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Post by monkumonku on Jul 14, 2015 18:33:13 GMT -5
Excuse me sir, but does the fact that You don´t agree with my experiences make me att troll!? In what way am I stubborn? Is it because I don´t change my mind just because You say I´m wrong? I just don´t get it. Woah I never called you a troll. I was agreeing with your friends who said they think you are the one being referred to. As the troll. Only because what you are stating as fact is so far from every white paper on proper multichannel movie setup in the home. And you swear it's a hidden discovery and that all professional companies and installers have to be wrong To some that seems like. Troll. That's all. IMHO you are the one being referred to as the troll. (Notice I never called you a troll and still haven't) Based on the above, he never said that you called him a troll. Just like you referred to him as a troll but literally never called him one, the same goes with him, he never technically said you called him a troll but said you considered him to be one. And also.. So if a center channel is so important then why don't we have three ears (one for the middle) or three eyes (one for the middle). Or have surround TV screens and also height screens so we can not only hear surround and height sounds, but see the stuff, too? After all the way it is now, when we hear the stuff that people say is oh so real I had to check and see if there was thunder outside or someone was ringing the doorbell, etc., etc., we can see it on the screen and know it is part of what we're watching. Okay back to the fight.
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Post by garbulky on Jul 14, 2015 19:04:58 GMT -5
I think y'all need to stop piling on the poor guy. I think we got yours (and his) point. I don't think it's the end of the world that he likes movies in stereo. What's wrong with that?
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novisnick
EmoPhile
CEO Secret Monoblock Society
Posts: 27,213
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Post by novisnick on Jul 14, 2015 19:10:14 GMT -5
I think y'all need to stop piling on the poor guy. I think we got yours (and his) point. I don't think it's the end of the world that he likes movies in stereo. What's wrong with that? Not a dang thing is wrong with that. I was just watching Tron with my set of Bose Accustimass speakers in stereo! Sounded pretty dang good!!
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Post by garbulky on Jul 14, 2015 19:11:47 GMT -5
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novisnick
EmoPhile
CEO Secret Monoblock Society
Posts: 27,213
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Post by novisnick on Jul 14, 2015 19:33:48 GMT -5
My friend, I don't lie! I I do hate the fact that the Emotiva rings don't match in color!,,,,,,,,,,,, I know,,,,,,I know,,,,,,,,,,BUT, THEIR GEAR SURE SOUNDS GREAT! Edit; NO!, I'm not selling the Studio's!! Here ya go garbulky
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Post by sahmen on Jul 14, 2015 20:03:17 GMT -5
I think y'all need to stop piling on the poor guy. I think we got yours (and his) point. I don't think it's the end of the world that he likes movies in stereo. What's wrong with that? Gar: I completely agree that we should not "pile on Michael" for his preferences... Yet the only problem I see there, though, is that he has taken matters beyond personal preferences and called using a center channel speaker a "waste of money" for most people...i.e. for those who can benefit adequately or satisfactorily from a phantom center via proper "toe-in" positioning, and that is the part I am finding a bit hard to swallow. I personally am not interested in making Michael miserable for his personal tastes and preferences, or in calling him names for those... However, he is making a claim about the redundancy of center channel speakers, which, if actually or "objectively" true, might imply that I have personally been flushing loads of $$$ down the sewer by obsessing about an often expensive HT unit that I do not need -- and that is a biggie IMHO... Personally, I am more interested in getting to the bottom of the validity of thatclaim than "piling on" Michael. per se... In short, is the center channel speaker vital or not for optimal enjoyment of HT set ups, or put in another way, is it as "vital" for HT as all the experts claim it is? I personally believe it is, but if I am wrong and have been wasting money on my own units in the past couple of decades or so, I would like to know that and start spending my money on something more worthwhile.... I hope you appreciate to what extent this desire no longer has anything to do with "piling on Michael" himself, who is after all, only the "messenger" and not the message.... But is the message valid or not? Should I continue (or not) to treat my center channel as the sonic epicenter of my HT sound-field? Or would I be simply delusional if I continue to do that?
