|
|
Post by db350ztrack on Sept 21, 2015 20:08:37 GMT -5
I purchased a pair of Martin Logan Theos speakers which I'm told are power hungry speakers. I've always just used my Pioneer's SC-85 internal amp but knew these Theos speakers would be too much for my receiver alone.
I went ahead and purchased 2 XPA-100 amplifiers during the Labor day sale. I have a XPA-100 hooked up to each speaker and running now for about 10 days but feel the sound doesn't have much dynamics and is really non musical. I've been reading non stop for days and feel like these amps just can't produce the good dynamic powerful sound i'm aiming for with these speakers.
I've never ran external amps before or owned high end speakers for that matter so this is my first time and I just feel like I should have purchased a more powerful amp or amps based on what I'm reading.
I have each XPA-100 amp fed with a single RCA cable from the Pioneer SC-85 in 2ch mode and Pure Direct selected which just bypasses the receivers EQ etc.
After reading all the reviews of different amps XPA-1, XPA-2, XPR-2 and XPA-1L I could find from this website to Amazon and google search I'm lost.
|
|
|
|
Post by lehighvalleyjeff on Sept 21, 2015 20:55:39 GMT -5
I purchased a pair of Martin Logan Theos speakers which I'm told are power hungry speakers. I've always just used my Pioneer's SC-85 internal amp but knew these Theos speakers would be too much for my receiver alone. I went ahead and purchased 2 XPA-100 amplifiers during the Labor day sale. I have a XPA-100 hooked up to each speaker and running now for about 10 days but feel the sound doesn't have much dynamics and is really non musical. I've been reading non stop for days and feel like these amps just can't produce the good dynamic powerful sound i'm aiming for with these speakers. I've never ran external amps before or owned high end speakers for that matter so this is my first time and I just feel like I should have purchased a more powerful amp or amps based on what I'm reading. I have each XPA-100 amp fed with a single RCA cable from the Pioneer SC-85 in 2ch mode and Pure Direct selected which just bypasses the receivers EQ etc. After reading all the reviews of different amps XPA-1, XPA-2, XPR-2 and XPA-1L I could find from this website to Amazon and google search I'm lost. Welcome to the lounge! You have come to the right place. The Martin Logan Theos speakers are kind of power hungry and I think you were thinking correctly with going with external amplifiers as the amp in the Elite SC-85 will not be enough to drive them. Here are a few suggestions: Try a more powerful amplifier like the xpa-2 which is a stereo amp but it has a lot more headroom and should very competently drive your Theos speakers. It will have a lot more headroom than your XPA-100's. If you want to go with a more aggressive option the XPA-1 Monoblocks (you need two) will have much more headroom and authoritive bass than an XPA-2. The XPA will operate in true class A for the first 60 watts which should also (in theory) give you better sound. Having the extra power is not all about listening at loud volumes but more about the db difference between a whisper and the smashing of a bass drum. The Monoblocks are an awesome option. Third is the reference line XPR-2 where the company went all out with over engineering and overbuilding these amplifiers to compete with amplifiers much more expensive with more power, better internals and power supplies, etc. Although the XPR-2 is a stereo amplifier it has 600 watts @ 8 ohms and 1000 watts @ 4 ohms. Emotiva has recently discontinued its reference line so finding this amp may be a challenge. Class h design. Finally, the option I went with is two XPR-1 Monoblocks which I highly recommend. It's also a class h design and offers 1,000 watts @ 8 ohms and 1,750 watts at 4 ohms. The sound I get from them is breathtaking and I can only say that I'm extremely happy with them. All of the R series (XPR) amplifiers require a 20 amp line installed. Of these I don't think any of the options will leave you unhappy with your Theos speakers. They are gorgeous and when powered properly they are absolutely magical. I can imagine that you will really enjoy music coming from them once you choose a good amplifier for them. |
|
|
|
Post by wiskers on Sept 21, 2015 22:20:19 GMT -5
Those are 4 ohm speakers and the XPA100 puts out 400 watts at 4 ohms. The company says they can be powered with an amp from 20 to 400 watts. You have plenty of power. I would try to adjust their position from the wall.
|
|
|
|
Post by garbulky on Sept 21, 2015 22:31:28 GMT -5
Hi there! Martin Logan speakers are sensitive to placement. You need to really experiment with them. This alone can give you the impression of a poor sound.
