Just added 2 T1s to the new C1

[bborzell]

I bought these speakers (the T1s) because the C1 that I had installed a week earlier performed so much better than any center channel speaker I had previously tried in our home theater. As I said in another post, the clarity of spoken words through the C1 during movies was consistently outstanding for all film sources we played. Simply stated, the Airmotiv C1 turns mush mouth actors into reasonably decipherable communicators.

Something that revealed itself during the spoken word tests was the fact that the Energy Reference Connoisseur L/C/R speakers that were still on the left and right were not a good match for the C1. I'm not sure that tonal coloration is a good way to describe the perceived difference, but the clarity that allows the C1 to produce such clear speech was not a seemless match for the Energys. That was enough to justify ordering the T1s.

In addition to checking out the fit of the T1s with the C1 in my home theater, I also decided to consider them as alternatives to the Energy Pro Reference Connoisseurs that I have used for stereo listening for many years. These speakers were manufactured in the 1980s and, at the time, were selling for upwards of $3,000. They are in no way similar to the speakers that Energy has subsequently dubbed Reference Connoisseur although it was not surprising to me that Energy choose to capitalize on the near legendary reputation that the original RefConns attained.

I won't waste time here summarizing our listening of various CDs or SACDS because I believe that what I hear and may or may not prefer in musical reproduction is essentially meaningless to others. Do I like what I hear from the T1s in direct two channel mode? Yes, I do. The sound is clear and rich. It is detailed and warm at the same time although it is not as warm as the Energy Pro RefConns. I am guessing that the T1s will warm up as they play in as has been reported by others on this forum. That said, even if they do not change, I will still be satisfied.

There was an unanticipated surprise with the T1s. The overall improvement in center channel spoken word performance that I previously described with the C1 is actually enhanced with the addition of the T1s. The mid range driver augments the speech delivery of the center channel in a way that I have not experienced before. While all of the various L/R speakers that I have had in my home theaters over the years have recreated a slightly less distinct version of that which is produced by the primary speech center channel, they have not really augmented the overall clarity of speech. ;The effect does not appear to detract from left to right movement across the sound stage, but rather serves to make what is heard through the C1 a bit more clear. I don't know if the T1s were designed to help with "enunciation" but they really help the overall delivery of distinguishable dialogue.

It will be hard to part with the Energy Pro RefConns, but most of that decision will be emotional. I think that the T1s are pretty much all I need to have in the mix now.

[frenchyfranky]

Congrats and enjoy your new toys. I just saw in your signature that you have two set of Emo ERD-1 for side and rear surrounds, so please let us know how they blend together with your new airmotiv.

[craigl59]

Another excellent post; thanks for the information.

Will be completing a 5.1 system with T1s, C1, and E1s a week from now and will pass along my experiences. They will be placed in a fairly large room that is extremely live. Hoping that there is an advantage to matched speakers (= AMT based) all around.

Craig

[Deleted]

Sept 8, 2016 14:10:18 GMT -5 craigl59 said:

Another excellent post; thanks for the information.

Will be completing a 5.1 system with T1s, C1, and E1s a week from now and will pass along my experiences. They will be placed in a fairly large room that is extremely live. Hoping that there is an advantage to matched speakers (= AMT based) all around.

Craig

Should be great bang for the buck 5.1 system!  Yes, IMO having voice matched tweeters (same brand, same exact tweeter, model series) always makes an audible improvement.  Depending on how large your room and available side and rear wall space two more E1's could help in the future

I'm glad to see you are getting the E1 for your surrounds, side or rear whichever is best for your room (usually the side wall is best).  They should be best on the wall, up 2 feet or more above ear level if possible.

Let us know your impressions and what amp(s) you are using.  OK, I see you have two XPA-1L, UMC-200 and an HSU sub, excellent!  I would not let the auto setup set the mains 5 speakers (including the L&R T1's) to large/full range (small is preferable if you are using the sub) as this will make the lower bass boomy and not articulate where the sub cuts in like below 80Hz.

[craigl59]

Thanks as always, CN!

The gear you mentioned is what I use in the summer place. The 5.1 setup with the new Airmotiv speaker set is for a winter place where the supporting cast will include an XPA5, an Oppo 103D, and the transplanted UMC-200. All of my setups use Furman line cleaners and have found that the Elite-15pfi is ideal for controlling turn-on and sequencing duties; the extra capacitor power allows amplifiers to surge nicely with source peaks.

Have always wondered about delays and/or phase issues caused by much longer cables required by the back wall speakers -- cannot do side walls because of the room configuration. Few of the SACDs I have provide much rear channel information but have noted some prominent data there in BluRay releases of well-recorded orchestral concerts such as the Leipzig Gewandhaus ones (=Chailley conducting).