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Post by michaelg523 on Jul 15, 2015 1:11:00 GMT -5
How many movies do you own that are recorded for 5.1 speakers? 7.2 speakers? ? Neo6 Dolby Atmos? ? dSx? ? A good point! Most of my films ar in 5.1. Some are in 6.1 or 7.1. And a few are in stereo. And still I always use 9.1 (or 8.1 without the center - but don´t tell bmoney, he´ll just get so mad at me...) when I see a film.
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Post by michaelg523 on Jul 15, 2015 1:40:17 GMT -5
There is no such thing as a sweet field. Its documneted that using a phantom center while effective causes sweetspotting. Meaning slightly off axis results in poor imaging of dialog. This is why it is ideal to use a center channel. And even more ideal to use an exact soeaker as your mains for this center speaker. This results in zero compromise and the best possible sound for hime theater. Yes avrs can process center channel info to the mains Yes it will effect power needed But a big NO IT DOES NOT provide a "sweet field" so please stop saying it does. There is no such thing. And too much toe in is a terrible idea. Out. Well I don´t know if I´m using the wrong term. I understand that we can agree on "sweet spot". (The effect that when You sit right between the speakers, You experience a great sound stage, but when You lean or move to your left or right, the sound stage fall apart.) And why is this? It´s just because how the sound from the speakers reaches your ears. If You move to the left, You not only gets nearer the left speaker and futher away from the rignt one, the sound from the left speaker also reaches your ear more directly - more on-axis - while the sound from the right speaker reaches You even more off-axis than before. That´s why You - if you sit directly in front of one speaker - don´s have any sound stage at all. You´ll just here that speaker You sit in front of. Does a center speaker fix this? Yes and no! The center speaker makes it good for the sound in the center channel. But the sound from the front channels will still give you a poor sound stage when You don´t sit in sweet spot! While toeing-in as I suggest (so You just barely can see the outside of each speaker when You sit in "sweet spot") gives You something else. Now, when You lean - or move - to the left, You still gets nearer the left speaker and further away from the right speaker, BUT in the same time the sound from the left speaker reaches You MORE OFF-AXIS and the sound from the right speaker reaches You MORE ON-AXIS. The speakers angle compensates for the increasing/decreasing distance. This gives You an acceptable sound stage even if You´re sitting right in front of one of the speakers. Even if You sit "outside" the speaker. This effect is known to me as "sweet field". If that term isn´t correct, then what do You call it? Or is it perhaps so that You have never experiensed this? Lucky You! You really has something to looking forward to.
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Post by Gary Cook on Jul 15, 2015 1:44:39 GMT -5
Personally my ears listening to my speakers in my room need a centre speaker. Toeing in of the FL and FR just shrinks the sound stage, such that widely dispersed sound effects and dialogue collapse inwards giving a much reduced spacial experience. This applies to movies, 5.1 in my case.
Plus I also use the FL and FR for stereo 2.1 music and toeing in is not something that I would remotely consider.
Cheers Gary
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Post by michaelg523 on Jul 15, 2015 2:34:04 GMT -5
monkumonku; Good points. Listen to reproduced sound really can blow Your mind away in it´s realism. But there is a problem with sound stage when You have a sweet spot (for the people not sitting there). A center can fix it up to a degree. A well toeing-in of the front speakers do the rest. (And can even make the center speaker needless.)
garbulky; Thank´s for coming for my rescue. But I´m quite used that some people gets mad, or try to make fun of me when they feel provoked but lack real arguments. This is just a defense mechanism. Their loss really and not mine.
sahmen; Very good Points! Maybe I shouldn´t call using a center "waste of money" while this could provoke some people. Sorry for that!
In fact - some people that toe-in the front speakers as I suggest, still uses their front speakers. I´ve asked why and the reasons vary: "because I have it" "I still think it handles center info better" "I need all headroom I can get". And for some people the center speaker gets redundent. This is typically for people who haven´t invested a lot in the center speaker/amp already.