Also Emotiva's power amps can give you the impression of much more powerful sound with a dedicated analog standalone PREAMPLIFIER in the mix. Not one of those integrated units. A standalone one. There is a nice pre amplifier on sale on the emporium called the USP-1 which is being sold for a song in the $200 ish range. The XSP-1 is also a fantastic preamp which is better. But not a 3 times better improvement.
The preamp paired with Emotiva amps and demanding speakers to me stabilizes the sound. Prevents thinning out, dynamioc wimping out on sudden loud noises etc. There is also a more solid bass. Just overall a more stable almost more powerful sound.
Having said that, yes the ML speakers do better with more beefy amps. My suggestion is buying two XPA-1 gen 1 used amps from the emporium. That will provide you the biggest bang for the buck. The next more robust amp is the XPA-2. XPA-1 L and XPA-2 are about the same in terms of real life percieved performance power.
But don't discount the standalone preamp. It will help drive those power amps. If you think dynamics or power is missing I am inclined to point the finger at the need for a preamp more than the amp. You can try the USP-1 brand new for 30 days to see if that does make a difference for free using the trial. It weighs so little you'll be out about 30 bucks to ship it back. Not a bad amount to know if you made the right decision or not.
Or the importance of speaker positioning. The ML I tried changed character with every speaker positioning.
Having said all that...electrostatic speakers and things like power and dynamics...not their strong suit....
|
|
|
|
Post by dally on Sept 21, 2015 22:43:56 GMT -5
I agree with garbulky. Sometimes the preamp makes more of a difference than the amps. Garbage in garbage out. Also, consider your source. Compressed MP3 files tend to have a flat un-dynamic sound. Again, garbage in garbage out.
|
|
|
|
Post by AudioHTIT on Sept 21, 2015 22:44:10 GMT -5
... You can try the USP-1 brand new for 30 days to see if that does make a difference for free using the trial. It weighs so little you'll be out about 30 bucks to ship it back. Not a bad amount to know if you made the right decision or not. ... I agreed with your whole post except ... no more trials on USP-1's, just the Emporium. Did you mean XSP-1 like you mentioned above? |
|
|
|
Post by garbulky on Sept 21, 2015 22:49:02 GMT -5
... You can try the USP-1 brand new for 30 days to see if that does make a difference for free using the trial. It weighs so little you'll be out about 30 bucks to ship it back. Not a bad amount to know if you made the right decision or not. ... I agreed with your whole post except ... no more trials on USP-1's, just the Emporium. Did you mean XSP-1 like you mentioned above? Oh oops. didn't realize usp-1 was mia! I guess the xsp-1 would work but I can see somebody hesitating on it despite the trial due to price tag. My mistake! |
|
|
|
Post by leonski on Sept 22, 2015 15:32:24 GMT -5
The Theo is a 90db sensitive speaker. Not at all 'power hungry' with ONE major proviso. How bad a load is it? At higher frequencies I suspect typical high reactance which cuts into amp power. But you don't NEED much power at above say 8khz or 10khz, anyway.
They are also able to be BIAMPED without difficulty, having 2x sets of binding posts. The crossover of 425hz is so close to the 50:50 point of necessary amp power as to be funny.
In MY room, I suspect I wouldn't need more than 100 to 200 4ohm watts of GOOD quality. My very INsensitive panels have about 400 watts per speaker in a biamp setup.
Others have made suggestions:
New preamp? Not a bad, longer term idea. Something like the Parasound P5 should be looked at. It has extensive bass management features, good phono AND 3x digitial inputs.
Bamp? Also a neat idea. 4x 1L amps? A LOT of power which you'll never use, but the amps will run relaxed even when you are destroying the speakers
NOW: SETUP is as someone noted, absolutely keY. pull 'em out from the wall to 3 or 4 feet or even 5 if you can manage. Experiment with TOE. If possible, keep 'em 3feet from edge wall.
ROOM treatments may help. Diffusion behind the speakers should help. Corner bass traps, too.
Expensive / good speakers in a crumby room will STILL sound bad. Decent speakers in a good room? MUCHO better.
