hemster
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...still listening... still watching
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Post by hemster on May 31, 2017 19:24:06 GMT -5
Anybody and @keithl Ive contacted Yamaha USA and inquired about a topic with my RX-A 3020 and after explaining my question was politely put on hold after which was told an upline tech would need to help me. I asked about Tidal support in the form of a software patch and was told that new models will get a Tidal patch but that my unit would not be supported, he claimed that the hardware most likely wouldn't support it. The 3020 does support streaming from othe services and did so with a resent patch. It also does hi resolution audio. Yamaha has recently put a new patch out but nothing was fixed that ill ever know about. The 3020 has always worked beautifully. I believe they just want to sell a newer unit and not support older ones, but I may be mistaken. I sure would like to know more then I do at this time. Any thoughts/help/ideas?.. Thanks in advance. So many things I miss from my XMC-1,,,,,,,,, What can I say, Nick? Despite those credentials that the Yammy sports, you shouldn't have sold that XMC-1. That was your moment of weakness. Unless you love all those sound fields and the HQV Vida video processor... and also wipeout... sorry, I mean YPAO.
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novisnick
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Post by novisnick on May 31, 2017 19:34:12 GMT -5
Anybody and @keithl Ive contacted Yamaha USA and inquired about a topic with my RX-A 3020 and after explaining my question was politely put on hold after which was told an upline tech would need to help me. I asked about Tidal support in the form of a software patch and was told that new models will get a Tidal patch but that my unit would not be supported, he claimed that the hardware most likely wouldn't support it. The 3020 does support streaming from othe services and did so with a resent patch. It also does hi resolution audio. Yamaha has recently put a new patch out but nothing was fixed that ill ever know about. The 3020 has always worked beautifully. I believe they just want to sell a newer unit and not support older ones, but I may be mistaken. I sure would like to know more then I do at this time. Any thoughts/help/ideas?.. Thanks in advance. So many things I miss from my XMC-1,,,,,,,,, What can I say, Nick? Despite those credentials that the Yammy sports, you shouldn't have sold that XMC-1. That was your moment of weakness. Unless you love all those sound fields and the HQV Vida video processor... and also wipeout... sorry, I mean YPAO. Sometimes there are things you have to do, Not a moment of weakness but a requirement. Sound is to my liking but some things can spoil a guy. Also, I dont use any type of correction ( YPAO or Dirac ) for two channel music. Don't use sound fields either, I also don't see Emotiva offering any type of direct streaming option. The Yamaha offers plenty in sound and connectivity, It just doesn't have a Emo Blue readout!
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novisnick
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Post by novisnick on May 31, 2017 19:39:03 GMT -5
I refuse to do a comparative study comparing the two, they both have strengths and weaknesses. Short; Yamaha/ conectivity, 11.2 with YPAO sounds very good with HT use now.,,,,,,,etc
Emotiva/ quick access to boost speaker sets and bass, love to hear Atmos with Dirac someday.,,,,,,etc
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Post by creimes on May 31, 2017 23:38:04 GMT -5
I refuse to do a comparative study comparing the two, they both have strengths and weaknesses. Short; Yamaha/ conectivity, 11.2 with YPAO sounds very good with HT use now.,,,,,,,etc Emotiva/ quick access to boost speaker sets and bass, love to hear Atmos with Dirac someday.,,,,,,etc I use Tidal through my Oppo, do you not do the same ? Chad
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novisnick
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Post by novisnick on May 31, 2017 23:47:48 GMT -5
I refuse to do a comparative study comparing the two, they both have strengths and weaknesses. Short; Yamaha/ conectivity, 11.2 with YPAO sounds very good with HT use now.,,,,,,,etc Emotiva/ quick access to boost speaker sets and bass, love to hear Atmos with Dirac someday.,,,,,,etc I use Tidal through my Oppo, do you not do the same ? Chad Yes I do use my Oppo but eventually I'll use the Yamaha in another system and want it natively. It would be nice. Pandora is already supported natively and it's really nice to watch the game and play music through the same system. With the Oppo I can not do the same.