Not in my wildest Dreams I could anticipate the feelings this matter would cause. I had absolutely no intention of this and I am sorry for some of my wordings.
So where are we now? The facts;
- Some receivers can direct the center info to the main speakers. If You do that, there are less demands on the center speaker and it´s powering. - If your speaker is toed-in less than about 45 degrees, You have a sweet spot outside which the sound stage fall apart. The less angle, the quicker it falls. - A center speaker just manages the center channel info. It does not fix the sound stage falling apart according to the front speakers! But it sure helps. - If You toe-in your fronts just above 45 degrees (so You just barely can see the outside of the speakers sitting in sweet spot) it will get You a good - to fairly good - sound stage even if You sit right before (or even outside) one of your front speakers. - Some people feel that this make the center speaker needless, and some people don´t. - Depending on the speakers frequency respons, there are some speakers that don´t benefit from toeing-in.
I´ve really worked with the text above not to treading on anyone´s toes, or abuse anyone. Probobly I failed.
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Post by michaelg523 on Jul 15, 2015 3:26:11 GMT -5
Toeing in of the FL and FR just shrinks the sound stage, such that widely dispersed sound effects and dialogue collapse inwards giving a much reduced spacial experience. I´v heard a few reports of this but have never experienced this myself. I beleive (=not knowing) this has to do with the speakers dispersion. I´ve also heard of the same sort of speaker that performs well (in-toed) in one room, but not in another. This indicates that room acoustics play a part here.
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Post by Gary Cook on Jul 15, 2015 5:15:21 GMT -5
In my room for my ears using my speakers I set the FL and FR up to optimise the stereo 2.1 music listening. That's the most important and critical for me. No chance whatsoever that I would even remotely consider even testing relocations for 5.1 movies, never ever going to happen. Plus stereo music in movies needs to sound like stereo music.
Once I have the stereo 2.1 music positioning of the FL, FR and Sub optimised then I'll set up the C, SL and SR. PEQ as appropriate.
I can't say as I have ever found it necessary to compromise stereo music listening for movies listening, what works for 2.1 stereo works for 5.1 multichannel.
Cheers Gary
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Post by pto189 on Jul 15, 2015 5:51:09 GMT -5
While I love to read you guy's discussion, the Summer sale ends today. Please tell me the best choice for my center speaker. Thank you.
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Post by Gary Cook on Jul 15, 2015 6:01:37 GMT -5
While I love to read you guy's discussion, the Summer sale ends today. Please tell me the best choice for my center speaker. Thank you. I did it on page 1, XPA-100 and 6 pages later I still have the same opinion. Cheers Gary
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Post by pedrocols on Jul 15, 2015 8:46:28 GMT -5
Sooo how may center channel speakers are used on a real movie theater? You know, a real theater where you go and pay $15 to go see a movie.
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Post by pto189 on Jul 15, 2015 9:42:05 GMT -5
While I love to read you guy's discussion, the Summer sale ends today. Please tell me the best choice for my center speaker. Thank you. I did it on page 1, XPA-100 and 6 pages later I still have the same opinion. Cheers Gary Thank you, Gary!
According to Emotiva sale representative, XPA-100 works just fine for my center speaker spec. XPA-1L with addition class A up to 35 Watt is a better match with my XPA-1s. XPA-1 is more than enough though extra power won't hurt the speaker. I ordered the XPA-1L for $485, 50% or $160 more than the XPA-100. Setting up this way, I'll have a pair of XPA-1 for L&F Front speakers, XPA-1L for center speaker, XPA-3 and XPA-5 for current 4 surround speakers and future 4 in ceiling speakers.
