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Post by ttocs on Jul 3, 2015 16:14:23 GMT -5
My Martin Logan stat panels can dip to 1.2 ohms, and, I'm wondering what all the hoopla is all about with monoblock amps ?? So the question is, which Emotiva monoblock amp is the best match for my electrostatic panels? And, "let me be perfectly clear" (as Tricky Richard Nixon used to say (the auto-bleeper wouldn't let me use his nickname)), I'm only asking about matching to the stat panels because the cone woofers are easy enough to drive so I'm not worried about those. I am a big fan of biamping (passive) my speakers, so I would be need 4 monoblocks. Most of the amp specs say that 4 ohms is the minimum.
I'm very, very happy with my Krell (I got it before I found out that Emotiva existed), but my OCD won't let me stop asking myself this question. I now wait for assistance from those with greater knowledge.
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Post by Gary Cook on Jul 3, 2015 17:16:10 GMT -5
My view would be that any of the Emotive monoblocks would work just fine at a nominal 4 ohms, the 1.2 ohms at 20khz is not an issue. So the question is really how much do you want to spend on the monoblocks? Keeping in mind that an upgrade of electrical power may be required at the upper levels of amp.
Cheers Gary
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Post by garbulky on Jul 3, 2015 18:29:39 GMT -5
Gary is right. An XPA-2, XPA-1 L : (which I've heard with a ML Aerius sounded great), an XPA-1 or XPR-2/1 all are stable to 2 ohms. And the 1.2 ohm thing isn't a huge issue.
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Post by boomzilla on Jul 3, 2015 18:48:49 GMT -5
Which Emotiva mono block? It depends on several things:
1. How large is your room? 2. How loudly do you want the system to play? 3. How much do you want to spend?
If your room is large, your volumes are high, and your budget is ample, the XPR-1 mono blocks will be best (but you'll need to run new 20-ampere breakers & wiring to feed them).
If your room is large, your volumes are slightly less, and your budget slightly less ample, the XPA-1s are the ticket.
If your room is less than cathedral sized, your volumes are sane, and you want a bargain, the XPA-1Ls are very, very hard to beat.
For your speakers, I'd be reluctant to buy anything less than the 1Ls because of that low impedance, but I'm probably being over-conservative.
Your existing Krell is a well-reviewed amp. Why do you want to change?
Happy shopping!
Boomzilla
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novisnick
EmoPhile
CEO Secret Monoblock Society
Posts: 27,223
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Post by novisnick on Jul 3, 2015 19:08:37 GMT -5
Which Emotiva mono block? It depends on several things: 1. How large is your room? 2. How loudly do you want the system to play? 3. How much do you want to spend? If your room is large, your volumes are high, and your budget is ample, the XPR-1 mono blocks will be best (but you'll need to run new 20-ampere breakers & wiring to feed them). If your room is large, your volumes are slightly less, and your budget slightly less ample, the XPA-1s are the ticket. If your room is less than cathedral sized, your volumes are sane, and you want a bargain, the XPA-1Ls are very, very hard to beat. For your speakers, I'd be reluctant to buy anything less than the 1Ls because of that low impedance, but I'm probably being over-conservative. Your existing Krell is a well-reviewed amp. Why do you want to change? Happy shopping! Boomzilla I agree with everything you say boom!,,,,,,except one thing!, You do NOT have to 20 Amp breakers and new wiring to run a set of XPR-1s (fact)! You only need dedicated 20 amp lines if you are running tests to determine the maximum output of these amps, I'm not sure any speaker would require that to be a necessity!
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Post by Porscheguy on Jul 3, 2015 20:09:38 GMT -5
I just love these questions that have no right answer...
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Post by ttocs on Jul 3, 2015 20:30:53 GMT -5
My view would be that any of the Emotive monoblocks would work just fine at a nominal 4 ohms, the 1.2 ohms at 20khz is not an issue. So the question is really how much do you want to spend on the monoblocks? Keeping in mind that an upgrade of electrical power may be required at the upper levels of amp. Cheers Gary Thanks for your input. No prob on the electric. Cost is secondary to getting the right equipment.
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Post by ttocs on Jul 3, 2015 20:32:06 GMT -5
Gary is right. An XPA-2, XPA-1 L : (which I've heard with a ML Aerius sounded great), an XPA-1 or XPR-2/1 all are stable to 2 ohms. And the 1.2 ohm thing isn't a huge issue. Good to know. Thanks.