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Post by creimes on May 31, 2017 23:51:52 GMT -5
I use Tidal through my Oppo, do you not do the same ? Chad Yes I do use my Oppo but eventually I'll use the Yamaha in another system and want it natively. It would be nice. Pandora is already supported natively and it's really nice to watch the game and play music through the same system. With the Oppo I can not do the same. Well processors are sort of like iPads, once deemed they cannot or do not want to update the older electronics that's what happens, plus like everyone knows we just go buy the newest and latest one then haha
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novisnick
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Post by novisnick on Jun 1, 2017 0:06:23 GMT -5
Yes I do use my Oppo but eventually I'll use the Yamaha in another system and want it natively. It would be nice. Pandora is already supported natively and it's really nice to watch the game and play music through the same system. With the Oppo I can not do the same. Well processors are sort of like iPads, once deemed they cannot or do not want to update the older electronics that's what happens, plus like everyone knows we just go buy the newest and latest one then haha Yes, perhaps but the just updated another streaming program for my Yamaha so I believe the processor has what it takes. It doesn't have the umph for Atmos though, I get that! OH well, I WONT be buying another Yamaha just because of lack of Tidal native support. I also dont like the fact that the newer units are using the Sabre DACs. Give me a Burr-Brown or Wolfson any day.
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Jun 1, 2017 5:57:30 GMT -5
Well processors are sort of like iPads, once deemed they cannot or do not want to update the older electronics that's what happens, plus like everyone knows we just go buy the newest and latest one then haha Yes, perhaps but the just updated another streaming program for my Yamaha so I believe the processor has what it takes. It doesn't have the umph for Atmos though, I get that! OH well, I WONT be buying another Yamaha just because of lack of Tidal native support. I also dont like the fact that the newer units are using the Sabre DACs. Give me a Burr-Brown or Wolfson any day. I think one of the best options for Tidal support, if one doesn't have it natively on some other device, is to use a NUC (essentially a tiny PC) with Windows 10 Pro and control it remotely via Windows Remote Desktop and use jRiver as the player, then run USB out to a DAC. If I didn't already have a larger PC, that's what I would be doing. I'll shortly either be updating my PC to W10Pro or using the patch that was suggested to me in another thread to enable native Windows Remote Desktop on W10 Home Edition. Mark
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Post by pedrocols on Jun 1, 2017 8:02:28 GMT -5
Yes, perhaps but the just updated another streaming program for my Yamaha so I believe the processor has what it takes. It doesn't have the umph for Atmos though, I get that! OH well, I WONT be buying another Yamaha just because of lack of Tidal native support. I also dont like the fact that the newer units are using the Sabre DACs. Give me a Burr-Brown or Wolfson any day. I think one of the best options for Tidal support, if one doesn't have it natively on some other device, is to use a NUC (essentially a tiny PC) with Windows 10 Pro and control it remotely via Windows Remote Desktop and use jRiver as the player, then run USB out to a DAC. If I didn't already have a larger PC, that's what I would be doing. I'll shortly either be updating my PC to W10Pro or using the patch that was suggested to me in another thread to enable native Windows Remote Desktop on W10 Home Edition. Mark This is pretty much how I currently have it set up but the driver for my DAC supports window7 so that's what I am using. My space isn't big so no need to remotely control the computer. I purchased the laptop used for $60. There isn't a need to get fancy here. Really.