Have you gone to the trouble of an Atmos setup? Looks like a lot of work...

[Deleted]

Sept 8, 2016 20:26:50 GMT -5 craigl59 said:

Thanks as always, CN!

The gear you mentioned is what I use in the summer place. The 5.1 setup with the new Airmotiv speaker set is for a winter place where the supporting cast will include an XPA5, an Oppo 103D, and the transplanted UMC-200. All of my setups use Furman line cleaners and have found that the Elite-15pfi is ideal for controlling turn-on and sequencing duties; the extra capacitor power allows amplifiers to surge nicely with source peaks.

Have always wondered about delays and/or phase issues caused by much longer cables required by the back wall speakers -- cannot do side walls because of the room configuration. Few of the SACDs I have provide much rear channel information but have noted some prominent data there in BluRay releases of well-recorded orchestral concerts such as the Leipzig Gewandhaus ones (=Chailley conducting).

Have you gone to the trouble of an Atmos setup? Looks like a lot of work...

XPA-5, great!  Oppo, great!  Emo pre-pro great, I own them.  I also have a Furman Elite (15DMi), well built machine.  The length of speaker wire for rear surrounds shouldn't have any effect as long as you have proper gauge zip cord or other speaker wire, nothing expensive needed.   The length has no noticeable effect on the speed of the signal thru the speaker wire.  For example, you do not need the wires to the LCR fronts or the L&R surrounds to be the same length or even close.  They only need to be the appropriate gauge.  You could have 6' to the R,  10' to the C,  14' to the L, 20' to the RS and 30' to the LS with no issue using adequate gauge.   

Many SACD's have only some some natural reflective ambient sounds in the surround channels.  For example, if you listen live to a small Jazz band in a club you will experience some of the sound bounce off the side and rear walls.  That is what you should hear from a well produced SACD of the same performance.  If you were to suddenly turn off the surrounds you would experience the sound collapse to the front LCR's.  Of course many SACD's contain rear crowd noise or other natural rear channel sounds including from a movie sound track.  In a 2 channel CD of that same Jazz performance there will be little rear effects depending on your L&R speakers and the recording.   What I do and some purist alcoholics audioholics are horrified, is to most of the time when I playback 2 channel music is to leave my 5.1 system on and use the latest DSP Dolby Pro Logic processing.   I've done many A/B comparisons and about 80-90% of the time I prefer the multi-channel  Dobly DSP for 2 channel sources.   All 5 speakers being voice matched is again here very important.     Unfortunately a lot is dependent on the quality of the recording.  There are plenty of awful recordings in music and movies.  Lousy center channel dialog in movies is one of my pet peeves.

Many Blu-Rays and SACD's can be superb including large orchestral performance recordings.  If you have carefully set the 5 speaker output levels to exactly the same, you should be set, except to raise the C or Surrounds levels for specific sources as personally desired.

 I have my Emo ERD-1 surrounds up high on the rear wall (no sides work for my room).  That gives me a great and natural sounding surround spread.  Most music and movies in a theater or club, arena, etc. bounce the rear sound of the side and rear walls up high, not at ear level.  That is why I don't like ear level surround speakers pointed at the listeners ears.  My system plays back over head effects like the Japanese Zero planes in the Pearl Harbor movie oh so realistically sounding.  IMO Atmos might be great for theaters but not necessary for homes, an unnecessarily hyped component with extra speakers needed (great for sales).   Many folks have mis-matched and underpowered speakers, poorly located mains and surrounds, lousy sub(s), mains set to full range and other mortal sins.  They think Atmos is going to make their HT system state of the art.  

Looks to me like you are going to have a super best bang for the buck system .          (Go Emo!)

[craigl59]

Sept 9, 2016 0:16:10 GMT -5 @tllfkacn said:

XPA-5, great!  Oppo, great!  Emo pre-pro great, I own them.  I also have a Furman Elite (15DMi), well built machine.  The length of speaker wire for rear surrounds shouldn't have any effect as long as you have proper gauge zip cord or other speaker wire, nothing expensive needed.   The length has no noticeable effect on the speed of the signal thru the speaker wire.  For example, you do not need the wires to the LCR fronts or the L&R surrounds to be the same length or even close.  They only need to be the appropriate gauge.  You could have 6' to the R,  10' to the C,  14' to the L, 20' to the RS and 30' to the LS with no issue using adequate gauge.   