Please post back some results if you experiment. ONE thing at a time!
|
|
|
|
Post by Bonzo on Sept 22, 2015 15:47:01 GMT -5
NOW: SETUP is as someone noted, absolutely keY. pull 'em out from the wall to 3 or 4 feet or even 5 if you can manage. Experiment with TOE. If possible, keep 'em 3feet from edge wall. +1 Yep. If the OP can't do this with these speakers in his room, then I'm afraid the wrong speakers were purchased. ML's can not be placed close to any wall and sound their best, especially the wall behind them. They are also very "beemy" speakers that have a very narrow sweet spot. On a 3 seat couch, the 2 side seats will sound different than the center sweet spot. |
|
|
|
Post by highfihoney on Sept 22, 2015 16:00:36 GMT -5
I purchased a pair of Martin Logan Theos speakers which I'm told are power hungry speakers. I've always just used my Pioneer's SC-85 internal amp but knew these Theos speakers would be too much for my receiver alone. I went ahead and purchased 2 XPA-100 amplifiers during the Labor day sale. I have a XPA-100 hooked up to each speaker and running now for about 10 days but feel the sound doesn't have much dynamics and is really non musical. I've been reading non stop for days and feel like these amps just can't produce the good dynamic powerful sound i'm aiming for with these speakers. I've never ran external amps before or owned high end speakers for that matter so this is my first time and I just feel like I should have purchased a more powerful amp or amps based on what I'm reading. I have each XPA-100 amp fed with a single RCA cable from the Pioneer SC-85 in 2ch mode and Pure Direct selected which just bypasses the receivers EQ etc. After reading all the reviews of different amps XPA-1, XPA-2, XPR-2 and XPA-1L I could find from this website to Amazon and google search I'm lost. With Logans in your system it is possible your speakers are asking way too much from your Emotiva amps , ML's are rated at 4 ohms but quite a few of their models dip way below 2 ohms , something Emo amps are not even rated at so amp mismatch could be an issue but since you have the amps allready work with your AVR settings , i read where you bypassed the internal eq & opted for a flat setting in 2 channel mode , flat or " pure " as its called in audiophile nonsense talk is not allways better sound , try some different eq settings in 2 channel mode & see if it improves the dynamics of the speakers before you invest in any new gear , my ears wont accept a flat 2 channel sound in any system & i have to eq the sound to my tastes . Try getting into the eq settings for 2 channel & trying all the different presets , if that dont bring about better dynamics then as recommended get a dedicated 2 channel preamp but do not buy a model without basic tone controls , you can allways leave the tone settings in neutral , flat or bypass if you dont use them but from my experience & tastes i prefer pre's with tone controls even with properly adressed room accoustics & $50,000 speaker systems , Emotiva made some great tone control preamps with the RSP-1 & RSP-2 , both discontinued but can be scored on ebay under $500 . If chosing different eq settings in 2 channel & a stand alone preamp dont give you the dynamics your missing then you need to look at high current amps that do well below the 2 ohm range . |
|
|
|
Post by leonski on Sept 22, 2015 16:30:43 GMT -5
My Parasound P5 DOES have tone controls. I leave them OFF about 90% of the time. I turn them ON only late at night and have a preset 'boost' to both bass and treble. Like an old-school 'loudness' contour which is a now-obsolete control once found on 'nearly ALL integrated amps and receivers.
Also, a boost of say 3db in the low bass, if you think that is missing will effectively DOUBLE the needed amp power in that frequency range. Be careful with EQ.
