|
|
Post by DavidR on Apr 5, 2015 13:18:59 GMT -5
I already have the XPA-2 Gen2 on my AR90s and love the sound compared to a modded Carver amp I was running that had more watts.
I am thinking about selling all my modded carver gear and putting the XPA-2 in the HT system and a SA-250 on the AR90s.
It would seem that the SA-250 has better bass than the XPA-2.
At some point we will be moving and I hope to combine my Office gear with the HT gear. No space in the Family room to do that now.
By performance: how will it handle my AR90s. It should be better at it than the XPA-2 which doesn't break a sweat.
|
|
|
|
Post by DavidR on Apr 8, 2015 21:52:08 GMT -5
(please bear with me on this)
If the XSP-1 is Differential is that feature wasted when using a non differential amp like the SA-250?
In other words the differential signal is carried to the amp but not thru the amp to the speakers?
|
|
hemster
Global Moderator 
Particle Manufacturer
...still listening... still watching
Posts: 51,920
|
Post by hemster on Apr 8, 2015 21:55:04 GMT -5
(please bear with me on this) If the XSP-1 is Differential is that feature wasted when using a non differential amp like the SA-250? In other words the differential signal is carried to the amp but not thru the amp to the speakers? Technically, yes. |
|
|
|
Post by garbulky on Apr 8, 2015 23:51:40 GMT -5
As hemster mentioned, that is correct. The SA-250 isn't fully balanced in the way it needs to be to enjoy the full benefits. To enjoy the full (theoretical) benefits of balanced architecture you would want to pair it with either an XPA-1 L (gen 1 or gen 2), XPA-1 gen 1 (or gen 2), XPR-1. Now...something to keep in mind...is that your original analog source (like your CD players analog out or your DAC's analog out) needs to be FULLY BALANCED too. Just because the CD player has XLR outputs or your DAC has XLR outputs does not mean that it is fully balanced. Now note that you can have a digital signal that is also fully balanced (AES XLR output) but it is not necessary for the digital signal to be fully balanced to keep the signal fully balanced. Only the analog outputs, pre-amp, and amp. Having said all that....I have heard the two (not in my room, but it's a room I'm reasonably familiar with with speakers I know very well) and didn't notice a significant difference. So there's theory and there's each person's experience.  |
|
|
|
Post by DavidR on Apr 9, 2015 0:14:37 GMT -5
None of my source components have balanced outputs. All RCA.
I was planning on using XLR cables between the pre and amp.
Good info.
thanx
|
|
|
|
Post by garbulky on Apr 9, 2015 0:32:13 GMT -5
None of my source components have balanced outputs. All RCA. I was planning on using XLR cables between the pre and amp. Good info. thanx Gotcha. Now you can still use RCA and the XSP-1 will route the signal appropriately. You will not experience a degradation of sound. But you won't be going fully balanced. Schiit audio has a fully balanced DAC for a reasonable price - it's called the gungnir schiit.com/products/gungnirThere are several fully balanced dacs out there. But keep in mind there are single ended dacs that can outperform fully balanced dacs. So fully balanced dacs doesn't automatically mean that it's better than RCA DAC's. |
|
|
|
Post by DavidR on Apr 9, 2015 16:06:50 GMT -5
Like I want to put a piece of gear in my rack called Schiit. ROFLMAO
So, is it a waste of money to use balanced interconnects between the pre and amp if I won't be having any source inputs using a balanced connector?
|
|
|
|
Post by garbulky on Apr 9, 2015 17:03:24 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by DavidR on Apr 9, 2015 21:31:18 GMT -5
Perhaps I should consider the XPA-1L ?
Anyone know the SQ differences between the XPA-1L and the SA-250?
I believe Lonnie said the SA-250 was their best sounding amp.
|
|
|
|
Post by garbulky on Apr 10, 2015 1:03:44 GMT -5
It's hard to say. They are both good amps in their own way. The real competition imo is the XPA-1 gen 2's (and gen 1's) with their massive transformers. The XPA-1 L on the other hand has a 300 or 400 VA transformer vs the 1200 VA transformer of the XPA-1 monoblocks. Does that make a difference? I got no clue. WHen I heard the XPA-1 L in class A mode and fully balanced I didn't hear a huge difference vs regular mode. It still sounded very nice If you want something to handle your big low impedance speakers go for XPA-1's. They've got guts and then some But so does your current amp! |
|
|
|
Post by DavidR on Apr 10, 2015 8:56:48 GMT -5
Thanks for your thoughts.
I'll call Emotiva and see what they can tell me.