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Post by garbulky on Jul 3, 2015 20:41:22 GMT -5
Having said that, thanks to boomzilla, I just realized you DO have a Krell... not sure how much improvement you're going to see. If you do want to see a reasonable improvement spend the most you can. XPA-1 or XPR-1's. You can also buy a pair of used XPA-1 gen 1's for an incredible price now....about $1000 to 1100 for a pair! Check the emporium they pop up every now and again. (They also have 10 watts of class A power).
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Post by Gary Cook on Jul 3, 2015 20:42:19 GMT -5
I just love these questions that have no right answer... I love these questions were every answer is right. Cheers Gary
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Post by Porscheguy on Jul 3, 2015 20:45:06 GMT -5
I just love these questions that have no right answer... I love these questions were every answer is right. Cheers Gary You are indeed correct. Glass half empty of half full? Semantics...
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Post by Gary Cook on Jul 3, 2015 20:54:04 GMT -5
Thanks for your input. No prob on the electric. Cost is secondary to getting the right equipment. Electrostatics like a fair bit of grunt, actually control is a better description, so my suggestion would be a pair of XPA-1's or XPR-1's. The XPR-1's obviously have the most outright power, but personally I like the idea of running your ML's with the 60 watts of Class A from the XPA-1's for intimate listening. A high damping factor for that control plus in Class AB they have more than enough watts. Cheers Gary
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Post by ttocs on Jul 3, 2015 21:46:23 GMT -5
Which Emotiva mono block? It depends on several things: 1. How large is your room? 2. How loudly do you want the system to play? 3. How much do you want to spend? If your room is large, your volumes are high, and your budget is ample, the XPR-1 mono blocks will be best (but you'll need to run new 20-ampere breakers & wiring to feed them). If your room is large, your volumes are slightly less, and your budget slightly less ample, the XPA-1s are the ticket. If your room is less than cathedral sized, your volumes are sane, and you want a bargain, the XPA-1Ls are very, very hard to beat. For your speakers, I'd be reluctant to buy anything less than the 1Ls because of that low impedance, but I'm probably being over-conservative. Your existing Krell is a well-reviewed amp. Why do you want to change? Happy shopping! Boomzilla Thanks Boomzilla.
1. 13' x 23' plus the "L" 10' x 10' with a 9'+ ceiling. So, about 3600 cu. ft. 2. I usually play at a volume louder than a conversation could compete with. Sometimes louder, but not like when I was young and indestructible. 3. Under $10k.
Regarding the Krell, again, I'm very happy with it. I keep reading about the wonders "that can only be had with a monoblock" and I'm curious about this. Also, I'm gonna be in the market for ML Summits (or their equivalent) in a couple years and I read that they like a bit more power than my current amp has - for that extra "airy" experience. And the reason for wanting larger speakers is that I'm planning on bumping out the front of my house by another 8', so . . .
A consideration for only getting two mono's is that the Summits only need one amp each because the woofer is powered. So in reality I would only need two for future usage, but my question is an attempt to keep the conversation on track with my current needs in mind.
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Post by ttocs on Jul 3, 2015 21:50:05 GMT -5
Thanks for your input. No prob on the electric. Cost is secondary to getting the right equipment. Electrostatics like a fair bit of grunt, actually control is a better description, so my suggestion would be a pair of XPA-1's or XPR-1's. The XPR-1's obviously have the most outright power, but personally I like the idea of running your ML's with the 60 watts of Class A from the XPA-1's for intimate listening. A high damping factor for that control plus in Class AB they have more than enough watts. Cheers Gary Good point.
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Post by ttocs on Jul 3, 2015 22:13:02 GMT -5
I agree with everything you say boom!,,,,,,except one thing!, You do NOT have to 20 Amp breakers and new wiring to run a set of XPR-1s (fact)! You only need dedicated 20 amp lines if you are running tests to determine the maximum output of these amps, I'm not sure any speaker would require that to be a necessity! This is true that 20A dedicated circuits are not required to run the Emo amps that have the 20A plug on them. Big Dan has stated this previously that the reason for the 20A plug was for certification, I believe in Europe. That being said, I actually "do" like the idea of keeping amps separated from the rest of the equipment. I'd be ok with running two amps on one 20A circuit, which would still allow for quite a bit of headroom of Current (Amperage).
When I bought my house a couple years ago, I had the basement gutted before I moved in and everything is easy to get at until I rebuild the basement - possibly a dedicated theater, maybe. I build houses for a living so adding a few circuits is not complicated for me, especially with my small house.