|
|
|
|
Post by highfihoney on Sept 22, 2015 18:31:49 GMT -5
My Parasound P5 DOES have tone controls. I leave them OFF about 90% of the time. I turn them ON only late at night and have a preset 'boost' to both bass and treble. Like an old-school 'loudness' contour which is a now-obsolete control once found on 'nearly ALL integrated amps and receivers. Also, a boost of say 3db in the low bass, if you think that is missing will effectively DOUBLE the needed amp power in that frequency range. Be careful with EQ. Why should he use caution using his internal eq ? Overall loudness or spl isnt what he deems lacking in sound , his amp is powerfull enough to produce the speakers max wattage so a 3db increase in low bass isnt gonna drive his amp into clipping or obscene distortion levels, or over drive his speaker so wheres the danger ? Eq'ing systems is not dangerous or problematic & saying that Loudness Contour or Tone Control is" Obosolete " on 2 channel systems is like saying the Fletcher Munson curves no longer apply to the way we hear audio & perceive what we hear , a quality manufacturer will incorporate a loudness control that disengages automatically when the volume is increased like in Yamaha & Carver preamps , or at an even higher performance level with the addition of an adjustable loudness contour that takes itself out & back in the mix as volume is raised or lowered such as how Mcintosh Loudness contour controls are designed on our Mc preamps . Obsolete on most HT systems that are allready heavily eq'd by internal settings & incorporate the use of one or more subs then i'd have to agree , in a 2 channel system with full range speakers & no subs eq's & loudness are far from obsolete . Im not trying to argue but im having a hard time understanding why caution is advised & that tone control/loudness is obsolete for 2 channel . |
|
|
|
Post by leonski on Sept 22, 2015 19:49:30 GMT -5
How MANY stereos these days come with the loudness contour? Almost Zero. Tone controlss ARE more available, no question about it. Still in the vast minority.
As for EQ? These can introduce as many problems as you think they solve. And yes, 3db is 2x the amp power IN THAT BAND. The old school '10 band graphic equalizer' is a nice idea which to my ears introduced more issues than
they maybe solved. I used a bass-only equalizer with my ported speakers. THAT helped, some, but did use lots more amp power. The speakers in question were JBL4311 copies. And had a lot in common with the JBLs. A big bass peak at the port tuning frequency with a roll off below that. trying to get rid of the bump AND boost the lows helped some but trying to get flat to say, 25hz was a little much on the amp. And as it ALSO turns out, the most common way of connecting such aftermarket EQ, the Tape Monitor loop is ALSO a historical footnote. Built into a receiver? I rest my case.
I believe the short answer is 'show me tone controls' on new gear. My Parasound P5 was bought with that being a SMALL part of the decision. As for EQ? If you mean Parametric? or the new DSP stuff which is like a digital parametric, a case could be made for room correction at a limited number of frequencies with NO broad effects. But, once again, I had a buddy who was apparently (retrospect is wonderful) sitting in a bass null. NO AMOUNT of eq / tone control / loudness / bass boost could help. The cure would have probably been to move speakers and listening location. I'm not certain that DSP would have helped.
A lot of people think that as far as EQ goes, if a little is good, a LOT is even better. Not necessarily. Approach with caution.
I'm willing to try a DSP approach with CROSSOVER to biamp my panels. I'm using the speakers crossover which works, but does NOT give me the advantages of a true biamp with either passive or active line level crossovers.
And need I remind you that speakers don't have 'watts'? Such ratings are mythical at best and misleading at worst. Calling a speaker '400 watts' is a good way to smoke it. And besides, the OPs speakers being electrostats, they aren't going to play THAT loudly, either. Try running a 400 watt 'rated' speaker at anything over 1/2 that AVERAGE and i'm sure you'll damage something besides your hearing and credibility with the neighbors. I know people who run a Kilowatt or better into Magnepans. No problems but also no running 'em to mylar slap or amp distortion. And the owner of that system RETAINS the stock fuse setup which he has not popped.
