XDA-2 with or without preamp

[porkloindubois]

Good day, Emotivers. I at present have an XDA-1 as a preamp for the 2-channel system in the living room. I was thinking of adding a preamp so that I could turn the XDA-1 all of the way up to get around the "lossy" volume control. As I'm skeptical that a preamp could improve upon the material in, I'm thinking maybe an XDA-2 would be in order as they're pretty much giving them away at the moment.
Other than tone controls, which I don't really miss, if I have no plans to add any analog devices to my rather spartan system, is there any reason to have a preamp in line after a DAC?

[vcautokid]

You might want to try a Control Freak Passive Volume Control instead. Basically a well made, accurate tracking volume control off the outputs of your XDA-1 then out from the passive volume control to your amplifier. Cheap, and easy, and no additional large expense for a Preamplifier you might not need if the XDA-1 is your center of focus component.

emotiva.com/products/electronics/control-freak for more information. Balanced or Unbalanced single ended Control Freaks are available for your consideration. Hope this helps. In a minimalist system, the best Preamplifier is none at all. The Control Freak is a great solution to that goal.

[boomzilla]

Hi porkloindubois

I was in your shoes not too long ago. In theory, less is more, when talking about the electronic signal chain. I spent quite a while running the outputs of my XDA-1, XDA-2, and Oppo BDP-105 directly to my power amplifier(s). Eventually, my pals DYohn and garbulky persuaded me to try a preamplifier (in my case, an XSP-1, generation two).

For the first few hours, I wasn't too impressed & planned on sending the preamp back to Emotiva, but then either the preamp burned itself in and/or my ears adapted to the change in sound. What was the result? The audio became more dynamic and the imaging improved. I was skeptical at first, so I took the preamp back out, and the sound flattened out again - less dynamic and poorer imaging.

This was not due to the digital volume attenuation of the sources. At the time, I had amplifiers with volume knobs on the amplifiers themselves. So I tried BOTH running the amps at full gain with digital volume attenuation and then restricting the amplifier's volume while running the source DACs at full volume. The results were the same, regardless of which option I chose - Poorer sound without the active preamplifier in the system. I also briefly experimented with the Control Freaks (both balanced and un). The passive volume pots suffered the same shortcomings as using the DAC outputs directly to the power amps - inferior dynamics & poorer imaging.

I can only speculate on the cause. My best guess is that the output amps of the various DACs are not as robust as those on the active preamplifier. The preamp can, therefore, swing greater voltage and current into the power amp inputs. And of course, this speculation may be totally wrong. For a time, I briefly changed to an Audio Research tube preamplifier (LS-4a). The AR preamplifier provided the same benefits as the XSP-1 in my system. Nevertheless, an active preamplifier in my system DOES improve the sound quality (to my ears and in my room) and it does so consistently.

Boomzilla

PS: The previous comparison is NOT an apples-to-apples comparison. With the Emotiva preamp in the system, I used the (full-range) XLR outputs from my Oppo, but when driving the power amps directly from the Oppo, I used the RCA outputs in order to utilize the Oppo's bass management. Does this invalidate the "sounds better with a preamp" conclusion? I don't know. Were I in your shoes, though, I'd definitely risk the postage on an XSP-1 to see if you get a worthwhile improvement. If you don't think it worth the price, you can always ship it back.

[garbulky]

Howdy! I used an XDA-1 for many many years. It was one of my favorite pieces of audio gear. It had this intoxicating capability of creating this nearly holographic soundstage, Even now I occassionaly try it and enjoy that soundstage. And I too suffered with the lossy soundstage bit of the xda-1.
I've also used an XDA-2, DC-1, Oppo 105, USP-1 preamp, and XSP-1 preamp. And also both a UPA-2 and an XPA-2.

So on to the upgrade path.
The XDA-2: I waited for this unit for such a long time. It appeared to correct everything! A headphone jack. No lossy volume control. What's not to love?
Well I tried it out. Now before people get mad at me...the XDA-2 provides the same fantastic features as the XDA=1. Tons of input. Gorgeous looks. Headphone out etc etc.
But politely put the XDA-2 was not an upgrade. Now it did do treble more neutrally. The problem with the XDA-1 is that the treble (though it felt very extended and airy) actually has a glare to it. It is not noticeable until you jump up the chain. But yes there is a glare and it is noticeable. Its mid range also has a slight weakness to it like the treble has been slightly bumped up in. And by this I mean sometimes there is a lack of punch and slam where there should be. This by the way was mostly corrected with an XSP-1.