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Post by Gary Cook on Jul 4, 2015 2:12:19 GMT -5
I don't think it's for Europe, they have different plug style than the U.S. Plus they mostly run 220/240 volts with 10 or 15 amp circuits like Australia so no need for 20 amp circuits. One 240 volt 15 amp circuit runs all my audio gear just fine.
Cheers Gary
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Post by boomzilla on Jul 4, 2015 4:03:57 GMT -5
Let me try to cut to the core of the question, ttocs - What's the difference between a pair of mono block amplifiers and a stereo amplifier of good separation? Ultimately, fairly little. The mono block pair will have less inter-channel cross talk (but the stereo amp was already probably inaudible) and, perhaps more importantly, the mono block pair will (typically, but not always) have a heftier power supply. The latter is important due to the fact that when musical peaks occur, the single power supply of a stereo amplifier must deliver lots of wattage simultaneously to both channels. Delivering clean, peak DC wattage to the output devices is neither cheap nor simple The power supply must be fast enough to go from idle to peak output instantly (the transformer, capacitors, and regulators must all be designed to do this) AND the output devices themselves must be capable of swinging that quickly without ringing, and despite the complex impedance of the loudspeakers & wires that they're driving. Mono blocks, having their own, independent power supplies, have a greater chance of being able to provide clean peak powers without clipping, and without the power supply rail voltage sagging. I'd also say that 2016 technology is substantially better than was the technology even a decade ago. The capacitors & regulators available today are better for their purposes than anything available previously. So I think that ANY newer amplifier will probably sound differently (and possibly better) than an older amplifier of equivalent specifications and price. Depending on the amplifier/speaker interface, there will be exceptions to this statement. So ultimately, only a test in your own listening room and with your own ears will tell. Don't be swayed by reviews, by theories, or by the opinions of others - ONLY your ears are valid guides. Does the system sound more or less like live music is the question to assess. And don't be afraid to say that "The Emperor has no clothes" if your ears tell you that a highly-touted piece of equipment doesn't perform to expectations. Fair is fair in spite of vicious naysayers who will say that you can't be right because your opinion differs from the majority of others. The best thing about this is that Emotiva (and some other companies) offer a "try it before you buy it" period. If the amplifiers don't do what you expect, or if you don't think that they're worth the price, then send them back. The shipping cost is trivial compared to keeping expensive amplifiers that you aren't happy with. The willingness to return what you aren't happy with has been my biggest hurdle in finding what I want. I was schooled to "don't take it if you don't want it." I'm slowly learning that an authorized return is actually OK. That said, there's VERY little that I've ever bought from Emotiva that I've wanted to return at all. But my specific experiences won't be yours. Try some mono blocks. As novisnick says, you probably won't be returning them! LOL Boomzilla
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Post by vneal on Jul 4, 2015 9:01:37 GMT -5
Here is another mono amp that might work in a pinch. The MC2KW monoblock amplifier is designed to exceed the demands of true lifelike playback levels, capable of delivering 2,000 watts of continuous power and 8,000 watts of peak power into 2, 4 or 8 ohm speakers.
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Post by ttocs on Jul 4, 2015 9:05:58 GMT -5
I don't think it's for Europe, they have different plug style than the U.S. Plus they mostly run 220/240 volts with 10 or 15 amp circuits like Australia so no need for 20 amp circuits. One 240 volt 15 amp circuit runs all my audio gear just fine. Cheers Gary I was wrong, it wasn't Dan, it was Lonnie that stated the following: "Several people have asked why we use the 20 amp IEC cords. Well the simple answer is that is what was required for it to pass safety certification because they test the amp at balls to the walls full power with sign waves (a condition that would never be done in real life, but that is what they do). Since it was tested and certified that way, we are obligated to ship it with the same cord.
Now the big question is do people really need a dedicated 20amp circuit and power cord? In my humble opinion, I would have to be honest and say that the vast majority of people will never draw enough current through the amp on a continuous bases (because music is all about dynamic peaks and not continuous sine waves) to even draw down a standard 15 amp circuit. I know I would never push it that hard. So if I were going to put one in my house I would probably use a a Nema 5-15P to IEC C-19 power cord. But that is just me. ;D"
Correction complete.
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Post by ttocs on Jul 4, 2015 9:07:00 GMT -5
Here is another mono amp that might work in a pinch. The MC2KW monoblock amplifier is designed to exceed the demands of true lifelike playback levels, capable of delivering 2,000 watts of continuous power and 8,000 watts of peak power into 2, 4 or 8 ohm speakers. That's purrrrrrty!
edit: Just looked up the price - $$,$$$80,000!!,!!! per pair
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