|
|
|
|
Post by highfihoney on Sept 22, 2015 21:46:23 GMT -5
A bit overkill there , if millions of users can properly calibrate 7.1 systems than it shouldn't be all that hard for them to read their manual & learn how to properly use their eq & Mic , I understand my DBX 20 band eq's perfectly , eq's don't cause problems in the system , uneducated eq users do so don't blame the gear . speaker ratings , I don't know which speakers you've smoked by overpowering them using RMS wattage ( yes watts ) but all my speaker systems can handle their rms wattage long term with zero damage or distortion all the way up to 2,000 watts @8 ohms for endless hours , IMO only an inferior speaker would smoke at half its rms if the manufacturer didn't lie about their long term rms . Tone controls , the op's AVR has tone controls , loudness built in & its as modern as they come plus it has a 9 band eq that's meant for 2 channel , if that isn't enough here's 2 new modern tube preamps I own that employ tone controls & they are top of the line .  You can see the tone controls at right in the pic above , here's another current model preamp we own with tone controls bottom left. ![]() images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/22/8d8dd3fc9a52301f26d926c0e3one controls , Loudness Contour & calibrated eq's are not out of date but just don't fit the audiophile mindset , if people can calibrate surround properly then they should have no trouble calibrating a 2 channel rig as long as they read the eq manual & don't expect prompts from the eq telling them step by step instructions but it's the same process using a mic'ed eq . |
|
|
|
Post by highfihoney on Sept 22, 2015 21:55:17 GMT -5
Don't know why the other pics didn't show up but here's more modern up to date tone control tube preamps in our 2 channel eq'd systems .  Here is another in a different 2 channel rig of ours .  |
|
|
|
Post by leonski on Sept 23, 2015 21:33:50 GMT -5
Mc has an amazing, Iconic look 2nd to none. And are maybe the LAST manufacturer to include extensive EQ in their product. My broad based tone controls are little used. DSP and stuff like REW used ONCE to 'tune' a room can have real benefits. Audyssey in HT receivers is another such system and the best of 'em are very sophisticated. I'm intentionally NOT including HT stuff what IMO is not really for SERIOUS 2ch listening, regardless of the add-on feature set. The amps will NOT drive my panels at all. I HAD a NAD Tuner Preamp with simple bass and treble EXCEPT for having 3 turnover frequencies each! Very handy for bumping the bass and treble of my original MG-1s. Again, I only turned the tone controls on late at night to make up for human hearing shortcomings at low levels. As for speaker power? Part of the problem is doubtless distortion which drives the power UP in the high frequencies. And since musical energy required in Power Percent is only about 10% of the total ABOVE say, 10Khz, you can see what the additional power in that band can do. This is why the most vulnerable drive is the tweeter. People expect a LOT and probably too much from systems not designed for redline for long time periods. The ONLY speakers I've ever damaged were the midrange drivers on some Fisher 10" 3-ways. Awful and actually sounded better after I replaced the midrange with a 10 ohm / 10 watt power resistor. I was running them WAY too loud and knew it. The OTHER thing that happens to speakers is HEAT caused by long term higher power. This changes the drivers measured performance. There are 3 'limits' to speakers: Thermal, Mechanical, Electrical. All would appear to be related to a greater or lesser extent. For example, a Dropped Stylus on your TT can result in a REAL big blast of LOW frequency and Could damage a woofer if it is up Too Loud. Thermal is operating a speaker within its power limits for perhaps too long. The FerroFluid can migrate OUT of the VC under these conditions and it'll over heat. Electrical would be something which causes high amounts of DC in the circuit. Like overdriving to clipping can do. I can't remember off-hand which parameters shift, but it does have an effect on reliability and ability to tolerate MORE power or simply for longer. Link to Elliot Sound Products article on speakers and limits: sound.westhost.com/articles/speaker-failure.htmlI'm fairly certain you didn't feed your speakers 2kilowatts, but are quoting that number to try to freak me out. I'm not impressed, but DO realize that given 'normal' musical distribution of power, you MAY have been running 200 RMS with 10db crests. That'll give you 2kw SOME of the time. I've run my Magnepans with 500x2 of 'd' amp right up to mylar slap and DIDN'T pop the 4amp mid/tweet fuse. I was probably running 50 watts RMS with 500 watt peaks. With my cheesy meter I'd see maybe 30 to 35 volt peaks, but no peak-hold function. Panels are VERY low sensitivity and probably won't play as loud as a good dynamic driver system. Try your 2kw experiment with a Test Tone from any of the available discs. On 2nd thought, please DON'T. Or better still, plug it into the wall. A 15 amp circuit will ONLY put out 1.8kw, so you should be golden. Professional / sound reinforcement speakers are MUCH better able to tolerate high powers for long time periods. But still, when I was at Cal Jam 1, we DID see multiple speakers on the towers simply 'blow'. OOOPS! |
|
|
|
Post by leonski on Sept 24, 2015 0:01:08 GMT -5