I won't be buying 2 Beasts. I'd like to but its not in the pictures.
|
|
|
|
Post by seppo on May 6, 2015 20:57:17 GMT -5
As hemster mentioned, that is correct. The SA-250 isn't fully balanced in the way it needs to be to enjoy the full benefits. To enjoy the full (theoretical) benefits of balanced architecture you would want to pair it with either an XPA-1 L (gen 1 or gen 2), XPA-1 gen 1 (or gen 2), XPR-1. Now...something to keep in mind...is that your original analog source (like your CD players analog out or your DAC's analog out) needs to be FULLY BALANCED too. Just because the CD player has XLR outputs or your DAC has XLR outputs does not mean that it is fully balanced. Now note that you can have a digital signal that is also fully balanced (AES XLR output) but it is not necessary for the digital signal to be fully balanced to keep the signal fully balanced. Only the analog outputs, pre-amp, and amp. Having said all that....I have heard the two (not in my room, but it's a room I'm reasonably familiar with with speakers I know very well) and didn't notice a significant difference. So there's theory and there's each person's experience. I just noticed that my SA-250 has balanced inputs in the back and that the specs say: "Combination 1/4” and XLR balanced inputs provide compatibility with a wide variety of audiophile interconnects and standard studio connections." emotiva.com/products/amplifiers/sa-250I am complete novice on this balanced business, so how does the above differ from "SA-250...isn't fully balanced in the way it needs to be to enjoy the full benefits..." as you mention above? |
|
|
|
Post by garbulky on May 6, 2015 21:56:51 GMT -5
As hemster mentioned, that is correct. The SA-250 isn't fully balanced in the way it needs to be to enjoy the full benefits. To enjoy the full (theoretical) benefits of balanced architecture you would want to pair it with either an XPA-1 L (gen 1 or gen 2), XPA-1 gen 1 (or gen 2), XPR-1. Now...something to keep in mind...is that your original analog source (like your CD players analog out or your DAC's analog out) needs to be FULLY BALANCED too. Just because the CD player has XLR outputs or your DAC has XLR outputs does not mean that it is fully balanced. Now note that you can have a digital signal that is also fully balanced (AES XLR output) but it is not necessary for the digital signal to be fully balanced to keep the signal fully balanced. Only the analog outputs, pre-amp, and amp. Having said all that....I have heard the two (not in my room, but it's a room I'm reasonably familiar with with speakers I know very well) and didn't notice a significant difference. So there's theory and there's each person's experience. I just noticed that my SA-250 has balanced inputs in the back and that the specs say: "Combination 1/4” and XLR balanced inputs provide compatibility with a wide variety of audiophile interconnects and standard studio connections." emotiva.com/products/amplifiers/sa-250I am complete novice on this balanced business, so how does the above differ from "SA-250...isn't fully balanced in the way it needs to be to enjoy the full benefits..." as you mention above? Well I'll try to explain my understanding but understand that I'll be butchering the real technicalities. The SA-250 has XLR inputs. But it's not " fully balanced". Most amps with XLR inputs are not fully balanced. To be fully balanced, basically the signal is produced twice out of phase or something like it. Then at the end of the circuit near the output it is recombined. So the hope is that any distortions picked up along the way that wasn't part of the signal is cancelled out when it is recombined due to it being out of phase. So why you would wnat that is ....TECHNICALLY (though not necessarily audibly) with a fully balanced signal path from the DAC to the pre-amp to the amp, means that the entire way those certain distortions that are picked up in an amp are cancelled out. Not all distortion but a certain amount of it. What makes this rare is that it is expensive, takes more parts as it has to create two signals - I think. So right now, the XPA-1 L, XPA-1 and XPR-1 are fully balanced. In Emotiva terms they call this "quad-differential". You'll also see the words "differential reference". All the others that have XLR inputs are not fully balanced in THAT way. These include the XPA-100, XPA-2, XPA-3, XPA-5, SA-250. It should be worth mentioning that other than ATI amps which at least a few are balanced, Emotiva is the cheapest game in town with fully balanced circuitry at the power levels it can produce. And that's because it is expensive to do this. N ow the SA-250 is dual differential like almost all the emo amps. Dual differential from what I gather that it is differential at the inputs only, but the XPA-1 for example is quad -differential and is differential from the input all the way through the output. Having said all that....is it audible? I couldn't tell you. From what I hear around the forums is that in general it's not audible or not VERY audible. |
|
KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 9,938
|
Post by KeithL on May 6, 2015 22:38:03 GMT -5
I'm going to avoid going into the in-depth explanations, but I will set straight one very common misunderstanding.... A "balanced connection" is NOT the same thing as a "balanced component". The purpose of a balanced CONNECTION is to get signal from one component to another without picking up any noise or interference along the way. The way a balanced connection achieves this is by using two separate signals, a regular one, and one that is an exact inverted copy of it. At the other end we subtract the inverted signal from the uninverted one and end up with the original signal - boosted by a factor of two. So far no big deal. However, as it so happens, any noise that gets into the wire from outside will probably be about equal in both lines. And, when we subtract the signals at the other end, while the legitimate signals will add together, the noise signals will be subtracted and so will cancel out - usually almost completely. This is why balanced connections are so very immune to picking up hum. In a balanced COMPONENT there are two equal and out of phase signal paths; in