Anyway the XDA-2 has a better less glary treble. And that's about it. In terms of sound I felt it to be not very satisfying. The worst offender was honestly dynamics. Without a preamp. Lower level details were lost. A sense of microdynamics was just not there. For instance if I played the soung I noticed throughout the entire song the singers voice stayed the same volume. And so did the other instruments. This was really the problem for me. Where did the dynamics go. Where did the mid range whack of the drums go? For instance the audio quest dragonfly 1.4 does better at dynamics and low level detail. Though there is a slight lack of cohesion of the soundstage compared. But overall the dragonfly was more impressive. IN fact I found myself drawn back more to the XDA-1 due to its better ability towards creating a mroe satisfying sound despite the treble.

So all this to say...for me...the XDA-2 was not an upgrade but more of a lateral move.

Now I heard the Emotiva DC-1....
This has a long story to it. But OMG and a bag of chips! May I have another order of fries please?!
Now THIS was an upgrade. What a lovely DAC!
Read my gushing review here.

emotivalounge.proboards.com/thread/33501/garbulkys-review-love-female-voice
This did everything I was looking for in an UPGRADE.
First: The preamp was better connected directly to amp. No it wasn't as good as an XSP-1. But it was a noticeable step up from before. The soundstage was tighter more dynamic versus before. The instruments had more body to them.
Second: The details and overall cohesiveness of the soundstage was all that!
It has this uncanny ability to soundstage. Here's the difference. The XDA-1 could nicely put the instruments around you in space. The DC-1 could tie the instruments to each other and make them feel like they were playing in the same space. For instance if they were in a big hall, the soundstage ambience was more seamless. This I have to put down to better resolving capabilities and its better preamp stage.
There was more 3d body. Sometimes there was even the tiniest hint of height cues. One time with a choir I could actually hear the difference in the risers.
In some music videos of live performances I could hear the singer's voice starting in her throat. And then when she switched to singing more through the nasal cavities - a very subtle shift - when pronouncing syllables like ng and y you could hear the air almost shift to the nassal cavity. It was startling! Also instruments felt a lot more real. Not so much like a recording but closer to realism.

The headphone amp driving my difficult 300 ohm sennheiser HD 600 was significantly more capable than the one on the XDA-2 which wasn't really bad. But this one was more powerful.

So if you at all can...go straight for the DC-1. Even if you have to buy it used as Emotiva has a transferrable warranty. It's a steal right now.

For now the BEST sound I have ever heard has been this. And its important to put the two together.
It was
Oppo 105 and an XSP-1. This combo beat the DC-1 by a handy margin. But keep in mind it was the combo. So you'd be thinking close to a $2k price tag.
It also helped that there were dual PSA XV15 subwoofers and nicely resolving axiom m80 in there too. This was at B'zillas place.

So if budget is an issue, get yourself the DC-1. There is an improvement to be heard with an XSP-1.
I've also tried the USP-1 and an XPA-2. They both had upgrades though the USP-1 wasn't quite as "clean" as the DC-1 though it had better dynamics. But the biggest jump in sound I got for the money was the DC-1. And this:
www.atsacoustics.com/item--ATS-Acoustic-Panel-24-x-48-x-2--1001.html
One behind your couch wall at head level

[Kent]

I would put a good pre amp in the chain IMHO. Every system I've heard running direct from a source (including my own over the years) doesn't sound right. Put a good preamp between them and the music is back.

Simpler isn't always better in this case. I'm not a engineer but from what I understand the pre amp drives or amplifies the signal better to feed the power amp. I'm sure Lonnie could explain the technical reasons but really at the end of the day it's what sounds best.

[AudioHTIT]

I like vcautokid's suggestion of a Control Freak with your current setup, cheap and simple. However you lose remote volume control, if you can't give that up (I probably couldn't), then an XDA-2 makes a great digital preamp and after selling your XDA-1 you'd probably be into it for less than $100.

[ilok]

I'm using the XDA-2 right now, and it's volume control is perfect. Better than some $3000+ DAC in fact...

[garbulky]

I just want to second audioHTT that you can use the control freak. What I did to get around the remote issue is...I turned the XDA-1 volume to about 70. Then I turned the volume down using the control freak (I had a passive preamp at the time). Then I could use the remote control to adjust the volume.

[porkloindubois]

UPDATE:
Borrowed a Parasound P3 and hooked it up in different ways with different cables. In an A/B test using composite cables to the CD player and an optical cable to the Emotiva, the P3 was the clear winner - the various instruments/vocals became more separated and held their place in the soundstage more consistently.
The big disappointment cam when I hooked up the CD player through the DAC to the P3 and A/B'd that connection against a pair of composite cables from the player. Basically, the cheap DAC that comes built in to my old Sony outperformed the Emotiva.
My belief that the "loss" associated with the XDA-1's volume control is theoretical hokum that my ears would never hear was laid to rest as the differences between the Emotiva and the Parasound become more pronounced with lower volumes.
The XDA-1 will stay in place as a way to get the HT computer's coax output into the living room, but it won't be my preamp any more.

[Loop 7]

I'm in the group that thinks pre-amps help sources sound more right and decided my XDA-2 G2 really shined when connected to a UMC-200.