I wanted to get back to the OP and his problem. Apologies for the 'off track' above. Amps for a good Electrostat? They must be able to handle what is probably a pretty weird load in the highest octave or maybe more. 'Stats tend to do stuff like Drop in impedance and have high phase angles (reactance) so the partnering amp MUST be able to deal with those loads. The cone woofer below crossover of 425hz is a routine load for Any competent amp. The OTHER problem is one of setup which needs to be worked on before the equipment swapping nuttiness (potentially) begins. Please post back with any setup issues you discover or if you've got it 'nailed down'. TAKE NOTES as you move the speakers around. That'll probably help later if something changes or an amp / preamp change causes a change. www.stereophile.com/content/sound-lab-1-electrostatic-loudspeaker-measurements#myLdZutP3tHgdiWP.97Please click over to the measurements panel. The first graph shows IMPEDANCE and PHASE. Note where the lines cross at about 20khz. Now, this is not exactly a high-power place, but it is less than 1.5 ohms AND over 60 degrees. Few amps will be happy with that if those measures occur at lower frequencies. Or in the bass, heaven forbid. Most 'Stats will measure similar to these. They were 11,000$ or so, over 20 years ago. Measurements are more recent. |
|
|
|
Post by highfihoney on Sept 24, 2015 17:38:55 GMT -5
Mc has an amazing, Iconic look 2nd to none.I'm fairly certain you didn't feed your speakers 2kilowatts, but are quoting that number to try to freak me out. I'm not impressed, but DO realize that given 'normal' musical distribution of power, you MAY have been running 200 RMS with 10db crests. That'll give you 2kw SOME of the time. I've run my Magnepans with 500x2 of 'd' amp right up to mylar slap and DIDN'T pop the 4amp mid/tweet fuse. I was probably running 50 watts RMS with 500 watt peaks. With my cheesy meter I'd see maybe 30 to 35 volt peaks, but no peak-hold function. Panels are VERY low sensitivity and probably won't play as loud as a good dynamic driver system. Try your 2kw experiment with a Test Tone from any of the available discs. On 2nd thought, please DON'T. Or better still, plug it into the wall. A 15 amp circuit will ONLY put out 1.8kw, so you should be golden. Professional / sound reinforcement speakers are MUCH better able to tolerate high powers for long time periods. But still, when I was at Cal Jam 1, we DID see multiple speakers on the towers simply 'blow'. OOOPS! Im not trying to impress you but i'd hope you thought i was smart enough to not limit my amps output by feeding them with 15 amp lines ,.using the simple amps x volts = watts im getting 2440 watts from the 20 amp lines each amp has , put in the saftey margin of 85% continuous draw , line losses ect & im able to pull very close to 2kw from each power supply so the amps will easily achieve their max output , the 1,200 watt Mc-1201's will supply 4,800 watts short term peaks & the Mc-602 will supply 2,400 watts for short term peaks for a total of 1,800 8 ohm watts of amplification , not peak amplification ,so with those numbers im positive ive hit 2,000 watts used short term & atleast 1,800 watts long term, audioholics has bench tested every amp i own so i know they put out what they publish for specs , even my Emo amps do , my dbx eq's are used for room correction but if i were to boost the low bass a full 3 db ( bloated bass ) it wouldnt overdrive the amps or speakers at normal to loud listening levels , and this is where the op is lacking dynamics . On our small HT at this house the smaller line arrays rms is 300 watts for fronts & rears & both are able to operate at their max rms long term , even if i used a 3db boost in low bass ( which i dont , im sensitive in the high ranges & normally cut vs boost) it wouldnt overdrive the amps or the speakers at normal to loud listening levels because it isnt a solid wattage demand like a test tone , test tones arent real world applications for wattage demands because no band is a constant , well maybe rap musics droning beat so you might have something there if he digs rap . His speakers have an rms of 400 watts & his amp has an output of 400 watts continous , at loud levels he might be using 200 watts continous so a 3db increase in low bass ( if thats whats lacking ) is only gonna drive his amps output up to 400 watts which its rated for , i cant see a problem there . Im pretty sure all these issues covering db , spl & watts you & i have gone back n forth with are common knowledge & not a secret to the op so i cant see him having any issues that could harm his system by using the features his preamp has . If it was me & using the built in eq's loudness or bass boost corrects the lack of dynamic sound then its a no brainer vs buying more gear , truth be told his speakers should be ran with a sub , or stereo subs being their not strong in low bass to start with at 43hz & are very placement specific . Hey op , what have you tried so far to correct the sound ? Im curious as to what you've tried since starting this thread , you also never mentioned if your running a sub or subs in the system , give us an update please . |
|
|
|
Post by leonski on Sept 24, 2015 23:54:31 GMT -5
The problem is NOT the amps meeting spec. OK, a 20 amp line is good to about 2.4kw Now what? Sorry if I didn't know the minutia of the Big Mc amps and the need for 20 amp circuits. I've got ONE dedicated circuit for my amps and use the house circuit for
all the lower power stuff. Never had a breaker pop EXCEPT perhaps when I was running my Carver Cube which was nasty on power lines. And for a 200x2 amp, it had a 15 amp fuse. I suspect to handle the startup surge which was considerable.
