters, or your preconceived expectations. If you still have the XPA-200, I hope this doesn't sound like too much work, because I think it is a legitimate exercise, actually lots of fun and can be quite revealing.
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Post by bub on Feb 15, 2015 5:27:23 GMT -5
Amp with pretty meters always sound better. I can't stand Salma Hayek's voice, but she could stand in front of me and I'd listen to her all day and think it was wonderful. 1+. Salma has a pair of the most spectacular meters ever.
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bootman
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Typing useless posts on internet forums....
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Post by bootman on Feb 15, 2015 8:14:38 GMT -5
What you are missing are some before and after measurements. REW graph before and after will tell you exactly what's going on. That is assuming you really want to know vs just saying it is so here.
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Post by ocezam on Feb 15, 2015 9:47:15 GMT -5
I wonder why emotiva does not come up with amps with amp meters needles like the Onkyo m 5000r . View AttachmentPeople have been begging Emotiva to put meters on some of their amps for about as long as I can remember. They did put meters on the RPA-1 and RPA-2.
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Post by ocezam on Feb 15, 2015 9:52:05 GMT -5
Amp with pretty meters always sound better. I can't stand Salma Hayek's voice, but she could stand in front of me and I'd listen to her all day and think it was wonderful. 1+. Salma has a pair of the most spectacular meters ever. I think Salma Hayek has a great voice. Then again, it MAY BE placebo effect:
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Post by thorcorps on Feb 15, 2015 10:41:28 GMT -5
Just enjoy the difference in sound. No reason to question it.
If you really want to try to guess at what is going on, you can listen to your Onkyo for a couple of weeks, then swap back in the Emo's. I find that kind of thing much more useful than quick A/B's.
There are quite a number of reasons you may enjoy the Onkyo better. For example, if your room is untreated, the flat frequency response of the Emo may sound a bit bright or etched. If the Onkyo has a bit of a roll-off in the treble, it may sound more relaxed in an untreated room. It may have a bump (warmth) in the mid-bass which you may prefer. Lots of potential reasons.
Your pre-amp, dac, amp, speakers and room are all responsible for what you hear. You may make other changes years from now, swap things around again, and find you prefer the Emo. Happens to all of us.
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Post by vcautokid on Feb 15, 2015 12:18:10 GMT -5
Sometimes our hobby isn't all science. Thank goodness for that. For the joy of the music, and listening, and being engaged. This is why we do it for real. Though some of US get maybe too wrapped up in the science because it is fun. At the end of the, and the output of your speaker.
It is what YOU like, not someone else talking you into whether or not you should, or should not. I am glad we all can talk, and listen in the best of times together. Lets keep the music playing, and enjoy.
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Post by moko on Feb 15, 2015 12:59:14 GMT -5
What you are missing are some before and after measurements. REW graph before and after will tell you exactly what's going on. That is assuming you really want to know vs just saying it is so here. hmmm...i wonder how can we measure transparency ?
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