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Post by foggy1956 on Jun 1, 2017 8:27:12 GMT -5
I think one of the best options for Tidal support, if one doesn't have it natively on some other device, is to use a NUC (essentially a tiny PC) with Windows 10 Pro and control it remotely via Windows Remote Desktop and use jRiver as the player, then run USB out to a DAC. If I didn't already have a larger PC, that's what I would be doing. I'll shortly either be updating my PC to W10Pro or using the patch that was suggested to me in another thread to enable native Windows Remote Desktop on W10 Home Edition. Mark This is pretty much how I currently have it set up but the driver for my DAC supports window7 so that's what I am using. My space isn't big so no need to remotely control the computer. I purchased the laptop used for $60. There isn't a need to get fancy here. Really. The harmony app on my tablet handles all of my jriver commands. It would be nice if tidal could be incorporated into jriver though
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Post by foggy1956 on Jun 1, 2017 8:36:26 GMT -5
I refuse to do a comparative study comparing the two, they both have strengths and weaknesses. Short; Yamaha/ conectivity, 11.2 with YPAO sounds very good with HT use now.,,,,,,,etc Emotiva/ quick access to boost speaker sets and bass, love to hear Atmos with Dirac someday.,,,,,,etc I use Tidal through my Oppo, do you not do the same ? Chad The oppo does not process the masters files, does it?
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Post by pedrocols on Jun 1, 2017 8:37:10 GMT -5
This is pretty much how I currently have it set up but the driver for my DAC supports window7 so that's what I am using. My space isn't big so no need to remotely control the computer. I purchased the laptop used for $60. There isn't a need to get fancy here. Really. The harmony app on my tablet handles all of my jriver commands. It would be nice if tidal could be incorporated into jriver though Tidal can however be incorporated into Sqieezlite. That's how I was streaming Tidal when I had vovortbox and previously a Squeezbox.
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novisnick
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Post by novisnick on Jun 1, 2017 9:09:17 GMT -5
I use Tidal through my Oppo, do you not do the same ? Chad The oppo does not process the masters files, does it? Nope! Must use a PC for Tidal Masters.
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Post by pedrocols on Jun 1, 2017 10:04:59 GMT -5
The oppo does not process the masters files, does it? Nope! Must use a PC for Tidal Masters. The DAC must also be able to decode the master files.
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Post by foggy1956 on Jun 1, 2017 10:31:44 GMT -5
Nope! Must use a PC for Tidal Masters. The DAC must also be able to decode the master files. I was under the impression, could be wrong, that the first layer was unfolded within the desktop app?
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jun 1, 2017 10:47:36 GMT -5
Errrr.... yes... and no. As usual... things have gotten rather more complicated and confusing. (It almost seems like they're deliberately trying to confuse everyone - doesn't it....?) The MQA process is now "officially" considered to be in two parts: - there is the "core part" which is the actual initial decoding - there is the "rendering" part which includes the optimization of the DAC for the process, and also some "additional unfolding" (I may not have gotten the terms exactly right - by this week's terminology). The gist of it is that MQA content must be decoded ("core decoding") then "unfolded" - but they can be done in different places. Some DACs do both, and so can "fully decode MQA" all by themselves. (As long as your player program can send the data to those DACs bit-perfect it should work.) HOWEVER, now the first step can be done in software (the latest Audirvana does it; the Tidal software does it; jRiver seems to have no plans to). This first step provides the basic decoding of the MQA content... and will work with any DAC. This step is supposed to be responsible for a large part of the "improvement in sound quality". There are also a new type of DAC which is referred to as "an MQA renderer". A renderer can do "the final stage of unfolding" but NOT "the core decoding". (So, if you buy a DAC that "supports MQA" you'd better find out which it is; a "renderer" will only work with certain software players.) So you now have multiple options for playing MQA: 1) You can just play your MQA file on ordinary equipment without MQA decoding 2) You can get a "full MQA DAC"and let it decode for you (this should work with any player that can pass a bit-perfect bitstream). 3) You can let something like Audirvana do the "core decode" and then play the "partially unfolded" audio on an ordinary DAC. 4) You can let something like Audirvana do the "core decode" and then play the result on an "MQA renderer" which will then do "the final unfolding" 5) and, of course, you can just forget the whole thing Note, however, that there's still no way to compare apples and oranges.... You can compare an MQA encoded file to itself with different decoding options. Or you can compare the MQA encoded version of a file to a different version (which may have been mastered differently or altered by the encoding process itself). (And we shouldn't forget the fancy stuff that's supposed to improve the sound of the master by fixing problems with the original in post-process.) HERE'S A REALLY NICE EXPLANATION OF THE (PLAYBACK) OPTIONS - COMPLETE WITH GLOSSY PICTURES, DIAGRAMS, AND ARROWSwww.audiostream.com/content/mqa-decoding-explainedAs far as I'm concerned, MQA is looking more and more like "another convoluted proprietary standard". I'm afraid I'm losing the enthusiasm to keep up with "the never-ending story of MQA" (call me when it's finally DONE !). (So you either hand them your money and trust them to give you something cool in return or... err... don't.) Nope! Must use a PC for Tidal Masters. The DAC must also be able to decode the master files.