If you have speakers you think can take 2kw, why NOT plug 'em into a 15 amp line? That's only 1.8kw and the speaker should take it, right?
I have NO idea about your short or long term REAL power usage. BUT, I DO know that unless you are listening to sine waves, you are unlikely to have 2kw short term AND 1.8kw long term. Musical 'crest factor', the difference between the loudest and average power may be only 10db to perhaps 20db. So, I repeat: 2000watt peaks and 200 watts continuous. That I can believe with lower sensitivity speakers or those capable of 120db output. I'd have to sit and do the math. And need to know more than I care to about your listening space.
Please read the article I linked you'll see WHY speaker power 'ratings' are fictional. Please don't forget that the insulation which might be rated to 200f or so may NOT be the limit. Some adhesives used to put internal speaker parts
together may not be rated that highly. Aluminum voice coil formers will take it, I'm sure, but Kapton? I don't know much about that stuff except it's fairly light and rigid, which makes it good for formers. I'm not going to hammer you on your numbers, though they are wrong. If the speakers are 400 watt rated, I might ask HOW the rating was arrived at? 401 watts for 30 seconds and they blow? NO INDUSTRY standards exist for that number. It is pure marketing hype. You could successfully use those MLs with your BIGGEST pair of MC and with perfect safety, too. Just do all the stuff you know to do. Like listen for distortion and whatever unique symptoms that 'Stats have. My planers have a symtom of overdrive called 'mylar slap'. That's the limit. And I have 2x200+ to EACH panel and crossed over about 600hz which is near to the 50:50 power distrubution in 'normal' music. I low CUT the panels about 50 or 60 hz, too, so I don't drive lots of power into them and let the sub do the heavy lifting. And add another 300watts or so.
As for 300 watts continuous into 300 watt 'rated' speakers 'long term' (let's say an hour to start?) imples 3kw peaks. Ain't gonna happen. My opinion, again? Turn off those wonderful Eye Candy meters and just enjoy. I've never sat and stared at Mc meters, so I don't know anything about their 'ballistics'. I know my OLD Tandberg Reel-2-reel had pretty lively meters on record but were to NAB standards on playback and had totally different ballistics.
And yes, the OP MAY end up with a sub. But only, IMO, after doing all his setup homework. Front wall diffusion for dipoles is a decent idea. (the wall in back of the speaker is the 'front'.) Some kind of bass trap corner treatment might later be indicated and don't forget, if he is sitting in a BASS NULL (say nearly mid length of the room and dead center) no amount of additional bass or bass boost will help. They are narrow enough in dispersion that first reflection point treatments might not be needed, but ALSO don't forget they are basically a line-array and couple into a room somewhat differently than wide dispersion dynamic 'box' speakers.
And you're probably right. 3db never killed anybody, to ruin a paraphrase from 'Used Cars', but just cranking it up while sitting in a null? bad juju. I wouldn't buy a sub until I KNEW I needed one. Also, I'd need to know the room VOLUME in cubic feet. My single 12" sub easily works into my VERY oddly shaped room of around 4500 cubic feet. And works well in max extension (can produce 16hz organ pedal tone) OR in max output mode where stuff like Jurassic Park will have you cowering in your seat.
And yes, 100% agree. Whas IS the OP doing between our bickering sessions? I'd like to know what progress he is or isn't making. What he has read on speaker setup, too. Maybe consult the Cardas website for dipole setup tips?
|
|
|
|
Post by garbulky on Sept 25, 2015 10:25:38 GMT -5
I think the OP has left the conversation.
|
|