a balanced amplifier there really are two amplifiers - instead of an amplifier and a ground you have a +amplifier and a -amplifier, and, as someone already said, the idea is that a lot of th distortion in those amplifiers will be similar for both, and so will cancel out. Likewise, in a "balanced preamp" there will be two separate signal paths, one for +signal and one for -signal, and the distortion in each should cancel out. (I should also comment that a lot of these benefits are theoretical. If you look at the specs on our amps, you'll see that the distortion numbers are so low that the actual details aren't especially significant. Although the actual types of distortion you get with balanced and unbalanced amps are different, and may even sound audibly different if you can hear them to begin with, that only counts if there's an audible amount of distortion there at all. I'm honestly not convinced that anyone can hear 0.01% of ANY kind of distortion.... let alone care what flavor it is... ) Now, here's how they go together. You can have a balanced connection between ANY two pieces of equipment. Even if neither piece of equipment is balanced, you can still use a balanced connection to connect them, and it will be more immune to hum and noise than an unbalanced connection. (The circuitry it takes to convert between balanced and unbalanced connection is trivial.) Likewise, you can have an unbalanced connection between any two components. You could connect a balanced preamp and a balanced power amp using an unbalanced cable. It would probably work just fine for most people, although a few of the folks who do so may be unlucky and find that they get a little hum. However, in order to have a "fully balanced system", you need balanced components, and they need to be connected together with balanced connections. (Just to be clear, balanced connections are usually "theoretically technically better" than unbalanced connections, but that isn't a guarantee that a given balanced connection will work than a given unbalanced connection. And, while some people may hear audible differences between the different types of connections between specific equipment, you may or may not hear any difference at all in a given situation. About the most I would say would be that, if there was a difference between a balanced and unbalanced connection in a specific situation, I'm quite sure it would be the balanced connection that worked better - because it has better noise immunity, and no real down-side, other than needing an extra wire and a few extra parts.) As hemster mentioned, that is correct. The SA-250 isn't fully balanced in the way it needs to be to enjoy the full benefits. To enjoy the full (theoretical) benefits of balanced architecture you would want to pair it with either an XPA-1 L (gen 1 or gen 2), XPA-1 gen 1 (or gen 2), XPR-1. Now...something to keep in mind...is that your original analog source (like your CD players analog out or your DAC's analog out) needs to be FULLY BALANCED too. Just because the CD player has XLR outputs or your DAC has XLR outputs does not mean that it is fully balanced. Now note that you can have a digital signal that is also fully balanced (AES XLR output) but it is not necessary for the digital signal to be fully balanced to keep the signal fully balanced. Only the analog outputs, pre-amp, and amp. Having said all that....I have heard the two (not in my room, but it's a room I'm reasonably familiar with with speakers I know very well) and didn't notice a significant difference. So there's theory and there's each person's experience. I just noticed that my SA-250 has balanced inputs in the back and that the specs say: "Combination 1/4” and XLR balanced inputs provide compatibility with a wide variety of audiophile interconnects and standard studio connections." emotiva.com/products/amplifiers/sa-250I am complete novice on this balanced business, so how does the above differ from "SA-250...isn't fully balanced in the way it needs to be to enjoy the full benefits..." as you mention above? |
|
|
|
Post by garbulky on May 7, 2015 2:17:19 GMT -5
@keithl : Very nice explanation. Would I be correct in assuming that on an XPA-1 L with two amp blades, each of the blades is performing one phase of the signal? Also...do you know if the DC-1 is a balanced component in the same way?
|
|
KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 9,938
|
Post by KeithL on May 7, 2015 9:47:37 GMT -5
For the XPA-1l... yes. When you're talking about an analog component, it makes sense to talk about accepting two identical but out of phase signals as inputs, amplifying them separately, and passing them on the same way. We don't generally talk about digital signals the same way. Since the only way noise matters to a digital signal is if it is so severe that it actually prevents the signal from being decoded properly, USB and S/PDIF digital audio signals themselves are not transmitted as balanced signals (there's no point in cancelling out any stray noise since it is ignored anyway). The exception is AES/EBU, which is expected to work over long distances in noisy environments, and so is sent as a balanced connection - and, even then, it's treated as an unbalanced signal being sent over a balanced connection. However, once the digital input reaches the DAC in the DC-1, it is converted into two fully differential out-of-phase signals, which are then amplified and output separately, and any distortions common to both will cancel out, so, from the analog side of things, the DC-1 is indeed a "fully differential, fully balanced" audio component. (The analog input on the DC-1 is unbalanced - so we can't say that the signal path from that input is fully balanced  ; when you select it, the unbalanced analog input signal is converted to a balanced signal before being sent out of the balanced output.) @keithl : Very nice explanation. Would I be correct in assuming that on an XPA-1 L with two amp blades, each of the blades is performing one phase of the signal? Also...do you know if the DC-1 is a balanced component in the same way? |
|
; when you select it, the unbalanced analog input signal is converted to a balanced signal before being sent out of the balanced output.)