Many SACD's have only some some natural reflective ambient sounds in the surround channels.  For example, if you listen live to a small Jazz band in a club you will experience some of the sound bounce off the side and rear walls.  That is what you should hear from a well produced SACD of the same performance.  If you were to suddenly turn off the surrounds you would experience the sound collapse to the front LCR's.  Of course many SACD's contain rear crowd noise or other natural rear channel sounds including from a movie sound track.  In a 2 channel CD of that same Jazz performance there will be little rear effects depending on your L&R speakers and the recording.   What I do and some purist alcoholics audioholics are horrified, is to most of the time when I playback 2 channel music is to leave my 5.1 system on and use the latest DSP Dolby Pro Logic processing.   I've done many A/B comparisons and about 80-90% of the time I prefer the multi-channel  Dobly DSP for 2 channel sources.   All 5 speakers being voice matched is again here very important.     Unfortunately a lot is dependent on the quality of the recording.  There are plenty of awful recordings in music and movies.  Lousy center channel dialog in movies is one of my pet peeves.

Many Blu-Rays and SACD's can be superb including large orchestral performance recordings.  If you have carefully set the 5 speaker output levels to exactly the same, you should be set, except to raise the C or Surrounds levels for specific sources as personally desired.

 I have my Emo ERD-1 surrounds up high on the rear wall (no sides work for my room).  That gives me a great and natural sounding surround spread.  Most music and movies in a theater or club, arena, etc. bounce the rear sound of the side and rear walls up high, not at ear level.  That is why I don't like ear level surround speakers pointed at the listeners ears.  My system plays back over head effects like the Japanese Zero planes in the Pearl Harbor movie oh so realistically sounding.  IMO Atmos might be great for theaters but not necessary for homes, an unnecessarily hyped component with extra speakers needed (great for sales).   Many folks have mis-matched and underpowered speakers, poorly located mains and surrounds, lousy sub(s), mains set to full range and other mortal sins.  They think Atmos is going to make their HT system state of the art.  

Looks to me like you are going to have a super best bang for the buck system .          (Go Emo!)
CN:
These kinds of informed responses are what make the Community approach towards information sharing so useful; thanks CN.These are my recent experiences with cabling. A standard dictate you hear a good bit is that the L/R and Center speakers should have the same lengths. I have not noticed much audible difference following this equal-length method. HOWEVER, have noticed a significant difference with thicker/quality speaker wires and always go for the maximum, conforming gauges (looks be damned). My rear channels in the winter place are some 50+ feet of cable (up in the attic and over) and, so, do generate additional capacitance/resistance -- even at line levels. Have measured in studio environments the effect this will have on phase and it will make a difference -- one that you can see in a DAW waveform as vertical displacement and hear as delay or reverb. This effect is more prominent (and troubling) with mic line cables (even at 48 volts phantom) than with line level ones.Recently, I replaced the line-level XLR cables going from a Stealth DC-1 to two Stealth 6 monitors in my study (both are balanced). The original cables were average quality XLR cables (not quad core). These were replaced with Belden 1800F XLRs from Blue Jeans Cable. The improvement was significant, even though the lengths were only 8 feet each. Generally, the sound was a bit more detailed but much more transparent. Based on similar experiences, I have come to the belief that quality interconnects and speaker wiring are one of the less expensive ways to improve your final audio result. As a result, I use Belden 1800F whenever possible although I grant you that the difference in very short connects (2-3 feet) is minimal.And, speaking of "best bang for your buck" have been an audiophile for 45 years and, sadly, go back much further than the Quadriphonic revolution (remember that one?). As such, I follow the precept of "90% of the quality for 35% of the price." Have two garages full of older equipment that has been retired for one or another reason. Fortunately, they occasionally become useful and are resurrected...if not, it's time for the yearly Goodwill trip.

[Deleted]

Thanks Craig for your thoughts on speaker connectors.  This is where we part ways, but that is part of this hobby.  Your 45 years and my 48 years mean we both have learned a lot and obviously disagree at times.  I only consider very tightly controlled A/B Blind tests on speaker wires.  No sound difference based on length if the gauge is OK (that's an important if).   

Audioholics says:   There are NO reasons why cable lengths between channel pairs (ie. Main Left, Main Right, Rear Left, Rear Right, etc) need to be kept identical, but avoiding a ratio greater than 5:1 of identical wire gauge is good measure for minimizing RLC losses which can affect system damping factor and attribute to frequency response variations.

This quote is only to support my mention about speaker wires (there are plenty of quotes on both sides), but no intention to begin a speaker wire discussion is this OP/bborzell's thread.  I'll leave it at that and I sincerely hope you are thrilled with the new system.

Chuck  

[craigl59]

Agree that it is not a good idea to redirect this thread's emphasis and also suggest that there is not much disagreement between our approaches. Perhaps another thread will emerge that focuses attention on cabling -- for some time I have wondered whether companies like Emotiva are developing high-quality wireless alternatives.