I'm using the Marantz SR7007 with 7 pre-amp outputs. I believe Dolby Atmos will be the future of Home Theatre. Right now, there is no good pre/pro for Dolby Atmos except Marantz (Denon), Onkyo and Integra. People expect McIntosh will include Dolby Atmos in their flag ship MX160., and Classe, Bryston, Krell... will follow. Personally, I think Emotiva will need a very long time to catch up the market trend based on how they have been struggling with the XMC-1.
I decided to use Emotiva amps because this is emotive strength. If we A/B between Emotiva and McIntosh amps. may be Emotiva amp is a little bright while McIntosh amp is warmer and more musical details. But if we only listen to Emotiva amps, they provide plenty of clean power with a fraction of the cost of the McIntosh amps.
So far, I'm satisfied with the setup especially streaming music from Spotify --> Emo DC-1 --> XPA-1 --> Focal Electra 1038 Be II. As many have said, most movies are still in 5.1 or 7.1 format. It's worth to wait for another year or two to see what will happy with the new technology in the home theatre industry.
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novisnick
EmoPhile
CEO Secret Monoblock Society
Posts: 27,213
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Post by novisnick on Jul 15, 2015 9:57:15 GMT -5
Hello, I was your third reply, so very glad you went with the XPA-1L, it will exceed your expectations!!
Have fun and enjoy!!
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Post by pto189 on Jul 15, 2015 11:53:55 GMT -5
Yes, thank you Novisnick!
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Post by garbulky on Jul 15, 2015 12:08:58 GMT -5
Maybe it's your wording Michael. But I got to disagree with you on the 45 degree toeing in. Oh my goodness that is wayyy too much. But I may not be understanding what you meant by 45 degrees? I see it like....point the speakers straight ahead it is 0 degrees. Point them so they face each other that's 90 degrees (nobody wants that!) . Halfway between that is 45 degrees. That's much much too much imo. If your speakers need that much toeing in to get a proper soundstage then your speakers are too far apart. I think right amount of toe in is one of the most important parts for good reproduction. Some speakers require just a tad, some require quite a bit, while some require almost none. Depends on the speaker. But usually at 45 degrees it's toed in so much that you get the center sound but very little stereo sound on the right and left. For isntance my speakers are toed in about 20 to 30 degrees. Not a whole lot more. Basically if I look at the left tweeter from where I'm sitting, and draw an imgainary line straight where it's pointing, it will go past the outside of my left side of my head. Not by a lot but missing my head by just a little. If you draw to lines from the left and right tweeter they usually meet at a point behind my head about two feet (or greater). For instance this amount of toe in Is usually way too much.
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Post by michaelg523 on Jul 16, 2015 2:21:17 GMT -5
garbulky; You understood me quite right. But of course the amount of degrees depends on how far from the speakers You sit. The importent thing isn´t the exact degree of angle, the thing is that You toe-in the speakers so that they vill point directly to You, and then some. You´ll just barely see the otsides of the speakers (the left side of the left speaker, and the right side of the right speaker) when sitting in sweet spot.
When I first heard of this some years ago, I thought it sounded quite odd. Previously I´ve only heard/read that the speakers could point directly forward (0 degrees) but mostly would benefit from some toeing-in. But the advise was free, and only costed me a few seconds of turning the speakers, and then some time of experimenting and evaluating till I reached the conclusion; I retained the good sound stage in sweet spot AND received an acceptable sound stage even far left or right from sweet spot. The sweet spot had transformed into a sweet field! (This is because You´re not just listening to one speaker any longer. The strong angle compensates for the divergent distances to the speakers when sitting in front of one of them.)
Later I´ve learned that this isn´t always the case. Well - you get the "sweet field" but you might in some cases also lose quality in sound stage in sweet spot. If the speakers are close to the wall, a strong toeing-in can contribute to destructive reflexes, which could have a negative impact on the sound stage. But if the speakers are standing away from the wall and/or the wall has beed acousticly treated in some way (drapery, etc.) there is a good chance that the toeing-in only will give benefits and no shortcomings.
A bonus effect is that the sweet field also diminish the nead of a center speaker when looking at movies.
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