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jun 1, 2017 10:50:37 GMT -5
Now you all see why we leave all that complicated and ever-changing stuff out of the XMC-1 .... and just suggest you buy something like a Roku to go with it.
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Jun 1, 2017 11:30:29 GMT -5
The oppo does not process the masters files, does it? Nope! Must use a PC for Tidal Masters. Which is what I use my PC for mostly...occasionally use it for jRiver to pull from my NAS - but unless I need Masters, a Sonos Connect is amazing as an interface. Mark
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novisnick
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Post by novisnick on Jun 1, 2017 11:33:49 GMT -5
Errrr.... yes... and no. As usual... things have gotten rather more complicated and confusing. (It almost seems like they're deliberately trying to confuse everyone - doesn't it....?) The MQA process is now "officially" considered to be in two parts: - there is the "core part" which is the actual initial decoding - there is the "rendering" part which includes the optimization of the DAC for the process, and also some "additional unfolding" (I may not have gotten the terms exactly right - by this week's terminology). The gist of it is that MQA content must be decoded ("core decoding") then "unfolded" - but they can be done in different places. Some DACs do both, and so can "fully decode MQA" all by themselves. (As long as your player program can send the data to those DACs bit-perfect it should work.) HOWEVER, now the first step can be done in software (the latest Audirvana does it; the Tidal software does it; jRiver seems to have no plans to). This first step provides the basic decoding of the MQA content... and will work with any DAC. This step is supposed to be responsible for a large part of the "improvement in sound quality". There are also a new type of DAC which is referred to as "an MQA renderer". A renderer can do "the final stage of unfolding" but NOT "the core decoding". (So, if you buy a DAC that "supports MQA" you'd better find out which it is; a "renderer" will only work with certain software players.) So you now have multiple options for playing MQA: 1) You can just play your MQA file on ordinary equipment without MQA decoding 2) You can get a "full MQA DAC"and let it decode for you (this should work with any player that can pass a bit-perfect bitstream). 3) You can let something like Audirvana do the "core decode" and then play the "partially unfolded" audio on an ordinary DAC. 4) You can let something like Audirvana do the "core decode" and then play the result on an "MQA renderer" which will then do "the final unfolding" 5) and, of course, you can just forget the whole thing Note, however, that there's still no way to compare apples and oranges.... You can compare an MQA encoded file to itself with different decoding options. Or you can compare the MQA encoded version of a file to a different version (which may have been mastered differently or altered by the encoding process itself). (And we shouldn't forget the fancy stuff that's supposed to improve the sound of the master by fixing problems with the original in post-process.) HERE'S A REALLY NICE EXPLANATION OF THE (PLAYBACK) OPTIONS - COMPLETE WITH GLOSSY PICTURES, DIAGRAMS, AND ARROWSwww.audiostream.com/content/mqa-decoding-explainedAs far as I'm concerned, MQA is looking more and more like "another convoluted proprietary standard". I'm afraid I'm losing the enthusiasm to keep up with "the never-ending story of MQA" (call me when it's finally DONE !). (So you either hand them your money and trust them to give you something cool in return or... err... don't.) The DAC must also be able to decode the master files. Thanks @keithl But really, thanks!😳
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novisnick
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Post by novisnick on Jun 1, 2017 11:49:53 GMT -5
So Yamaha could choose to have an older unit play Tidal weather or not it does so in one fasion or another but chooses not to. Software only can play some type of Tidal but not every type. I get that. Also newer units to play MQA will need hardware to play that type of encoding properly.
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